Ratio Midland Railway Clerestories

[Edwardian]

I continued my course in Self Improvement, by treating myself at the York Show to the Lacey & Dow volumes on Midland carriages.

 

I should say that the layout project after Castle Aching will be to apply what I have learnt to the restoration and extension of a venerable 'OO Finescale' ex-exhibition layout. Frankly cosmetically it's in a bit of a state, but much of the very excellent track-work is intact.

 

The original layout was vague as to time and place, so I intend my changes to anchor it firmly, but perhaps not too precisely, to the area of the Welsh Borders in the decade before the Great War.  The idea has always been to represent a GW-LNWR joint line, but with GW infrastructure, as that is a feature of the original layout.  Ideally I would glean stock to represent c.1905-7 and c.1912-14. The plan was to have some Midland and, eventually, Cambrian traffic as well, with an option for a NG and/or Light Railway feeder.  It is to be a 'run as much as possible on a single layout' job!

 

The reason I am getting all excited about it now is because, of course, I have just seen Eaton Gomery, inspired by Montgomery, a GW and Cambrian layout that has LNW and MR traffic, so I am feeling inspired anew.  I will not, however, touch this layout (currently in store) until Castle Aching is pretty much done.

 

in the meantime, I plot and plan as best I can ...

 

The Midland contribution?  Well I thought of what might be running on a secondary route c.1905 and the thought was to have a couple of stoppers or semi-fasts and something more along the lines of a short 4-coach express.  

 

For 2 of the 3 services, I thought about a mix of Clayton coaches - the 6-wheelers built in the mid-to-late 1880s would, by 1905, probably be on secondary routes/services and I feel the loss of the Slaters kits keenly.  I would like to mix them with Clayton bogie coaches from the late 1870s and early 1880s at 40', 43', 45' lengths.  By 1905 these early bogie coaches would have been on the duplicate list, but mostly still around, so, again, they seem appropriate for secondary routes/services. 

 

I have looked at the sides of the Ratio Midland suburbans.  The compartment widths don't look to be a great fit, but, moreover, the waist band on the Claytons is narrow and very much narrower than on the Ratio coaches.  

 

These considerations, and the lack of Slaters 6-wheelers, means parking these two services for now.  But what about the express?

 

Well, having finished Vol 1 of Dow & Lacey, I concluded that the best coaches to aim for would be the 48' "square light" clerestories that were Clayton's grand finale.  They are nice and short, were built for general service, following the introduction of longer types for expresses on the principal routes, and dating from 1896-1901, were not in the very first flush of youth and, again, seemed appropriate for a secondary route c.1905.

 

Briefly, Clayton builds bogies and 6-wheelers in the 1880s of fairly conventional panel design.  After a bit of a break he introduces a distinctive clerestory design with square windows and beading, the "square lights".  His successor, Bain, builds more of these Square Light clerestories (but to 54") before developing his own style with more conventional round-cornered panelling.

 

Now, I had often heard the Ratio clerestories described as Bain Clerestories.  I wondered if the Ratio kits could be adapted to the earlier and more numerous Clayton Square Light types, though noted gloomily that Bain generally changed the compartment widths. 

 

I remembered that I had a couple of these kits in the stash, so unearthed them this morning. It turns out that I have a Lav. Third and a Brake Third.  It also turns out that they are 48 footers and a perfect match for Lacey & Dow's drawings of Clayton's Lav. Third D486 and Brake Third D499, two of the very coaches I had selected!  I note that, from the pictures of the model, the Ratio Lav. Composite looks like a match for the D509 Composite I had, again, selected for my express.

 

The only chosen diagram not covered was D508 Brake Composite, which I believe could be derived from kippering Composite and Brake Third sides.

 

The Ratio kits feature a vent above the doors where the Midland had provided a toplight, the LMS seemed quite keen on doing this, so these panels will need to be drilled out and carefully filed square (about 40 odd times), but, whilst this is a bit of a faff, it is nothing to what I thought I'd have to do to adapt what I thought were the Bain Square Lights.

 

So, someone makes the exact thing I want and it's still available! THAT NEVER HAPPENS! 

 

I just need to pick up a Composite and, either a second Composite or a second Brake Third and then order a spare set of sides from Peco.

 

Any tips, advice, comments would be welcome as I am a complete novice where Midland matters are concerned.

 

EDIT: Meant to ask whether Midland and LMS crimsons are the same. I am told that Halford red primer under Rover Damask Red is a good match for LMS crimson, so naturally I am wondering if I can pull the same trick for Midland?   

 

In the meantime, the coaches in question on Eaton Gomery:

Edited April 20, 2017 by Edwardian

[drduncan]

I've been wondering if the Ratio MR clerestories (the brake 3rd and composite) can be cut and shut into an accurate depiction of a brake composite. Not having access to the MR coach volumes the subject is, well, a closed book to me.

Duncan

[Edwardian]

I've been wondering if the Ratio MR clerestories (the brake 3rd and composite) can be cut and shut into an accurate depiction of a brake composite. Not having access to the MR coach volumes the subject is, well, a closed book to me.

Duncan

 

If you want to PM me and I can sort you out with a pdf of the drawing.

[John_Miles]

Branchlines and Bill Bedford do some Midland coaches. Mightg be worth a look.

[Edwardian]

Branchlines and Bill Bedford do some Midland coaches. Mightg be worth a look.

 

Thanks, that's very helpful  I think Mousa may do the Clayton 6-wheelers.

 

I'll have a look around.

[asmay2002]

EDIT: Meant to ask whether Midland and LMS crimsons are the same.

Jenkinson in his books says that Crimson Lake never changed.  The undercoat did though - the MR used "oxide of iron - purple brown"  - and this can make a difference with reds so don't use a grey undercoat. 

[Poor Old Bruce]

Branchlines and Bill Bedford do some Midland coaches. Mightg be worth a look.

 

As do Stephenson Carriages and 51L.

[CKPR]

IRRC , the Ratio MR clerestories represent the coaches as modified by the LMS.

[Edwardian]

IRRC , the Ratio MR clerestories represent the coaches as modified by the LMS.

 

Yes:

 

The Ratio kits feature a vent above the doors where the Midland had provided a toplight, the LMS seemed quite keen on doing this, so these panels will need to be drilled out and carefully filed square (about 40 odd times), but, whilst this is a bit of a faff, it is nothing to what I thought I'd have to do to adapt what I thought were the Bain Square Lights.

 

[Compound2632]

Welcome to "The Best Way", Edwardian!

 

The Midland Railway's square-light clerestory carriages from the last five years of Thomas Clayton's term as Carriage & Wagon Superintendent are to my mind the most visually satisfying carriages ever built (tastes may differ - discussion is not required). The 48' non-corridor carriages with lavatory accommodation for some (I said 'visually satisfying' not 'best for the passenger') were among the most common variants, being built in some quantity (by Midland not LNWR stadards) between 1898 and 1902. They were rather quickly displaced from the principal expresses by Bain's 54' corridor clerestories but remained the backbone of secondary main-line services into the 1920s. I've been looking at various Carriage Marshalling documents for the period 1910 - 1914 in the collection of the Midland Railway Study Centre; just one example from summer 1911, the 6.5am Birmingham - Bradford via Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield and Leeds: D499 third brake, D486 third, D508 composite (detached at Leeds), D508 composite (detached at Sheffield), D530 6-wheeled brake. 

 

The Ratio kits represent the D499 third brake, D486 third (with luggage compartment) and D509 composite (without luggage compartment) but alas not the very common D508 composite with luggage compartment (or the brake version counted as the same diagram). A composite with luggage space was evidently operationally preferable - as in the example above - whereas the luggage-space-less D509 is often found paired with a D499 third brake. 

 

Now, my experience with the Ratio kits...

 

You know how Richard Wagner stopped composing The Ring of the Nibelung part way through Act 3 of Siegfried - taking a twelve year break during which he composed Tristan and Die Meistersinger to develop the skills he needed for Brunhilde's awakening - well, that's me and the Ratio clerestories. The fat lady has yet to awaken in my case!

 

I built I number of these in a rough-and-ready way in my raw youth but have yet to complete one to my satisfaction. You've already identified the key problem area for a model of a carriage as built - the door toplight ventilators. I'd also point out the bit of eves panelling that at the centre, made deeper to carry the word MIDLAND in the post-1906 livery.

 

I have tried or at least contemplated the following options:

 

1. Build them as carriages in 1920s condition and have done with it... (I may go down this route and have a 1920s option, as I've a 2000 Class 0-6-4T to build and the Ratio Bain 48' suburban carriages are spot on for the Birmingham area from 1909.)

 

2. Hack around with the door ventilators as you suggest - been there, rapidly dissatisfied...

 

3. Build one's own Plastikard sides a la Jenkinson - I have somewhere a pair of sides for a D508 luggage/brake composite that I made this way many, many years ago. Building up the panelling using microstrip is less challenging than the doily method needed for round panelled coaches - years ago I experimented with that and got frustrated.

 

4. Brass sides - e.g. Branchlines (alive and well at shows and by post in despite of the frustration of those whose technology has moved on in the last 20 years). He does the all-important D508 luggage/brake composite along with various other diagrams such as the Leeds/Bradford close-coupled sets but not direct replacements for the Ratio diagrams. My stumbling block has been FORMING THE TUMBLEHOME. What is it? Do I not have carriage modeller's thighs? I've read up on various experts' methods and tried most to no satisfactory result. 

 

A train that might appeal to Edwardian is the summer 1911 6.25am Derby - Bristol, made up of five Somerset & Dorset carriages - two vans flanking three 46' bogie carriages (more once-was kits, I believe) - at Birmingham, a couple of Midland arc-roof carriages were added at the front, a D504 6-wheel brake third and a 40' bogie lavatory composite brake (one of the D526 Lot 109 vehicles modified, as mentioned by Lacy & Dow, Vol. 1 p. 97). These were detached at Worcester, going forward to Hereford by a Great Western train at 9.50am.

[Edwardian]

Thank you Stephen, that is very interesting and very helpful.

 

I am very pleased to learn that Carriage Marshalling documents exist.

 

I will reply at greater length and explain what, in my ignorance, I was considering.

[MR Chuffer]

@Edwardian, @Compound2632Now then, bookmarked this thread the other day, and bid for some Ratio 48' footers anyway that I had my eye on, despite their limitations. I thought I was ordering a Composite and 2 Brake Thirds so imagine my surprise, and delight, when I opened a Brake Third box with hand written scribbling on the outside to find it was a D508 - the illusory Luggage/Brake Composite. There are no guards duckets on it but they are easy to replicate if that's the chosen option.

 

I am building a rake for a regional semi-fast so, from what I am reading above, I'd be better keeping the Lugg Comp as that and go and get another Brake 3rd (Jenkinson actually has numbers for that form).

 

Furthermore, there were 2 Midland through coaches a day (according to my 1910 Bradshaws) from Blackburn to St Pancras at 12.15 and 10.27pm , would the Lugg Comp be suitable for this or would I need to go for a 54' Corridor Clerestory.

 

And lastly, in marshalling a rake, say Brake 3rd, All 3rd, Composite and Brake 3rd, - optionally with a 6W brake for more luggage later! - where would the Luggage Comp sit if it was, say, a  St Pancras through coach on a semi-fast Skipton to Liverpool service, or wherever, to be dropped off at Blackburn? Next to the loco, within the rake, or tacked on behind the last Brake? Or perhaps if attached to a stopping local, where's the optimum position?

 

Any input will be much appreciated.

[Compound2632]

@MR Chuffer, if it is a D508, it's not Ratio... Ratio make three diagrams:

D486 48 ft bogie lavatory third with luggage compartment - 122 built

D499 48 ft bogie lavatory third brake - 61 built

D509 48 ft bogie lavatory composite - 49 built

Ratio have never done either version of D509, the lavatory composite with luggage compartment - 100 built - or the lavatory composite brake - 59 built. 

Branchlines produce a kit for the lavatory composite brake version, using Ratio parts together with etched sides and ends; they do similar kits for several of the non-lavatory diagrams.

 

In the absence of any other consideration, you wouldn't be far wrong making a typical ordinary passenger train up as: D499 / D486 / D509 / D508 / D530 (6-wheel clerestory brake) although a pair of D508 composites (one luggage, one brake) might be more typical than the D509 / D508 pair. A number of such sets were being used for services between Birmingham, Derby, Leicester, Bristol, Gloucester, and Worcester in the early 1920s.

 

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a number of carriage marshalling books in its collection,some of which I have studied. These generally give sufficient information to enable the specific diagram to be identified - there are exceptions, such as the 54 ft corridor composites, of which there were several diagrams with different external features (panelling style, height of clerestory) but the same seating and hence operationally identical. 

 

The marshalling book closest to your Bradshaw is for through express trains between London (St Pancras), Manchester and Liverpool, Oct 1st 1909 until further notice. The 12.15am (00:15) down included a Blackburn portion consisting of a bogie compo with 2 first class compartments, 3 thirds, 1 first class lavatory and one third, and a locker, weight 22 tons - i.e. the non-brake version of D508 - plus a non-bogie van weighing 13 tons - i.e. D530. These worked back up to London attached at Marple to the 12.1am (00.01) from Manchester. Now those are both night trains so not so useful for the modeller!

For daylight trains, the workings look more complicated, The 2.30pm down had a portion for Blackburn and Hellifield made up of a corridor third brake with 3 compartments, 25 tons, and a corridor composite with 2 first and 3 third compartments and a locker, weight 24 tons. The third brake is clearly a 54 ft carriage, either the square-panelled D475 or the round-panelled D476, D561, or D477. The composite has too few compartments to be a 54 ft carriage, besides which none of these had lockers. In fact it is a 50 ft composite of D468 - these were built at the turn of the century for the M&GSW and M&NB joint stock for the Scotch expresses but in 1906 ten of the M&GSW carriages were swapped for 15 D560 54ft corridor thirds. This composite worked back up to London attached at Chinley off the 8.45am from Blackburn, to the 10.15am up from Manchester. There was also a corridor compo brake with 2 first and 3 third compartments, 26 tons, that was attached to the 1:50pm from Manchester - this fits the 54 ft vehicles of D472; earlier corridor composite brakes had three compartments of each class, with one of each being a coupe. I haven't found the balancing working for this carriage or the corridor third brake - this suggests they formed part of more local trains rather than being attached to London expresses.

 

I'm not sure about a St Pancras through carriage on a Skipton - Liverpool train - I assume (or recall?) you're proposing fictitious Midland service via Colne? In reality, the Midland's assault on Lancashire was two-fold: from the south by the CLC and from the north via Hellifield and the L&Y. By the former we have the St Pancras - Blackburn through carriages; via Hellifield the Manchester and Liverpool Scotch trains, taking in Blackburn. I don't know the politics but perhaps in exchange for working Midland Scotch trains over the L&Y, the Midland agreed to leave Lancashire - West Riding traffic to the L&Y? On the other hand, a 4-carriage set of non-corridor clerestories, plus D530 brake, would be just the thing for a Skipton - Liverpool train. 

 

As to locomotives - 1808 Class 4-4-0s of course; by 1910 rebuilt with H-boilers but not yet renewed as superheated 483 Class.

 

BTW I hope you didn't pay over the odds for the kits you bought, since they are available new, randomly chosen supplier here, for under £20.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[MR Chuffer]

@Compound2632, thanks Stephen, lots to digest here, the biggest mystery being the D508 kit origin. As I said, D508 sides, albeit with a darker grey plastic for the sides than the other kits, accompanied by all the usual standard Ratio paraphernalia in a box marked Ratio Brake 3rd but with this crossed out and handwritten Brake Composite.

 

From what you say, I'll keep it as a Composite Luggage to better fit in with some of the formations you have outlined above.

 

And yes, I'm kind of imagining more of an MR presence in East Lancashire/Lancashire as a whole than there actually was at the time. I have a substantial resource of MR books, Essery, Jenkinson, Dow/HMRS, et al, from way back when as well as MR models from 35+ years ago, and I now live in East Lancashire.....

 

Which begs the question, have you ever come across a book by Donald Binns https://www.amazon.co.uk/Towards-Lancashire-Midlands-Extension-Barnoldswick/dp/B003DCW9RO/ref=sr_1_9?crid=13265QQYSX507&keywords=skipton+railway&qid=1578838119&sprefix=skipton%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-9. I think it was self published in 2008 following on from his previous book "The Skipton-Colne Railway and the Barnoldswick Branch" from 1995.

 

I believe the above books would very much support your hypothesis of the Midland deferring to the L&Y to work the Lancashire - West Riding traffic having read a synopsis of Donald's 2008 book on a website somewhere.

 

Sad to say whilst trying to source it, I came across his obituary from February 2012.

 

Ratio coach pricing? 5 at £9.99 each and 1 at £4.50.

 

Cheers, and many thanks for all your input.

Edited February 17, 2020 by MR Chuffer
Punctuation

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Stephen, lots to digest here, the biggest mystery being the D508 kit origin. As I said, D508 sides, albeit with a darker grey plastic for the sides than the others , accompanied by all the usual standard Ratio paraphernalia in a box marked Ratio Brake 3rd but with this crossed out and handwritten Brake Composite.

 

Curiouser and curiouser. Could you post a photo?

 

3 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

And yes, I'm kind of imagining more of an MR presence in East Lancashire/Lancashire as a whole than there actually was at the time. I have a substantial resource of MR books, Essery, Jenkinson, Dow/HMRS, et al, from way back when as well as MR models from 35+ years ago, and I now live in East Lancashire.....

 

If you've not got it, the one to go for for carriages is R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986, 2 vols.) - Jenkinson & Essery has many good things but with their LMS Society perspective they tended to major on stock that passed to the LMS and are weaker on the arc-roof period.

 

7 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Which begs the question, have you ever come across a book by Donald Binns https://www.amazon.co.uk/Towards-Lancashire-Midlands-Extension-Barnoldswick/dp/B003DCW9RO/ref=sr_1_9?crid=13265QQYSX507&keywords=skipton+railway&qid=1578838119&sprefix=skipton%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-9. I think it was self published in 2008 following on from his previous book "The Skipton-Colne Railway and the Barnoldswick Branch" from 1995.

 

I've not seen that. 

 

8 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Ratio coach pricing? 5 at £9.99 each and 1 at £4.50.

 

Bravo!

 

Are you now or have you ever been...

 

... a member of the Midland Railway Society?

[MR Chuffer]

Photos of the sides, compared to the "standard" Luggage 3rd; besides the different coloured plastic, on closer examination, I can just about make out 2 join lines on each side (pencils pointing at them), a cut and shut job? Anyway, neatly executed and I'm the winner.

 

On the Midland Railway Society front, I was a founder member of the Midland Railway Trust/Butterley many years back but looking through the Society's book list, I see one of the Midland into Lancashire books I am looking for so there probably is a deal to be done.

 

The annual membership fee is less than the monthly fee at my local model railway club and I'd probably get a lot more out of the Society, they're heavily biased to the L&Y round here, which I can tolerate to a degree

[Compound2632]

That's rather neatly done - comes out just right for the brake version of D508. Just a little tidying up on the lower panels needed. These carriages got the guard's lookouts from 1902, long before they started to get the door toplights replaced by ventilators - after the Great War? Truth to tell, I'm not entirely confident what the luggage end of the non-brake version of D508 looked like - clear photos are hard to come by - the double doors may have been on the centre line of the luggage compartment, without a droplight in the LH door.

 

The middle section is clearly from the D509 composite and the brake section from the D499 third brake, with a sliver of end from one kit or other. The two third class compartments could be from either kit but probably the composite. I'm toying with what else one could produce by cut'n'shut: the passenger end of the D499 third brake could make a D492 6-wheel lavatory third (for which there is also the old Slaters kit) or two stuck together would give one of the three 60 ft lavatory thirds D484 built for the Bristol-Bradford set trains of 1897.Other 6-wheelers are possible, though there are the Branchlines kits, possibly some of the non-lavatory diagrams too. 

 

Although the 1909 carriage marshalling book gives a D508 composite for one of the Blackburn through carriage, the 50 ft composite brakes D523 of 1902 were nominally for this service, though 15 were built, plenty more than enough. These had three firsts and two thirds - perhaps this balance of accommodation was found to be unsatisfactory. 

Edited February 18, 2020 by Compound2632

[LNWR18901910]

Hornby re-released the old Tri-ang Clerestory coaches, so maybe repainting them as surburban coaching stock into the Midland Railway crimson lake livery would be an option.

[Compound2632]

15 minutes ago, LNWR18901910 said:

Hornby re-released the old Tri-ang Clerestory coaches, so maybe repainting them as suburban coaching stock into the Midland Railway crimson lake livery would be an option.

 

No. Definitely not. There are all sorts of issues there too numerous to start listing, and better routes to the same end. That's not to say that Great Western clerestories don't look good in crimson lake, as the Great Western itself realised between 1912 and 1923.

[t-b-g]

In amongst some bits and pieces that came my way from the late George Norton were some Ratio MR Clerestory parts and his notes as to how to make a "cut and shut" 12 wheeled Brake 3rd. I made a start a while ago. There is just something about 12 wheelers that floats my boat. I think he did quite a few conversions of the ratio kits into other diagrams but I don't know where they are now.

 

I have also inherited some carriages that belonged to the late Sid Stubbs and there are some lovely built up Ratio clerestories amongst them. There is also a Triang GWR one in Midland livery! That may stay in the box! The other one that has arrived was noted "Scratchbuilt Alex Jackson/Ross Pochin". Sadly, that has taken some damage over the years and in all honesty, is very much "of its period" and looks a bit poor next to the Ratio kits.

 

Sadly, the door vents are as provided in LMS condition and as the carriages are superbly painted and lined, I am reluctant to start carving holes, so they will stay as they are! 

[Compound2632]

@t-b-g, a photo of your 12-wheeler, even if it's only a work-in-progress, would I'm sure be a source of inspiration!

[t-b-g]

6 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

@t-b-g, a photo of your 12-wheeler, even if it's only a work-in-progress, would I'm sure be a source of inspiration!

 

It will be a little while before I see it again! It is at a friend's house, as it was being built for "Narrow Road", which lives elsewhere. The body is substantially complete now. I did take some photos years ago, when I started it. I was horrified to see that it may have been 11 years ago!

 

Things don't happen quickly round these parts!