Hornby Sentinel on dead frog points

[Julian]

I'm planing a new micro layout. To save space, I'm thinking of using a Hornby Sentinel diesel shunter and Peco's Set-TRack points and diamond crossing, both "dead frog". Has anyone had experience of using this loco on dead-frog turnouts/crossings as the short wheelbase of the loco leads me to think it may stall on them. Thanks for any advice offered.

[ejstubbs]

My experience with Setrack is that even 0-6-0s can frequently stall on the dead frog points.  I'd expect 0-4-0s to be even more susceptible.

 

What kind of layout are you planning?  If it's not much more than a fan of sidings - ie no passing loops, crossovers or circuits - then you don't even need IRJs to be able to use electrofrog points.  If you're happy to rely on switch blade contact to energise the frogs (there are people on here who will swear by this, others who decry it) then you don't need any external wiring either.  Crossings can be less straightforward (AFAIK Peco only do electrofrog crossings in Code 75).

[imt]

My experience with Setrack is that even 0-6-0s can frequently stall on the dead frog points.  I'd expect 0-4-0s to be even more susceptible.  .....

 

 

Seconded - my 03 (small wheelbase 0-6-0 diesel shunter) will not perform well enough on Peco medium Streamline with live frogs whilst my 08's are OK. I simply wouldn't try an 0-4-0.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't, but be aware.  I certainly use unadulterated electrofrogs - just remember to use insulating rail joiners on the frog

[DCB]

You are asking for trouble using dead frog set track points.   Live frog is definitely the way to go with DC,   DCC is not so clear cut.

 

Set track is great fun when used correctly, as in kept in a box and spread out on the floor when you are 10 years old and your mates come round, or the wrong side of 50 in my case.

 

Streamline points actually take up less space than SetTrack, especially the small Y as the track centres are closer and they come with live frogs as standard.

 

I have live frogged set track, including Triang Super 4, I have chopped Peco set track points and plain track around to reduce track centres and generally mutilated it ruthlessly, but its a lot of fiddle, and expensive as the old track was steel and the decent N/S fairly recent.

 

The point to avoid on shunting layouts is the diamond, all sizes, small large and set track, all are a nightmare to live frog and a sure recipe for stalling, even 2-8-0s stall on mine despite being live frogged, small flange wheels drop into the rail gaps, .

[Ventnor]

I have an MSC Sentinel and yes, it stalls or stutters on the set track points on my kids layout. Curved points are the worst. A symptom of a short wheelbase, light weight and a dead section of track. Hope this helps.

[ejstubbs]

Streamline points actually take up less space than SetTrack, especially the small Y as the track centres are closer and they come with live frogs as standard.

 

Track centres may be closer but the points themselves are actually longer; even the small radius Streamline points are 184mm long, rather than 168mm for the Setrack ones.  Not a huge amount in the grander scale of things but may need to be taken into account in the context of a micro layout - though in that context, the closer track centres are very likely a good thing.

 

The Code 100 Streamline points do not come "as standard" with live frogs; they come in live (Electrofrog) and dead (Insulfrog) versions, the live frog ones being denoted by an "E" prefixing the numeric element of the product code.  For example: SL-91 is a Code 100 Insulfrog small radius right-hand turnout, and SL-E91 is the Electrofrog version of the same turnout.  For the OP's purposes the live frog versions are definitely to be preferred - although no live frog crossings are available in Code 100.

 

If the OP chooses Code 75 then those do indeed come with live frogs as standard - though they still have the "E" prefix despite no dead frog versions being made (except for crossings, which are available with both live and dead frogs in Code 75).

Edited April 19, 2017 by ejstubbs

[Julian]

Thanks folks. Yes, I normaily use Code 75 with live frog points but just happen to have a few set-track ones and they seem to save the odd inch of two, which I wanted for this wee micro. Having done some tests, my Bachmann Pannier seems to cope with the dead frogs but maybe that's more luck than anything else!

[DCMarvel]

If you are not doing a 'shunting puzzle' micro layout you could always hard wire a truck with pickups to the loco if it is feasible to never need to uncouple the first truck or carriage.

[rue_d_etropal]

The usual poor advice. Sorry but no problem with dead frogs and small locos. Far far easier, assuming you are using modern Peco points.

For shunting layouts two pieces of advice from my experience, including exhibition layouts.

 

Frstly wire up points so you are NOT dependent on tips of blades conducting power(similar to way DCC do it). This is standard continental practce, and Peco points used to have a small slot under sleeper, suggesting it was considered  by Peco. It is only when I have not hard wired my points, that I have problems.

 

Second piece of advice, is clean track, and best way for a shunting layout is to buy a carbon stick or carpenter's pencil, and rub the graphite onto the clean rail surface. This stops the dirt getting in, and improves pickup considerably. many narrow gauge modellers use it as standard. It works.

It does make the rail slippery, so if you have gradients or heavy trains, it does not work as well.

The graphite will also get into the pickups, helping there as well.

 

On the whole modern models run very smoothly, and some have a large worm drive, which acts as a mini flywheel, and keeps loco moving across small gaps. Bachmann are better at that than Hornby, but I have a number of Hornby 2BIL motor bogies I have tested across dead frog points, just on their own and no problem. Only bogies I have problems are the ones with traction tyres as they upset balance,and it is balance that is important.

 

So one piece of advice, to the live frog fraternity, just try some of the current Peco dead frog points, with modern r2r models, and see how well they actually run.

Edited April 20, 2017 by rue_d_etropal

[davknigh]

So called dead frog or "insulfrog" points were intended for train sets that were operated at speed with long wheelbase engines in a limited space. IMHO they should be towed out to sea and sunk. For reliable operation with 0-4-0 locomotives you need clean, flat track and engines that either sit absolutely square on their wheels or some form of springing/compensation to ensure that all wheels make contact with the rail. Reliable pickups on the engines also help along with the other hints given by previous posters.

 

HTH

 

David

[DCB]

So called dead frog or "insulfrog" points were intended for train sets that were operated at speed with long wheelbase engines in a limited space. IMHO they should be towed out to sea and sunk. For reliable operation with 0-4-0 locomotives you need clean, flat track and engines that either sit absolutely square on their wheels or some form of springing/compensation to ensure that all wheels make contact with the rail. Reliable pickups on the engines also help along with the other hints given by previous posters.

 

HTH

 

David

To be fair Set track is great when you tip a whole box full out on the floor and build a layout around the sofa, behind the TV and out into the kitchen, or around the patio on a dry day.   Perfectly ballasted, bus barred, bonded code 75 track is great but the owners of the holiday lets do get a bit miffed when they find the holes from the track pins in the parquet floor and ballast stuck to the fitted carpets.

[NickC]

Note that The length of the insulated section on Hornby set track express points and curved points is longer that the wheelbase of the Peckett (and possibly the Sentinel) meaning it is impossible for a Peckett to cross these set track points without stopping!

[The Johnster]

Short wheelbase 0-4-0s are particularly sensitive to track laid other than to a very high standard of level and smoothness, irrespective of the liveness or otherwise of your frogs.  I use insulfrog Peco Streamline turnouts (not setrack) for electrical simplicity and have no running problems with them at slow speeds, despite the dead frogs being longer than setrack dead frogs; this is with 0-6-0s with pickup on the leading and trailing wheels only, so effectively long wheelbase 0-4-0s in pickup terms.  I have no need of 0-4-0s on my layout, but would be happy that one would run smoothly at low speeds if I did!

 

Now, this is not a particularly intuitive statement in view of the above comments, as surely if your Pecketts and Sentinels are stalling on setrack points they should be more, not less, prone to stalling on the longer dead frogs of Streamline, but I think that the sharper curves of setrack turnouts tend to push the sideplay of axles to the limit, which may take wheel backs out of proper contact with the pickups, resulting in a stall in the curved direction.  

 

My advice, FWIW, would be to use live frogs if space and your wiring abilities permit, but otherwise, if you are using insulfrogs, as you will be forced to using setrack, then make sure that turnouts are laid level, fixed firmly, and flow smoothly with the adjoining track.  I would try to avoid reverse curves as far as possible, keep everything meticulously clean (track, wheel treads and backs, pickups, and the blade/stockrail connections on the turnouts), and cram as much weight into the Sentinel's body as you can.  Make certain when you are laying the track that none of the dead frogs coincide with the Sentinel's wheelbase, as that will take all the pickup wheels 'offline' simultaneously and a dead stall is inevevitable!

 

I lay track directly to the baseboard, flat and making sure there is no dust, grit, or other obstacle between it and the board.  I fix it with pva glue, as I do not like track fixing pins which, if over enthusiastically driven in, can pull the rails out of gauge and level, and do not fix properly unless they are firmly in; they are useful, I concede, to hold track in place while the pva is going off.  Obviously, keep pva away from the tie bars or anything else that moves on turnouts.  Do not use foam underlay, which is Satan's vomit; it will look dreadful on a shunting layout anyway and allows track to float, which might be good for eliminating noise but is exactly what you don't want for reliable pickup!

 

Make absolutely sure that the loco's wheels are running true and that all 4 sit on a level surface such as a sheet of glass, without rocking, and that the back2backs are correct; they should be on a brand new model but things are not always what they should be...

 

Reliable slow running is important on any layout, but particularly on a micro shunting layout.  You should be able to achieve this with your Sentinel, but care in track laying will pay off; keep things level and if you must have inclines, keep them away from the turnouts or diamond crossings, avoid dog legs at track joins, and that the dead frogs are spaced to accommodate the Sentinel's wheelbase, which may be an issue with the diamond crossing (if it is, you'll have to use a different loco!) and you should get away with it.  The tip about wiring the turnouts is a good one; not sure about the graphite.  I can see how it works, but would worry about excess graphite getting into mechanisms and shorting them out!

Edited May 13, 2017 by The Johnster