S7 scratch building

[airnimal]

Dave, when all this trouble is over i would be delighted to bring some wagons and a loco to around to run on you layout. If fact it would be a privilege to see your exquisite engines.

I have just added these large bolts on the ends but what are they connected to ?

Edited April 22, 2020 by airnimal

[Western Star]

Mike,

 

Thank you for posting a more complete image of the drawing.

 

If we assume that the bolt at the outer corner of the end and the two bolts along the top plank on the side sheeting are related to each other then my initial thought is that there is a "strap bolt" on the inside edge of the sheeting and that the screwed portion of that strap bolt comes through the end sheeting.  I expect that the drawing is meant to show a nut at the top corner of the end (rather than a bolt head) hence tightening of the nut retains the end planks in a fixed position relative to the sides.

 

regards, Graham

[airnimal]

Graham, it's the top bolt above the letter R on the side of this wagon that I am taking about. Is this connected to the end large bolt. Or is the large bolt only connected to the smaller bolts on the small corner plates.

[Compound2632]

I'm looking at the photos (in Midland Wagons Col. 1 p.30). I agree it's not at all obvious why a larger size of bolt was used there - I would assume there is simply an L-shaped piece of ironwork on the inside patching the one on the outside.

 

EDIT: apologies, I thought you were looking at the large bolt on the top corner plate. Now I understand which one you mean, I'm as puzzled as the next person. Does the inside corner-plate extend along this far? That might explain the large bolt on the end too. This really is the weirdest set of wagon ironwork I've come across. 

 

An oddity I've noticed is that the left-hand end of the solebar on both sides has flitch plate, extending from the end of the piece of curb rail that supports the door hinges right out to the metal hoop that goes round the end of the dumb buffer. Along with this, the outer spring shoe at this end is a replacement - a half-octagon shape rather than semi-circular. I don't have the drawing; maybe this is all shown. EDIT: Looking back, I see you have modelled this. The five-sided crown plate at the right-hand side on both sides is unusual, too. 

 

I was mis-remembering when I wrote that these photos were Derby officials. They're Gloucester RC&W Co. photos, dated Nov. 1893. Presumably Gloucester had the wagon in for repair under contract. Their seems to be some spot touching-up of paintwork, presumably in places where repairs have been made. One other feature is the M R lettering, which stands out boldly on the non-brake side but has almost completely faded away on the brake side - that's going to be a challenge to represent!

 

The wagon has been fitted with Midland axleboxes, of the slim 8A type use in the 1880s: 8" x 3½" journals. The right-hand one on the brake side is well out of true - about 10° to the vertical. Possibly the whhelbase has spread on this side owing to repeated over-enthusiastic application of the brake.

 

The Midland bought up 66,000 private owner wagons in the 1880s. In a return of stock on 31 Dec. 1894, there were still 21,260 on the books. They can't all have been as decrepit as this one. Here's another 4-plank ex-PO wagon in Midland service, second from the camera, along with some other delightfully antique PO wagons:

 

 

NRM DY 4064, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. I'm not sure of the date; it would be whenever this bridge at Kings Heath was renewed, as a photo of the new bridge is listed next in the register. 1890s, I should think.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Compound2632

[Western Star]

I have sent words and music to Ian Pope for his thoughts.

[Argos]

Numpty thought given I know little about wagon construction, could the bolt in question be to  fix a capping strip to the top plank?

[airnimal]

Argos, not sure about your suggestion. I thought the capping strips were just screwed into the top plank or all the way through if the wagon was only a low sided one.

Anyway I have taken a educated guess and made a long plate to go on the inside to match where the bolts / screws / rivets on the outside go. So we have a mixture of all 3 all over this wagon which will be fun.

MRJ came today and in it is a beautiful N.E.R coach built by Barry Norman who says it took a long time to make , a very long time. I happy to report this wagon is going the same way.

[airnimal]

Must remember to keep my concentration sharp when applying all this detail because the sides are different. Case in point drilling for the bolts on the sides. I drilled for 4 bolts then realised I had got the wrong side and had to cut 2 off and plug the holes with plastic rod. The MasterClub bolts are coming into there own on the plates on the solebars. 

Edited April 22, 2020 by airnimal

[Compound2632]

Oh, and in the photos, those flitch plates at the left hand ends look as if they've been used for target practice.

[Krusty]

I've seen photographs of wooden coal tubs with an iron band around the inside of the body at the top. Perhaps the builders of this wagon used a similar form of construction?

[airnimal]

Krusty, that is a possible but I have made the decision to go with just a longer inside corner plate.

I must have been mad to attempt this drilling hundreds of holes in 3 different sizes and putting all these rivets / nuts / bolts on a simple coal wagon. It's the sort of things lighthouse keepers or long term jail birds do. And when construction is finished I have got to paint it to look like the photos.

I have done a couple of hours this morning so to preserve my sanity will do a couple of hours out on the bike today.

Edited April 23, 2020 by airnimal

[Compound2632]

Yes, the flitch plates have been used for target practice! Nothing escapes Mike's attention to detail.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

1 hour ago, airnimal said:

I have done a couple of hours this morning...

 

Exquisite, just exquisite. Thank you for sharing

[Dave John]

Those bolt heads really do look the part. 

 

The extended corner plate looks right to me, I can't think of any other reason for the bolt being there. If it was an iron band all the way round I'd expect more bolts through the top plank over the door which would be a natural weak spot ? Just a guess. 

[airnimal]

I have cut a recess in the end of the buffer beams ready to take the hoops made from 10 X 30 Evergreen strip. I did think I could get away with just marking with a small nick with the scalpel but decided to go the hole hog and cut back like the prototype and put proper hoops on.The men in white coats are waiting in the wings just in case ....

[Regularity]

Not sure if it will console you, but Trevor Nunn when building a dumb-buffered PO wagon in S scale (68% of S7!) used wood, rather than styrene, and made the hoops from metal, each one from a single piece carefully folded and soldered.

You are not alone in the nut-house.

[ian@stenochs]

22 hours ago, airnimal said:

Krusty, that is a possible but I have made the decision to go with just a longer inside corner plate.

I must have been mad to attempt this drilling hundreds of holes in 3 different sizes and putting all these rivets / nuts / bolts on a simple coal wagon. It's the sort of things lighthouse keepers or long term jail birds do. And when construction is finished I have got to paint it to look like the photos.

I have done a couple of hours this morning so to preserve my sanity will do a couple of hours out on the bike today.

The different sizes certainly make a difference Mike. The moulded nuts certainly look better than the rod or glued on cubes of styrene that I have used in the past.  You certainly are leading the way in quality wagon building!

 

Can I ask a couple of questions please? Are you drilling the holes by hand or using a powered drill and where do you buy the moulded nuts?

 

Ian.

[airnimal]

Regularity, thats one way to make the hoops and if I was working in wood I probably have done the same. But I find I can make a neater job using plastic strip.

 

Ian, I drill the holes in a pin chuck by hand. All these nuts / bolts / rivets are obtained from Historex who are in Dover. 

Go to there web page and look up MasterClub / manufacturers and you will find there range. There mail order is very quick and efficient. I have and use hexagon nuts between .6mm and 1mm and rivets the same sizes both in flat spherical and domed types. One small problem is the do not glue with mek because they are resin. I put a drop of superglue on a small bit of plastic and them pick up the rivets with tweezers and dip the bottom in the glue and drop it in the hole. These small parts are slightly tapered so the hole must be big enough to accept them otherwise when glueing they sometimes don't go fully home. 

I have do one side now and as I got to put the last item on found out I had made a small error in the overall length of thee body. I have made it 1mm short which has only now shown up because when I put the label clip on it wouldn't quite fit the space between the 2 bolts near it. Well after all the hours I have put in I am not going to scrap it now.

Edited May 21, 2020 by airnimal

[Coal Tank]

I wouldn't either 

[Poggy1165]

Awesome workmanship, as ever. It's like watching David Silva play football.

[Caley Jim]

6 hours ago, airnimal said:

...... 

I have do one side now and as I got to put the last item on found out I had made a small error in the overall length of thee body. I have made it 1mm short which has only now shown up because when I put the label clip on it wouldn't quite fit the space between the 2 bolts near it. Well after all the hours I have put in I am not going to scrap it now.

Well, if you hadn't told us we'd be none the wiser, but we won't tell anyone if you don't! 

 

Jim 

[airnimal]

I forgot the small chain ring on the door side. So out came some PB wire and wound it around a small drill bit before cutting in lots of little rings. I then twisted some very fine brass wire together and soldered it on to one of these rings before glueing in a pre-drilled hole on the door.

The fine brass wire is 5 thou and was bought from Eilleens Emporium about 25 years ago for £1.50. I use this all the time and the roll I have will last me several lifetimes. When Eileen was at the helm there was all sorts of little oddments and off cuts available and it was always a pleasure to visit there stand ( Elieen & Jim's ) to see what they had found to bring joy to us modellers. 

 

[airnimal]

It's silly season time. I have punch out the washers from my dwindling stock of 5 thou black plasticard which measures between 6 and 8 thou. I have stuck them on the end stanchions with Limonene. I will let them to harden for a few hours before rubbing them down to as thin as possible before drilling them to accept the rivets. 

After a couple hours of madness I will get out on my bike again. I have been out for the past 3 days on it doing between 15 and 20 miles each time getting back in to it after the winter layoff. It's not far but if I keep at it I will be able to build up the miles again. I have got to keep old age at bay for as long as I can.

Edited April 25, 2020 by airnimal

[airnimal]

Having rubbed the washers down to nothing I drilled through the centre to place the rivets in. The washers distorted somewhat and one disappeared all together. I will replace a couple and try again. 

If you think Slaters springs fly off never to be seen again then .6 mm rivets are a close second.

If I keep going at this rate I will be able to paint it next week when the weather will probably be raining.

Edited April 26, 2020 by airnimal

[MarcD]

Very nice as always.

Marc