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S7 scratch building


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Gibson 7mm wheels were recommended to me for working with the Exactoscale arrangement.  Of course that only applies to FS and for S7 it has to be Slaters.  I open out the parallel bearings with a 1.85mm drill for the wheels to run and use 2 10BA washers on both ends to take out side play.  The axles should be shortened by removing the pinpoint bearings.

 

Charlie

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10 hours ago, Regularity said:

I thought the point there was to take off your shoe and shake out the stone?


well yes.  


my point was that some kits would require more effort to modify (both axleboxes and axles), so you build them as designed, and live with the trapped axles.

 

if we were starting again, we wouldn’t be starting from where we were  :)

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17 hours ago, Simond said:

apart from the finished appearance


Precisely as I said, “apart from the finished appearance”.

 

which I would agree is, in most cases, more like the prototype, but which, for me, was a compromise I was unwilling to accept for the reasons given.  I’m not of the “my way’s best” camp, every model is compromised in some way, some compromises are easier for some folks to accept than others.

 

I thought Mike’s comment was a gentle jibe.  I replied in kind.  No axe to grind.

 

atb

Simon
 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Simond
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53 minutes ago, Simond said:

Precisely as I said, “apart from the finished appearance”.

I recently saw someone posting they had put some inserts into their crossing vees, to support the flange so that the wheels didn’t drop into the gap. This was in 0 “fine”.

If the wheel tyres aren’t supported through the crossing nose, then it’s not just about the “finished appearance”.

 

I took your comment to be flippant and humorous, but your reasoning isn’t correct: it’s also about better running - the fact that 31.5mm gauge is increasingly being used for 0 gauge clearly shows that 0 fine has some problems.

 

Maybe it’s about the finished appearance of a train in motion?

 

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I always wondered why you can take loco wheels off to paint behind but not wagon wheels. It just seems odd you can do one but not the other.  Perhaps people don't look on wagons in the same light as locos.  If you paint everything before you assemble any kits how do you know if it going to run with any reliability once it's all put together. We have moved on from loco frames that were just two strip of plain brass with holes in them and pressed on wheels but we don't appear to have followed suit with wagon construction to the same extent. 

I fully understand why most people are happy to follow finescale and not go to the trouble of S7  and yes I was being a bit cheeky. 

 

Having built this chassis without any idea on what wagon I am going to make I have decided to a GWR van from this drawing. The W-irons are very similar design being just a few thou out and it will make a change for me because I don't have any GWR wagons at all. 

20210828_181244.jpg

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So, I've been wondering about these axles for a while but being a mere 00 jobber, had been reluctant to expose my ignorance by asking. Are plain axles running in top hat bearings the standard arrangement for 7 mm scale rolling stock? Are they what one would find in, say, a Slaters kit? (Nearly 30 years ago I built a Slaters 7 mm scale PO wagon kit as a display model but have no recollection.) What are the consequences for rolling resistance?

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2 hours ago, airnimal said:

I always wondered why you can take loco wheels off to paint behind but not wagon wheels. It just seems odd you can do one but not the other. 

I build the axle guards etc onto a subframe, for fitting later. I can spray paint this (usually black) and pop the wheels back in later, but in S, we aren’t using overly long axles, either. 
Some people - including the late Guy Williams - build their locos with a rigid rear axle, even if compensating the rest of the drivers, and have to paint behind them. 

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2 hours ago, airnimal said:

Having built this chassis without any idea on what wagon I am going to make I have decided to do a GWR van from this drawing. The W-irons are very similar design being just a few thou out and it will make a change for me because I don't have any GWR wagons at all.

A very nice choice - as far as I am aware the only trade7mm offering of this prototype was a resin kit from Meteor Models circa 2005 to 2010.  I suspect that the kit was not popular as the company offered the remaining stock to me - I bought all there was to buy.

 

When planning the sides/ends, be wary of the bottom two planks on the drawiing - I think that the "thin" plank was not a plank at all, rather the drawing shows the covered wagon after water run-off angles were fitted on the top edge of the bottom frame member.

 

regards, Graham

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12 minutes ago, Western Star said:

When planning the sides/ends, be wary of the bottom two planks on the drawiing - I think that the "thin" plank was not a plank at all, rather the drawing shows the covered wagon after water run-off angles were fitted on the top edge of the bottom frame member.

 

The best photo I could find quickly - sorry about the buffer stop in the way. Acton, after 1904:

 

715354166_Actonafter1904outsideframedmink.jpg.20d0ecdfeef2eb4bd1faebe7752713d1.jpg

 

... showing the angled top to the bottom framing. Graham, are you suggesting they were not built like that? If so any idea when the modification was made?

 

Here's my attempt (in 00, I do apologise) - resurrection of an ancient Ian Kirk kit:

 

271042894_GWoutsideframedvanNo.22598.JPG.96fc4d7dd6ac7769f860f6c20043f5d6.JPG

 

Now I look at it, no angled infill!

Edited by Compound2632
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6 hours ago, Regularity said:

I recently saw someone posting they had put some inserts into their crossing vees, to support the flange so that the wheels didn’t drop into the gap. This was in 0 “fine”.

If the wheel tyres aren’t supported through the crossing nose, then it’s not just about the “finished appearance”.

 

I took your comment to be flippant and humorous, but your reasoning isn’t correct: it’s also about better running - the fact that 31.5mm gauge is increasingly being used for 0 gauge clearly shows that 0 fine has some problems.

 

Maybe it’s about the finished appearance of a train in motion?

 


I’ve been an advocate of 0MF since I started building track, almost since I returned to 7mm;  it seems to me to be the ideal compromise thought it requires a willingness to take the plunge and build track, which some very competent modellers seem reluctant to do.  
 

You can run on others’ 0F or 0MF track, and you can use RTR without modification.  
 

and the running is much better than 0F, probably as good as S7.  :)
 

 

(then again, a bit of plasticene in the frog of 0F is actually quite good, looks horrid close up, but works remarkably well!) 

 

and, out of respect to Mike & his lovely models, if we want to chew the fat over the scale/gauge options, let’s do it elsewhere.  
 

atb

Simon

 

 

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2 hours ago, Simond said:

and, out of respect to Mike & his lovely models, if we want to chew the fat over the scale/gauge options, let’s do it elsewhere.  

Why did you kick it off with such a glib remark in the first place, then?

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14 hours ago, Simond said:

 

 

and, out of respect to Mike & his lovely models, if we want to chew the fat over the scale/gauge options, let’s do it elsewhere.  
 

atb

Simon

 

 

 

There is not really an elsewhere on the forum to discuss S7 general matters. Mike's "S7 scratch building" appears to have ended up being it. The last thread dedicated to S7 appears under 7mm+ modelling  "Scale7 East Anglian Area Group get together." which was back in 2017.

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1 hour ago, rocor said:

 

There is not really an elsewhere on the forum to discuss S7 general matters. Mike's "S7 scratch building" appears to have ended up being it. The last thread dedicated to S7 appears under 7mm+ modelling  "Scale7 East Anglian Area Group get together." which was back in 2017.

 

One could start a new topic.

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47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

One could start a new topic.

It would be pointless.

Anyone who understands the benefits of “Proto” standards either models to them, or admires those who do, but for various reasons doesn’t. 
Anyone who doesn’t understand the benefits can’t see the need.

End of story.

What Mike is showing here is that S7 is no more difficult than 0Fine, and in some respects it is easier: no extra cutouts (say, into boilers), better running due to matched tolerances, and so on. Plus, it looks better due to closer fidelity to the real thing. 

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On 28/08/2021 at 18:50, airnimal said:

I always wondered why you can take loco wheels off to paint behind but not wagon wheels. It just seems odd you can do one but not the other.  Perhaps people don't look on wagons in the same light as locos.  If you paint everything before you assemble any kits how do you know if it going to run with any reliability once it's all put together. We have moved on from loco frames that were just two strip of plain brass with holes in them and pressed on wheels but we don't appear to have followed suit with wagon construction to the same extent. 

I fully understand why most people are happy to follow finescale and not go to the trouble of S7  and yes I was being a bit cheeky. 

 

Having built this chassis without any idea on what wagon I am going to make I have decided to a GWR van from this drawing. The W-irons are very similar design being just a few thou out and it will make a change for me because I don't have any GWR wagons at all. 

20210828_181244.jpg

 

Be aware that this is one of the earlier builds: it has the diagonal framing reversed, and a wooden underframe.

 

 

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Sorry to anyone for being cheeky but I needed to find out why we still use long axles that can't be removed for maintenance/painting etc. Enough said. I will not mention it again. 

 

I don't feel confident modelling GWR wagons because I don't know a lot about them. Anyway I have made a start on this van. I borrowed a couple of books from a friend and found a drawing done by the late Mike Lloyd. I will probably end up producing a mongrel because I have not found a lot of photographs of these van's. I am probably looking in the wrong places. 

 

I have not done a lot today because I feel a bit tired after yesterday's bike ride. I went up the Goyt Valley and over the Cat and Fiddle road to Algreave and then back up again before heading home. 

20210830_182814.jpg

20210830_182904.jpg

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2 hours ago, airnimal said:

I have not done a lot today because I feel a bit tired after yesterday's bike ride. I went up the Goyt Valley and over the Cat and Fiddle road to Algreave and then back up again before heading home.

 

I'm not surprised! That's a fair bit of climbing... :o

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Nickey Line, you would think I had done well getting up those climbs but I still get grief from my older brother for being unfit. He is 3 years older than me at 73 but not married and can go out anytime he wants so is much fitter than me. I have the dec................ to do as well as looking after grandchildren. I am told we are having them 3 days next week with trips planned for lots of different activities. We are off to the dec............. store shortly to buy paint for 4 more rooms ! Deep joy. 

 

I looked at the drawing and came to the conclusion that the V-iron was not quite the right shape. So I removed them thinking I would have one that would fit the bill in my bits box. Not so.  I did fit one but I am not happy with it so I will probably end up scratch building one. This is going to be a long build without any guarantee I will finish it. My heart isn't really in it ! 

20210831_103346.jpg

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I have not had time at the workbench for the past few days because of the dreaded dec.............

I also have been on grandad duties taking grandsons and daughter out to see the telescope at Jodrell bank. The 3 year old has a great interest in the planets and the solar system.  He told the lady on the door all about dwarf stars and named all the planets in order that they orbit the earth.  He can write his own name and is learning to read and his little brother is following in the same manner. They don't get there brains from me !

 

I couldn't find a V-iron that matched the drawing so it was back cutting out my own. A couple of bits of nickel were soldered together before being drilled for the brake handle.  It's not perfect but it's better all the etched ones on my bits box. 

20210902_203745.jpg

20210902_212917.jpg

16306161482294152288635421307564.jpg

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On 30/08/2021 at 19:31, airnimal said:

Sorry to anyone for being cheeky but I needed to find out why we still use long axles that can't be removed for maintenance/painting etc. Enough said. I will not mention it again. 

 

Some of us don't. I shorten the axles by about 1mm each side and use 2 x 10BA washers to centralise the axle. This means they can be popped out any time I want.

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On 03/09/2021 at 11:45, airnimal said:

meil, I am glad the have found a solution to the problem.  Did you cut down the bearing as well to use without the pin point  ? How was the running compared to the original.  

 

 

 

It depends. If I'm using a Slater's kit as a basis then no - The axle boxes are separate and I use the length of the bearing to secure the axle box. If the axle box is attached to the spring then yes as I want the bearing to slide within the axle box so it is a benefit to shorten it.

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