CARROG in 4mm & Ruabon discussion...

[kandc_au]

Erm....I'm not sure what you mean.  

PM'd you.

[Captain Kernow]

Whittling a bit of Plastikard is often adequate for some jobs....

I agree, Larry. I'm impressed by some of the signalbox interior kits around, but I've found it just as easy, time-wise, to make a few bits of furniture and interior fittings up from plasticard, as opposed to going out/searching on-line, finding and buying something. Your token instruments are very impressive.

[The Stationmaster]

I am sure i have seen distant signals on the Llangollen line Mike.  Can't recall if they were fixed though.

 

There are several possibilities Larry but I'm sure there will be distant signals there.

 

The GWR approach (which was changed by BRWR for new work only in some instances in the early 1960s when lines were being newly singled) was to use a fixed distant for single line crossing stations (except where a 'straight' route was available with the 'box switched out or sometimes even with it in circuit - but they only really appeared in new work from around the 1930s).  So the 'new' Carrog could possibly have worked distants if the preservationists have taken that approach.

 

Otherwise the major use of worked distants on GWR single lines was as gate distants for level crossings - where it was the standard procedure to use a worked distant if the level crossing was not at a crossing loop.

[The Stationmaster]

According to the sketch on the signalling Record Society site Carrog c1913 had working distants.

The Stationmaster's archive of GWR documents may tell us if there was long and short section working on the line at that time.

 

Possibly not at that time converted to Fixed Distants (which is incidentally the case at the preserved Carrog - the distants are Fixed At Caution I have now ascertained).

 

Now we get into the intricacies of GWR signalling which I trust Larry will excuse me venturing into, please.  The GWR attitude to the provision and working of distant signals change considerably in the period around the time of the Great War and one major effect of this was the near total removal of splitting distants - irrelevant here of course.

 

However things had also changed on single lines.  Superintendent of the Line's Circular 1623 of 1906 stipulated that where there was a permanent reduction of speed to 15 mph or less between the Distant Signal and a Home, Starting, and Advanced Starting Signals the distant signal was to kept permanently at danger (i.e. at caution in later/our parlance).  This remained the case until December 1958 (to update my previous post) when in the case of alterations and new works OTHER THAN ON SINGLE LINES a worked distant was to be provided and was not to be kept at caution for the restriction of speed.  This remained the case in 1960 but I am aware that when our local branch was singled in 1961 the distant signals at the intermediate crossing station remained as worked distants.  Alas I can't trace the official date for the ending of the need for fixed distants at crossing stations on single lines but it had definitely gone by 1966 on single lines and of course in any case existing lever frames were never altered except in connection with new works (as on our local branch).

 

Incidentally there is some ambiguity in the matter of where the restriction to 15 mph or lower was and some sources have said that it was within Station Limits (i.e. between the Home Signal and the most Advanced Starting Signal) and didn't apply to the line between the Distant Signal and the Home Signal.

 

Now back to how this affected single line crossing stations - well the important factor, apart from the likelihood of trains crossing, was that the speed for hand exchange of tokens etc was officially limited to 10mph so even if a train had no reason to stop its speed would still not (officially) exceed 10 mph at the crossing station.  I've also got something in my mind from way back that the maximum turnout speed on pointwork at GWR crossing station was 15mph but I can't find the reference to confirm it.

 

And back to SE's note about Carrog - in my view the diagram on the SRS site reflects the situation before the Distant Signals were fixed at Danger (Caution) and while I know the general subject was under discussion on the GWR in 1915 I can't any specific reference to such work being done at single line crossing stations but it appears in fact to have started as early as 1906.

 

Sorry to pinch your bandwidth Larry.

[Stubby47]

If the fixed distant signal indicated a maximum line speed of 15mph, why were simple speed limit signs not used instead ?  Were the fixed distants easier to see ?

 

But given the route knowledge of the drivers, they would know where the fixed distant / speed limit signs were anyway, so what was the advantage of fixed signals over speed limits ?  

Edited July 3, 2017 by Stubby47

[Captain Kernow]

If the fixed distant signal indicated a maximum line speed of 15mph, why were simple speed limit signs not used instead ?  Were the fixed distants easier to see ?

 

But given the route knowledge of the drivers, they would know where the fixed distant / speed limit signs were anyway, so what was the advantage of fixed signals over speed limits ?  

Mike will no doubt answer this in more detail, but in overall 'railway operational philosphy' terms, and especially in a modern day context, there is a trend towards not trusting drivers to necessarily observe the speed restriction correctly, and thus impose an additional safeguard. I particularly used to notice this after accidents or incidents, where the operating parameters would be progressively tightened, such as the removal of passenger permissive working in the platforms at some SW stations, following a rear-end collision at Newton Abbot in 1994. There was a properly functioning GPS signal that, when cleared, would indicate to the driver that the platform was already occupied, but because a driver was deemed to have either ignored or 'overlooked' the aspect he had just received (partly due to the distance of the GPS signal from the platform and the curvature of the line), it was deemed safer to ban passenger permissive working altogether. Of course that brought about certain timetable planning and other operational problems, due to not being able to make same platform connections for example, which in turn could be argued to have increased other types of risk.

[andyram]

Two great videos.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks for that Mike. Incidentally, I thought it was 'Speed not to exceed 15mph' for token exchange... 

 

GWR General Appendix stated 10mph for hand exchanges, 15 mph where exchanging apparatus was in use.  The same speeds also applied on the WR in 1969.

 

If the fixed distant signal indicated a maximum line speed of 15mph, why were simple speed limit signs not used instead ?  Were the fixed distants easier to see ?

 

But given the route knowledge of the drivers, they would know where the fixed distant / speed limit signs were anyway, so what was the advantage of fixed signals over speed limits ?  

 

The GWR Rules also applied to temporary speed restrictions and required a distant signal to be kept at caution for a temporary restriction anywhere between that signal and the most advanced starting signal at that signalbox - that one was done away with in 1949.  The GWR approach was undoubtedly a matter of 'belts and braces' in that, as explained, the Distant Signal was used to remind Drivers of severe restrictions of speed and it might well have been a consequence of an incident or derailment although I've never seen anything to link it to one (but I know where to look if I ever come across the relevant minute books).

 

The other thing about it was that almost inevitably at most single line crossing stations at one time or another the distant couldn't be cleared anyway so it was also a safety feature which potentially saved money.

 

Back in the day, or rather the early days and into the 20th century Drivers were expected to know the road which meant among other things nothing where any restrictions of speed were and duly observing them and very few if any such restrictions were marked.  There was a move shortly after WWI among the railway companies to consider a standardised way of indicating places where speeds were restricted fir whatever reason but it appears to have never resulted in any sort of final agreement.  The GWR had its own type of indicator, illuminated at night, which was relatively limited in application and appeared only (as far as I've ever come across evidence) on mainline routes and even then not in respect of every restriction.  Standardisation, and standardisation of what restrictions were to be marked didn't appear until BR days and as the good Cap'n has indicated such things have received ever greater attention over the years - mainly as a consequence of derailments where speeds have not been properly observed (e.g. Morpeth).  Drivers are nowadays given far more in the way of lineside reminders than was ever the case even 60 years ago

[Captain Kernow]

Drivers are nowadays given far more in the way of lineside reminders than was ever the case even 60 years ago

I still sometimes struggle (being of an old-fashioned frame of mind) with the concept of 'reminder' signs for drivers - to remind them that there is a certain signal ahead, for example.

 

I thought that that was what the distant (or repeater) signal was for.

 

I do hope that they draw the line at installing reminders for reminder boards, though.

[Focalplane]

There is a potential "Cry wolf" scenario with too much signage. Traffic signs are far worse offenders, the roundabout at the crossing of the A40 and A429 Fosse Way in the Cotswolds has signs saying New Roundabout Ahead. Except the roundabout is far from new. And to whom is such a sign designed for? First time visitors would not know the difference, locals probably don't even notice the sign.

 

But I digess. The sound movies are excellent. They were available on my Youtube channel very quickly, possibly before you uploaded them. I am looking forward to your Ivatt 2MT with an 8F sound chip installed!

 

Paul

[Liam]

I still sometimes struggle (being of an old-fashioned frame of mind) with the concept of 'reminder' signs for drivers - to remind them that there is a certain signal ahead, for example.

 

I thought that that was what the distant (or repeater) signal was for.

 

I do hope that they draw the line at installing reminders for reminder boards, though.

WARNING: YOU HAVE JUST PASSED THE REMINDER BOARD.

[Focalplane]

Back to the distant signals on the Ruabon Barmouth line.  My signal box diagram from 1936 (courtesy of Daifly) shows distant signals at each end of the passing loop but neither is numbered and so I assume they were fixed.  Photos from the 1950s don't include these two distant signals.  There is also no evidence of any connection between signal box and the western distant signal in photos taken looking in that direction past the last home signal, located by the engine shed.

[The Stationmaster]

I have been viewing some video taken from Llangollen's  BR 2-6-4T footplate a week or two ago and the distant signals are all fixed although made from working components. There were no yellow handles in Llangollen Signalbox so I will paint mine white now as Stationmaster suggested recently. 

 

White or red Larry - in fact red might be better and absolutely believable.

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Larry, having a YouChoos 4F chip myself, to me, this will always be associated with the 4F and no other loco. I don't like the whistle echo though. I know you like Zimo decoders but SW Digital do one on an ESU Loksound for the mogul with only some generic input and a choice of whistles. Unable to find video of one with this decoder.

[Focalplane]

Larry

 

Join the club, a parcel from Modelu3D simply disappeared weeks ago. Anither repacement part from Dapol is overdue.

 

I am now delaying all my 7mm purchases until Gauge O Guild Telford on September 2nd. See it, buy it, take it away!

 

Paul

[UnauthorisedCinnamon]

Yodel are terrible. Amazon logistics aren't any better.

Poor drivers get paid per delivery so sometimes end up working until all hours of the night to get deliveries done and usually end up below minimum wage due to going over hours

Lost count of the number of parcels I've lost to overworked delivery drivers rushing to make ends meet.

 

I would quite happily pay a couple of quid extra for ParcelForce 

[UnauthorisedCinnamon]

Are we now on the 3rd or 4th re-lay of the yard? I've lost track! (heh)

[Andrew P]

Will you be cutting your Nipples off Larry?  I mean the ends of the Tie Bar that stick up!

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Nice idea, using re-coloured photos of roofing felt!

 

 

Gaugemaster also sells something similar, or did?

[Focalplane]

Necessity is truly the mother of invention!

[St Enodoc]

Nice idea, using re-coloured photos of roofing felt!

 

 

Gaugemaster also sells something similar, or did?

DCC Concepts certainly do:

 

https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-tiebar-labels-12-pack/

 

Usual disclaimer.

[St Enodoc]

Well I go to foot of our stairs.........There's me wondering why nothing had been done about those solenoid cavities.  

Yours are of course considerably cheaper.

[Focalplane]

My nearest model shop only sells RTP HO stuff so I like the idea of making up one's own solution to a problem.  Apart from anything else I think it keeps me young!  Since I started serious scratch building I have never had so much fun.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Of course....other colour than red are also available!

 

 

I must agree that scanning and photoshop are very useful tools!

 

 

Posters and poster boards, signs, etc. etc.....

[Brinkly]

Looks good Coach, what program did he produce the plan on? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Nick