S7 scratch building

[airnimal]

The basic shape is now nearly finished with just a few internal spars over the wheels and on the ends.

Even though I have made the width dead scale the axleboxes don't quite come out far enough, so I am going to increase them further apart and use some spacing washers on the ends of the axles.  I think it will be easier to compensate one end  rather than springing but that is not a firm conclusion yet. I may have to lower the axleboxes to get the ride height correct. 

 

I can't see any brakes in the photographs but they must be there because there is a hand wheel on one side. 

There are rather a lot of plates which go over the basic framework plus enough nuts and bolts to test my patience. 

 

I have taken about 12 hours on this so far but I think there is possible another 30 hours more yet. 

[airnimal]

Because of the ride height issues I have had to come up with a method of lowering the bearings and just use the axleboxes as cosmetic and not to carry the bearings. So I have come up with soldering a 12 BA screw across the end of the bearings and drilling a hole in the frames to take the 12 BA screws. This has worked out well but will need tweaking to take up the slack. I am not sure if I will be able to compensate using this method will I will keep on thinking as I progress. 

 

I have noticed that one end has pulled very slightly out of true by about 10 thou. This is probably my poor cutting out but it's to late now. I will put it down to a rough shunt. 

[airnimal]

Although I have mounted the wheels and they work well, I am not convinced this method is the way to go.

In the mean time I have made the last couple of parts over the wheels and on the edge.

Here's where I will have to ask for advice from those more knowledgeable than myself. Not being a Midland geek does anyone know if these wagons had a floor ?

Page 24 of Vol 2  Midland wagons state that they had wood and metal floors. But there isn't any photos or a detail description. Not having any of the Midland record magazine or being a member of the Midland society I am short of information. Any help would be grateful. 

[Compound2632]

Unfortunately the Midland Railway Study Centre doesn't have a copy of the drawing, Drg. 514, for these wagons; consequently there's not been anything on it in Midland Record. I've been peering very closely at the diagram and photos in Midland Wagons and I've started trying to sketch the wagon up. There's all sorts going on. As far as I can see, the basic construction is timber, clad with iron plate perhaps ½" - ¾" thick. My interpretation of the drawing is that there are four longitudinal timbers running the whole length of the wagon, with iron plate on both sides of each timber. The diagram states that the axles have 10" x 5" journals inside and outside, i.e. four bearings per axle, with the outside ones at the usual 6'6" centres, and the inside ones at 3'3" centres - shown by red vertical lines on my sketch. I've assumed that the wheel-side faces of each longitudinal are spaced in by equal amounts from these lines. The springs are centred on the red lines; the links are anchored to cast iron blocks bolted to the longitudinals. As drawn, the longitudinals come rather too close to the axles for there to be room for the axleboxes; I think there's a recess cut in the top of the longitudinal to give clearance - see Plate 272, p. 26. In Plate 269 the inscription on the frame above each axlebox reads EXAMINE THE AXLE BOX BEHIND THE WHEEL.

Apologies for lack of dimensions on the sketch but the width is 8'0".

 

Another feature is that the wagon is designed to be bowed upwards when not loaded - the bottom of the frame is 2" higher above rail level in the middle than at the ends. I imagine this could be bent in after the wagon is complete!

Edited August 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[airnimal]

What can I say other than I got this horrible wrong again. I have said for many years I have very poor observation skills as well as poor memory. Couple the two together and add dyslexia and it's a wonder I ever got anywhere in life.

I do wonder at time if dyslexia has a connection bebetween both these other conditions. 

When I was run down by lady motorist in 2005 and lost my memory for over six months I was sent to lots of specialist who concluded that my brain was wired up different to most other people. This amused my best friend who since then never fails to mention it when we are out in company.

 

Thanks to Compound for his information which has enable me to correct this c*** up before I get to far. 

[Compound2632]

Hi Mike, very glad to see you are continuing with this - I think it's a very challenging wagon to get one's head round despite looking deceptively simple at first sight. I have to say I was puzzling for a long time until the business of each axle having four bearings finally clicked. I was in two minds about posting in case I drove you to binning the whole thing!

[airnimal]

I have replaced all the cross members with new timbers. I am still trying to work out how to mount the wheels which isn't easy with such an open framework. I need something that enables me to remove the wheels for painting and provides the correct ride height in the process. Answers on a postcard to .........

[Poggy1165]

In the first volume of Tatlow's LNER Wagons, there is a photo of a wagon quite similar to this, built for the CLC. It does not have a floor. (The angle is just sufficient to make this clear.) All that is visible is a network of body pieces not unlike the above photo. What is not stated is whether the vehicle was to an MR design. It was built by a private contractor, Craven's of Sheffield, in 1909. (Page 151.)

 

Don't know if this much help, but it does suggest an absence of floor is quite possible.

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Poggy1165 said:

In the first volume of Tatlow's LNER Wagons, there is a photo of a wagon quite similar to this, built for the CLC. It does not have a floor. (The angle is just sufficient to make this clear.) All that is visible is a network of body pieces not unlike the above photo. What is not stated is whether the vehicle was to an MR design. It was built by a private contractor, Craven's of Sheffield, in 1909. (Page 151.)

 

Don't know if this much help, but it does suggest an absence of floor is quite possible.

 

I've had a look at that. It does look similar but I suspect that, given the 1909 build date, it is of all-steel construction, unlike the 1880s wood and iron construction of the Midland vehicle. I don't think the Midland was involved in its design, since Cravens built this CLC one 20 years after the last of the Midland vehicles and Midland trolley design had moved on! 

 

I know your main point was about the floor. Looking at the photos in Midland Wagons, it seems that loads were generally supported on baulks of timber or specially-shaped wooden cradles. The notes do say "Wood and metal floor" - which I take to refer to the composite construction - and "all wagons carry baulks".

 

But if you want a wagon that is really lacking in floor, the D325 / D326 deep case wagons are for you!

[airnimal]

Finally figured out a way of mounting the wheels from a small etch of some unknown W-irons that I had in my bits box. 

I am not sure what they are from but they fit the bill perfectly. I cropped them down and soldered them to a strip of nickel which has a couple of slots cut in to them. At first I just drilled a central hole on which to screw them to the frames but because there is so little clearance and the bearings got in the way of the screw I had to move the holes which became slots to allow for adjustment.

There is so little meat around the bearing hole but I am going to elongate this to allow a small amount of movement. 

I think will be necessary with such a long wheelbase.

Edited August 9, 2020 by airnimal

[airnimal]

Before I get any further I have decided to tackle the steel plates on the outsides because if I can't get these right it would be pointless continue with it. Compound estimates that they will be between 1/2"  and 3/4" thick which scales down to 11.48 and 17.22 thou thick. Now if I take the thicker size and round it up I can use 20 thou coloured plastkard which will be easier to see. It will be a bit thicker than it should be but will better to work with. I don't have the finesse of the master Geoff Kent with thinner plastikard.

So my first few pieces look promising. I have put a grove in to fold it round the corner. 

 

Did another 50 miles on the bike yesterday, was only suppose to be 40 but a couple of wrong turns from our leader added another 10 miles with a nasty climb at the end of the day. The experts tells this cycling lark is good for you and kits you fit. 

It makes me worn out and very tired so perhaps I am doing it wrong ! 

[airnimal]

Looking promising ! Just 3 more corners to do now.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, airnimal said:

Did another 50 miles on the bike yesterday, was only suppose to be 40 but a couple of wrong turns from our leader added another 10 miles with a nasty climb at the end of the day.

 

Takes me back to my teenage cycling days - a very long time ago. Why is there always a steep uphill stretch to the Youth Hostel? 

[Dave Hunt]

Excellent work as usual Mike. I used to be in awe of my friend David Jenkinson's abilities with plastic card and you are in the same league - accurate cutting and finishing with smooth edges, rounded corners smoothly blended in to straight lines and consistent results. Lovely to see.

 

Dave

[airnimal]

Dave, it is always good to have positive feedback on models that take quite a lot of time to construct. 

I was never any good at putting kits together either locos or rolling stock so I cut bits out of plastic. 

It was the introduction of Evergreen milled plastic section which elevated my  modelling from c**p to somethings half decent. I don't get right all the time because I make most of it up as I go along. 

This wagon has had the overlays stripped of more than once because the first attempt I tried to fold the yellow plastic around the corner after cutting a V shaped grove in the back but when I got up the next morning the corner had cracked along the bend.The second attempt I forgot to allow a little extra so the plate at the front of the well would blend in. 

So this is the third attempt so I hope I have got right now  otherwise I will have to take up drinking beer full time. 

 

As for cycling I can't do the very steepest hills nowadays. My brother is 3 years older than myself and he rides them all.

He even road the steepest road listed in the Guinness book of records, he's never walked a hill in over 40 years and he smoke and drinks for Britain which is not bad for 72. With any luck when this virus is finally beaten we can get to back to New Zealand and finish where I left of in 2007.

[ScottW]

If on the first attempt the bend cracked, how did you eventually manage to form the platework on the corners? Is it in two halves?

Edited August 11, 2020 by ScottW

[Dave Hunt]

Ah, one of the Midland's little-known harlequin wagons!

 

Dave

[airnimal]

ScottW, the first attempt I cut a grove with a scrapper board knife before folding. I used Mek to glue it to the sides which may have been to strong. So I went back to separate pieces but used Limonene to glue it. This has done the trick with just a light sanding once dry. 

 

I am now at the stage of adding all the nuts and bolts. Not having a drawing with the sizes on there's going to be a lot of guesswork. Looking at the photos in Vol 2 there appears to be a mixture of both nuts and bolts. If your in to locos and become a rivet counter, what do you become when you are in to wagons ? A bolt counter ?

 

Once I add all the bolts does this wagon becomes one of the rarer Midland spotted harlequin variety.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by airnimal

[airnimal]

I have started to add the bolts / nuts and already I am losing the will to live. This is going to be a long and laborious and I think this is going to test my patience. I have only done one corner and I have broken one drill plus drilled a couple of holes in the wrong place. The good thing with plastic is the ease of repairing with a bit of plastic rod. 

 

I have found in my never ending spares box a small etched hand wheel with the correct pattern of curly spokes and about the right daimeter. This looked a little flat so I formed some loops of .7 mm wire. I cut one out and solderd it to the etch wheel before smoothing it out in the drill. 

 

 

[Northroader]

(I’m giving you friendly /supportive ratings because of all those ******* bolts, I’d never have the patience or the finesse)

Edited August 12, 2020 by Northroader

[airnimal]

Northroader, this is testing my patience but if I break this down in to small amounts of time doing the tedious jobs I could get to the end. 

Looking at the photos constantly I keep seeing things I missed first time around. One such item are the plates covering the well which I thought were the same thickness as the plates over the wheels. I have changed my mind and I think there were slightly thinner. They look flush at one end of the wagon but at the other end there is a step down. Obviously the camera angle plays tricks so I have removed the plates on the side of the well ( the blue ones ) which were 20 thou thick and replaced them with one from 15 thou ( white ones ).

 

So I have made a start on the buffers. The backing plates have been built up and drilled to except modified Peco G.W.R buffers. The raised lip on the front of the body has been removed and holes drilled in the backing plates for the .6mm hexagonal bolts. The 2 bodies on the left have been modified while the 2 on the right are as bought. This is going to be a long job !

[kitpw]

...spectacular!

 

KitPW

Swan Hill - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill

[Caley Jim]

Wonderful stuff as always, Mike.

 

The CR had a similar vehicle, also with four bearings per axle.  Dia.34 30T trolley No.1.  Special wagons like this had their own number series.  It too is slightly bowed upwards in the centre.

 

 

One day I would like to model it and some other unusual trolley wagons the CR had.  That. however, will be by drawing up the artwork for etches.  Perhaps that is cheating a bit and not true scratch building as you are doing.

 

Jim

[airnimal]

Jim, that's a fine looking wagon. With the open framework you will not be able to fudge hiding the second pair of springs as I am doing on my build.

 

I don't think it matters how we build our models as long we enjoy our hobby. There has always been more than one way to skin a cat. It's just that I don't have the skills to do the modern way to do drawings for etching. I could do the old fashion way with pen and ink but the modern world left me behind long ago.

Mike

[Compound2632]

@Caley Jim, on this Caledonian trolley, do you know if there is a single axle with four bearings or is each wheel on its own stub axle? I'm just wondering how the bearing was accessed for maintenance. A stub axle would mean that standard axleboxes could be used inside and outside, rather than special inside bearing boxes being made.