LNER 69 Loco

[bertiedog]

A LNER Ex GER 060 loco in N gauge as once supplied by Graham Farish.  I came across a stored away diecast body for a GER 060 that Farish once made, and the small size makes a 2mm conversion rather more easy, from the nominal N gauge size.

 

With tiny coreless motors and micro gears available a new chassis seems feasible without too much trouble. Problem is wheels, there are I assume some 2mm Association wheels, designed for split chassis users.

Is there a source of a drawing for the J69 060?

Quite like the idea of some lost wax cast wheels, this small size makes the process at home easier, especially if silver solder is used for the casting metal. Robust enough for wheels and the right colour.

 

 

 

Very poor paintwork, but the casting is very sound and commendably thin section moulding. Needs new chimney and some handrails, not much else to add.

 

Stephen

Edited April 23, 2017 by bertiedog

[RichardW1]

This body has seen better days, but also has been successfully converted for 2mm finescale in the past. The 2 mm Scale association will have all the parts you require, wheels, gears, motors, etc. It is possible that one of the chassis kits could fit, or be made to ft. Check out the association at www.2mm.org.uk. One small hold up may be the wheels, we are short on some sizes at present, following the death of one of our products suppliers, but check to see what is available. 9 mm dia or 8.5 mm dia at a guess. You bo have to be a member to buy from the association.

 

Good luck.

[2mmMark]

Wheels are 16 spoke, 4ft diameter, wheebase is 7'6" by 6'4". 

 

Covered by Iain Rice in Model Railways November 1982 and then again in January 1984, with some corrections and revisions.

 

I think it is also covered in MRJ and the Great Eastern Society have a plan for sale to members.

 

John Greenwood wrote an article on a compensated finescale chassis for one of these in the 2mm Magazine for Feb & Apr 1995

 

No need for a tiny motor, there's bags of room in the body for a larger, coreless or otherwise motor plus plenty of lead in the tanks.

 

I built a chassis for one around 1996/7 which is still going strong.  I've got a couple more of these bodies to use. Bit chubby in the boiler, but aren't we all these days?

 

Here's a link to some info on my chassis

http://www.zen98812.zen.co.uk/060chas.html

 

The Tenshodo motor is right back in the cab & bunker with all the weight concentrated in the tanks. The Tenshodo motor is double ended but you can carefully push the shaft through the armature to make a long single-ended motor.

 

Pardon me for asking Stephen, but just how many projects do you have on the go? :-)  I thought I was bad at having many things on the go at once!

[Izzy]

There is a drawing of the basic J69 in the Roche book. The wheels need to be 8mm dia. They were 10 spoke. Unfitted variants had 15 spoke wheels. The rods joint/pivot around the centre crankpin - just like many models. Beware there were lots of variations and re-builds/re-classifications between the J67/J69 and similar J68. Full details in RCTS pt 8A. Lots of info also to be found online.

 

Izzy

[2mmMark]

Some photos of my J69. I used some readymade etched coupling rods from the Association - 14mm by 15.5mm as the body is 3mm too long. This kept it looking about right.

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[2mmMark]

There is a drawing of the basic J69 in the Roche book. The wheels need to be 8mm dia. They were 10 spoke. Unfitted variants had 15 spoke wheels. The rods joint/pivot around the centre crankpin - just like many models. Beware there were lots of variations and re-builds/re-classifications between the J67/J69 and similar J68. Full details in RCTS pt 8A. Lots of info also to be found online.

 

Izzy

 

The Roche drawing has some errors that tripped up Iain Rice.

[RichardW1]

Thanks Mark.... the wheels are smaller than I'd recalled. Non the less it makes a great little loco. Shame we don't use it on CF, but then to don't suppose there were round there much.

[bertiedog]

Not worth wasting the body, it turns out under the paint is a sound corrosion free body, needs a bit of fettling around the original cast seams, as a burr was left by Farish. I always clean up first with the paint on as it acts as a reveal to seams and edges. It will go into the cellulose paint thinners to remove the coats of colour, (there was no primer used).

 

I have an un-drilled chassis that would suit the loco, just needs shortening down to length, it is brass with a Tufnol centre for split frame pickup.

 

I am not trying to minimise the motor as such, just fitting a nice unit that has a gear box already, ex digital camera focus unit. The box has a two start worm and spur gears giving a total of about 100:1, but the final step can be dropped to get about 50:1.

 

The gears are all nylon or delrin, and again suit split frame uses. They run on 1mm shafts, which can be supported from one side, with the gears running on fixed shafts.

 

The motor choice is coreless or three pole, the 3 pole maybe better suited and is smaller, rated at 5volt max, and it may be possible with it to clear the cab, driving the front axle.

 

The wheels needs a single master wheel made to produce single faced cast copies in silver solder. the method I used in the past uses dental plaster, into which is moulded the master wheel face downwards, with a steel tube around the mould. The silver solder is heated with the plaster, (which is fired first to rid it of water), and enough is melted on to the mould to cover the wheel master. At the same time a piece of one inch steel rod is heated with a sample of the solder on top of it, when the solder melts, the steel is dropped down the tube, (about 6inch drop), forcing the molten solder into the mould, and setting it as the steel cools.

 

Do not attempt to use this process unless demonstrated carefully to you as any trace of damp can be deadly, as the steel weight can be fired from the tube very violently, Strictly a dangerous process, but no more than other casting methods. If a cold rod is dropped on the molten metal it sets too quickly and the spokes fail.

 

As long as the plaster holds several castings can be made one after another, with plenty of spares in case the spokes do not form etc.

A broken mould is no problem as any number can be cast from the master wheel.

 

The castings can then be machined in the lathe, and fitted with a stainless steel stub axle, which is connected into the muff insulation sleeve made again of Tufnol. The back is recessed to form fully spoked wheels.

 

Quartering can be done by setting one side in loctite in the tufnol and a hard push fit in the other, with slight twisting to get the quartering right.

 

I can only tackle so many items but I prefer several on the go at once as particular processes can be used for several models. Being retired I can spend a lot of time on models now. Previously I earnt a living building models for years, all types and model engineering, boats and aircraft.

 

Not a member of the 2mm Association these days, was in the period I worked in London and could get to Keen House. On cost grounds alone I would not buy in parts unless I cannot make them, but even gears are now no problem as I have a gear cutting machine now, just took 20 years to finish as it is my own design, based on a Swiss pattern original we had at work. it was working many years ago, but the multiple drives took time to complete. Health issues recently kept me from 2mm for a time, the work is small and fiddly to do! plus the lack of decent motors till recently, the earliest ones I made used home made motors.

 

I will post the chassis and wheels soon, it needs the master wheel made first. I have some details for the J69 and will find the diameter and spoke count first.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

Whist I was typing the answers can in, so the wheels can be done pretty quickly once the master is finished. It is made on a steel disk with nickel silver spokes radiating from the boss, index cut to space them. After soldering the spokes to the backing the lot is turned in the lathe to allow a plain steel rim to be added and further soldered on.

 

There is no detailing in the master for the rim or tyre, this is all turned later on after the cast version is made. The boss is shaped for the crankpin boss.

 

All the spokes are V section to be able to release from the mould. Natural fillets are formed at the spoke ends with the boss and rim.

It really requires Easy Flo solder, but the EU banned cadmium from silver silver, and substitutes do not work as well, but I have now a small supply to use for master making. On a side note the EU is moving towards banning all cadmium from low melt solders, so the days of soft solder for low melt are numbered as well.

 

If the Silver solder is considered a bit soft for the final wheels tyre, ( I find it is all right), a stainless steel tyre can be added to the wheels. This does improve traction as silver solder is less able to grip the track than Nickel silver.

 

If nickel silver is used for the castings, then the lost wax process is used, a master is made in wax and burnt out of a solid plaster mould. The temperature is much higher than using the silver solder as the casting material, and a lot of skill is need to do the castings.

 

I have a copy of the Roche Drawings on the way to me from Ebay.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

A further search of the old boxes has turned up some 8 mm wheels , but only 5, and one has a dodgy spoke, but repairable, which makes the missing one even more disappointing. Might go ahead with disk wheels to get it running, then change the wheels later on. The camera gearbox has all the right gears, and the motor is only 9mm long and fits with space to spare, for perhaps a small flywheel off board to the motor.

 

Disc wheels would only take a couple of hours to make. The rods can be filed to shape from N/S rail section.

I have sawn down the chassis block to fit the body, leaving the pins at the back to support the body, and the screw on chimney to bolt down the front. Most of the paint has come off, just some stubborn bits to remove.

 

it can then be grit blasted with sodium bicarbonate powder, which gives a good surface on mazak without aggressive abrasives.

 

It needs handrails on the cab, and the front round the smokebox, and there is a hole suggesting a clack valve fitting on one side. The front of the smokebox is well detailed for the time..

 

The width cannot be altered but even as N gauge it is a small loco and about 3mm too long, but getting rid of that would mean an awful lot of cutting and glue assembly, on what is a very sound body. The castings are very thin, but strong and sound. Far thinner than a cast kit.

There are some 2mm coaches to run with it, LNER surburban teak stock all scratch built in the 1970's.

 

The sides were cut in Paxolin on a Taylor, Taylor, Hobson pantograph engraver, copied from O gauge coach parts. I still have a selection of 2mm goods stock in wagons and a small layout that really needs new track laid, as the PC sleepers are de-laminating in places, with the copper still soldered to the copper tracks that are loose.

 

I seem to recall buying the sleepers via the 2mm Association in a bulk pack. The rail section is fine scale but with plain section as no die drawn bullhead was made then. The points have lasted very well they were done on glass fibre PC strip, all live fog, and scale dimensions. Not much was done on scenery apart from the terminus station buildings, done in plasticard throughout, and they remain in good condition.

Power supplied by 0 to 9volt PWM feedback controller using the 555 series IC timer chips.

 

Stephen

Edited April 24, 2017 by bertiedog

[2mmMark]

 

It needs handrails on the cab, and the front round the smokebox, and there is a hole suggesting a clack valve fitting on one side. The front of the smokebox is well detailed for the time..

 

 

It's for a plastic moulded Westinghouse pump.

 

GF were representing a passenger Buckjumper.

 

Mark

[2mmMark]

Thanks Mark.... the wheels are smaller than I'd recalled. Non the less it makes a great little loco. Shame we don't use it on CF, but then to don't suppose there were round there much.

 

I'm not entirely sure if the small GE tanks came off GE metals that much. Some did have tripcocks so they could use the East London line.

 

It's still a respectable runner, the only potential weak point in the chassis are the white metal centered wheels but this is less of an issue with the smaller diameters as these are less prone to distortion and loosening on the axles. It's not a very sophisticated chassis and rattles like a Lone Star Jinty when you shake it.

 

I have some nice 8mm wheels which came from Bert Groves. Very cleanly cast centres in a hardish metal, possibly the dreaded cadmium alloy which had to be abandoned in case it caused the collapse of civilisation. The rims just need final turning. These would be best off gracing a proper Buckjumper. I think David Eveleigh does an etched body kit.

 

Mark

Edited April 24, 2017 by 2mmMark

[bécasse]

J67/69s were allocated, largely as pilot locos, to a number of ex-GNR and ex-GCR sheds, and a number went to Scotland, none, however, ever seem to have worked in the ex-NER area.

 

Their use on passenger trains was almost certainly limited to the former GER lines, although they certainly got, in pairs, to New Cross Gate on Sunday excursions from Essex (including stations on LT's Central Line) to the south coast, reversing at Liverpool Street.

[2mmMark]

J67/69s were allocated, largely as pilot locos, to a number of ex-GNR and ex-GCR sheds, and a number went to Scotland, none, however, ever seem to have worked in the ex-NER area.

 

Their use on passenger trains was almost certainly limited to the former GER lines, although they certainly got, in pairs, to New Cross Gate on Sunday excursions from Essex (including stations on LT's Central Line) to the south coast, reversing at Liverpool Street.

 

Yes, that's right, I remember now.  The Lauder light railway used J67s with NBR J37 tenders to reduce the axle loading, the idea being to run with empty tanks, taking water from the tender.

 

The NER had plenty of J72s of its own, so no need for ex-GE tanks.

 

I was thinking in terms of the London area. The question is whether we can justify a J67/68/69 on Copenhagen Fields. Perhaps on a transfer freight.

 

Mark

[Orange Cat]

There were drawings of J67 in Your Model Railway October 1984 and J69 in Model Railways March 1973 and Railway Modeller March 1988.

[Izzy]

The downloadable PDF's that Jim Mcgeown provides for his excellent loco kits has much useful information on each particular model and well worth reading whatever scale you work in as they often feature scale drawings for reference along with good photos of the built models. He has produced quite a few ex GE types I have had the pleasure of building back in the '90's and these include a J68.

 

http://www.jimmcgeown.com/Loco%20Kit%20Pages/J68%20Class%20LNER.html

 

Izzy

[bécasse]

There were drawings of J67 in Your Model Railway October 1984 and J69 in Model Railways March 1973 and Railway Modeller March 1988.

 

One needs to be very careful with any published (or, indeed, official) drawing of locos of these two classes because determining the appearance of any individual loco at any moment in time is an absolute minefield. Individual locos moved between the two classes and their subdivisions seemingly at the drop of a hat. It is difficult to think of any class where the advice about finding a good set of roughly contemporary photos of one loco and modelling that would be more appropriate.  Treat any published drawings as a useful but incomplete guide to the subject, and do read Iain Rice's erudite ramblings on the subject. I don't think he ever quite managed to get it all right (who does?) but his writings and the accompanying drawings do make an excellent introduction to the complexities involved. The appropriate RCTS green book is useful too, not least because it does help one understand how things came to be so complicated. Fortunately in 2mm scale, even 2FS, some of the differences are so minuscule that they become almost unimportant.

 

As to CF, so many of the locos were allocated to ex-GN sheds in the LNER as pilot locos that I can see no reason why one shouldn't be included as an occasional member of the roster, even if it is there as the result of a perfectly plausible shed to shed emergency loan.

[justin1985]

I'm very impressed by the descriptions of your methods, although they do sound a tad masochistic, or at least dangerous!

 

There is a good deal of information, and photographs, on the GER Society website here: http://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/locomotives/j-holden/r24-r24r 

 

You can also download a good set of scale drawings for just a few pounds from their "Files Emporium" http://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/home/sales/files-emporium-2/product/69-lg009-ger-lner-0-6-0-tank-locos 

 

Justin

[bertiedog]

Casting can be dangerous, lost wax is lethal in the way I was taught, with the production of wheel in mind, where the liquid metal is poured into a mould and with a chain attached is swung around to drive the metal  into the mould.

But I found that art mouldings did not seem to need the centrifugal force, just more vents, which cause a lot more work removing the waste from the castings.

The drop method was developed from experiments as the spokes could not have vents, far to much cleaning up, so the metal has to be forced in to the mould and quickly set.

Dropping red hot rods into tubes containing water can be deadly, as superheated steam is produced that turns the rod into a missile. So the plaster mould must be heated first to dry it out completely. It's important to use dental grade plaster, it is smooth and takes the heat well.

 

Stephen.

[Chris Higgs]

Perhaps worth mentioning, if you want to do a properly scaled J69, then David Eveleigh will be happy to sell you an etch:

 

http://2mm.org.uk/small_suppliers/davideveleigh/index.htm

 

Chris

[Chris Higgs]

A LNER Ex GER 060 loco in N gauge as once supplied by Graham Farish.  I came across a stored away diecast body for a GER 060 that Farish once made, and the small size makes a 2mm conversion rather more easy, from the nominal N gauge size.

 

With tiny coreless motors and micro gears available a new chassis seems feasible without too much trouble. Problem is wheels, there are I assume some 2mm Association wheels, designed for split chassis users.

Is there a source of a drawing for the J69 060?

Quite like the idea of some lost wax cast wheels, this small size makes the process at home easier, especially if silver solder is used for the casting metal. Robust enough for wheels and the right colour.

 

P3239304 j69.JPG

 

P3239305 rm j69.JPG

 

Very poor paintwork, but the casting is very sound and commendably thin section moulding. Needs new chimney and some handrails, not much else to add.

 

Stephen

 

You are not wrong about the bodywork. If you really want to persist with the conversion, there are often examples in much better condition on ebay for reasonable prices.

 

Chris

[bertiedog]

The actual casting is very good, no damage or corrosion at all, and keeping cost in mind it is here and ready now! The body is nearly all cleaned up, with old seams in the castings smoothed over, and the surfaces filed with very fine Swiss files to smooth out the flat areas.The holes for the handrails are drilled, a bit difficult as the Mazak casting is surprisingly hard metal. Got to find some fine wire for the handrails in N/S. Some of the paint is very stubborn to remove, will try fresh Nitromors.

 

Coal rails on the rear windows are difficult, tiny and the windows are blocked partly by the cast coal load. But closer examination shows Farish recessed the mould under the windows inside the cab, and there is space to slip in etched bars in one go each side.

Four Buffers to turn up in the lathe, attached to the buffer beams which are cast on the body.

 

The chassis is drilled out for the wheels, settled on 1.5 mm axles as these will suit the plastic gears on the driven axle. I have made a set of disk wheels for trial assembly very soon, got to work on the gearbox next, quite a bit of work to support the gears from the camera gearbox.

The final gear in the chain can act as the muff once drilled out from 1mm to 1.48 or so for a press fit, hoping the gear will not split. The stubs can be tapered a touch to ease them into the gear accurately.

 

The frames are 1.5mm brass, so do not need extra bearings, and the chassis will be rigid, with the middle bearings a little slack to give some flexibility. The side rods will be split to give some play to the movement.

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

The hole in the boiler is for a clack feed valve, the pump is on the tank end, I expect Farish had a combined moulding to fit the two holes. The parts can be made in brass with copper wire for the pipes.

Stephen

[Ian Morgan]

 

Got to find some fine wire for the handrails in N/S

 

0.2mm and 0.3mm nickel silver rod is available from Albion Alloys on eBay.

[Chris Higgs]

0.2mm and 0.3mm nickel silver rod is available from Albion Alloys on eBay.

 

Better off using steel guitar strings? Much stronger for the thickness.

 

Chris