Early dmu depots

[18B]

Hi

 

Just thinking about the early great Western DMUs and where were they maintained also what were the first proper DMU depots?

[The Johnster]

AFAIK, the GW railcars were maintained at and operated out of 'normal' steam sheds (depot is an LMS term that the GW did not use).  The early BR dmus from 1958 on had specific depots, or areas of depots converted to fuelling points and basic maintenance sheds for them; the ones I was familiar with in South Wales were; the dmu part of the carriage sidings at Canton, the converted Cathays shed (steam allocation transferred to Radyr), Barry Island (the site now occupied by the steam railway), Pontlottyn, and Treherbert.  The fuelling points were covered by black painted canopies between the roads, which offered some but minimal protection against the elements.  Canton, of course, serviced both the valleys sets and main line Cross Country and Inter City sets, a lot of work on just two fuelling roads, though they could accommodate 4 x 3-car sets and be accessed from both ends.

 

This dates from 1958 when the regular interval valleys timetable was dieselised with brand new Derby 3-car high intensity sets, but Swindon Inter-City sets, of the type with 'intermediate' gangwayed cab ends that were transferred to Scotland, not the later Swindon Inter-City 4-car units with B4 bogies and wrap-around cab windows, were used from 1956 on the Cardiff-Birmingham Snow Hill trains, and GW railcars had been previously used on this service.  The facilities at Canton may date to this, but I am unable to state this definitively.  Stationmaster might be able to help!

 

At Barry, dmus were stabled in a black corrugated iron carriage shed in the vee between the Vale of Glamorgan line and the Island branch, but I do not think any maintenance work beyond carriage cleaning took place there; the servicing facilities were on the island.

 

I suspect these facilities, and similar ones at Tyseley, St Philip's Marsh and Southall, would have been the first 'proper' diesel depots on the WR, but the first of what we regard as BR first generation dmus had been brought into use in 1954 on the Newcastle-Carlisle route, and I would imagine facilities provided for these trains would be the actual first of their type.  Manors and Upperby, I guess.

Edited April 27, 2017 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

I can't remember the details, but the GWR Diesel Railcars sometimes had their own shed, usually a lean to at the side of the steam shed.

 

Or a dedicated road like here at Stourbridge, http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p190563228/h2FDA9497#h2fda9497

 

If you see photos of them on shed then they are normally all grouped together away from the steam engines.

 

 

 

Jason

[Fat Controller]

AFAIK, the GW railcars were maintained at and operated out of 'normal' steam sheds (depot is an LMS term that the GW did not use).  The early BR dmus from 1958 on had specific depots, or areas of depots converted to fuelling points and basic maintenance sheds for them; the ones I was familiar with in South Wales were; the dmu part of the carriage sidings at Canton, the converted Cathays shed (steam allocation transferred to Radyr), Barry Island (the site now occupied by the steam railway), Pontlottyn, and Treherbert.  The fuelling points were covered by black painted canopies between the roads, which offered some but minimal protection against the elements.  Canton, of course, serviced both the valleys sets and main line Cross Country and Inter City sets, a lot of work on just two fuelling roads, though they could accommodate 4 x 3-car sets and be accessed from both ends.

 

This dates from 1958 when the regular interval valleys timetable was dieselised with brand new Derby 3-car high intensity sets, but Swindon Inter-City sets, of the type with 'intermediate' gangwayed cab ends that were transferred to Scotland, not the later Swindon Inter-City 4-car units with B4 bogies and wrap-around cab windows, were used from 1956 on the Cardiff-Birmingham Snow Hill trains, and GW railcars had been previously used on this service.  The facilities at Canton may date to this, but I am unable to state this definitively.  Stationmaster might be able to help!

 

At Barry, dmus were stabled in a black corrugated iron carriage shed in the vee between the Vale of Glamorgan line and the Island branch, but I do not think any maintenance work beyond carriage cleaning took place there; the servicing facilities were on the island.

 

I suspect these facilities, and similar ones at Tyseley, St Philip's Marsh and Southall, would have been the first 'proper' diesel depots on the WR, but the first of what we regard as BR first generation dmus had been brought into use in 1954 on the Newcastle-Carlisle route, and I would imagine facilities provided for these trains would be the actual first of their type.  Manors and Upperby, I guess.

The depot for the Tyneside units was the former electric shed at South Gosforth, not Manors: this, of course, subsequently became an electric depot again, when the Tyne and Wear Metro took over many of the local routes. 

Other depots from the earlier days of DMU operations included Leith (the former station, that gave 'Trainspotting' its title) Stoke (the former carriage shed at Cockshute)

Elsewhere, there were often fuelling facilities for units, where sets were maintained elsewhere. These included Maliphant sidings (stock maintained at Landore) and Edgar Street Sidings at Hereford.

[The Johnster]

The depot for the Tyneside units was the former electric shed at South Gosforth, not Manors: this, of course, subsequently became an electric depot again, when the Tyne and Wear Metro took over many of the local routes. 

Other depots from the earlier days of DMU operations included Leith (the former station, that gave 'Trainspotting' its title) Stoke (the former carriage shed at Cockshute)

Elsewhere, there were often fuelling facilities for units, where sets were maintained elsewhere. These included Maliphant sidings (stock maintained at Landore) and Edgar Street Sidings at Hereford.

 

Thank you for your elucidation, Brian.  Would Maliphant and Edgar Street have been pre-1956?

[chrisf]

I seem to recall that the fuelling point at Rhymney, rather than Pontlottyn, was just north of the station on the stub of the branch to Rhymney Bridge, closed in 1953.  There is a photo in an issue of Railway Magazine, October 1963 I think.  I also seem to recall that the use of Canton by Valleys sets was initially confined to those working out of Newport, nominally based at Godfrey Road sidings but with CDF4xx set numbers.  The Cathays based sets used in the Cardiff Valleys had CAT3xx set numbers.  When Cathays closed, circa 1964, its work and fleet was transferred to an enlarged Canton depot and this was eventually reflected in the set numbers.

 

I remember the carriage shed at Barry very well.  My grandparents lived in Park Avenue, Barry, and a grandstand view wad to be had.  The shed had six roads under cover and another two alongside.  it was not quite long enough to accommodate two 3 car sets under cover so one car would protrude.  In 1958 at least there were timetabled trips between Barry and Barry Island during the night so that the sets could be fuelled at the Island.  The 10 year old Chris was actively discouraged from observing these movements from the bedroom window!   The shed was flattened years ago after a period of dereliction and the site now accommodates housing development.

[Fat Controller]

Thank you for your elucidation, Brian.  Would Maliphant and Edgar Street have been pre-1956?

I'm not sure; I think (bearing in mind I was only little at the time) that the dieselisation west of Swansea was very late 1950s or early 1960s. Certainly, I remember some trips from Llanelli and Swansea behind steam power. Just looked at John Hodge's excellent 'Swansea to Llanelly' album, where there is reference to 1959 as the first year for operation with Swansea-based DMMUs.

[The Johnster]

I seem to recall that the fuelling point at Rhymney, rather than Pontlottyn, was just north of the station on the stub of the branch to Rhymney Bridge, closed in 1953.  There is a photo in an issue of Railway Magazine, October 1963 I think.  I also seem to recall that the use of Canton by Valleys sets was initially confined to those working out of Newport, nominally based at Godfrey Road sidings but with CDF4xx set numbers.  The Cathays based sets used in the Cardiff Valleys had CAT3xx set numbers.  When Cathays closed, circa 1964, its work and fleet was transferred to an enlarged Canton depot and this was eventually reflected in the set numbers.

 

I remember the carriage shed at Barry very well.  My grandparents lived in Park Avenue, Barry, and a grandstand view wad to be had.  The shed had six roads under cover and another two alongside.  it was not quite long enough to accommodate two 3 car sets under cover so one car would protrude.  In 1958 at least there were timetabled trips between Barry and Barry Island during the night so that the sets could be fuelled at the Island.  The 10 year old Chris was actively discouraged from observing these movements from the bedroom window!   The shed was flattened years ago after a period of dereliction and the site now accommodates housing development.

 

I was an anklebiter at the time, and it is probably only due to this protrusion of the front cars that I was aware of the old shed's use!  I think the end was in 1964, after which the sets were stabled in the open on the island.

Edited April 29, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Stationmaster]

The Western DMU depots that I can recall are as follows -

 

1. Brand new buildings for maintenance but also usable for servicing -

 

Reading on part of the overall site of the steam shed but not involving any demolitions),

Marsh Jcn, Bristol - I believe was on site of former carriage sidings and I don't know if any buildings were demolished.

Laira - but basically only as art of the overall new depot

Tyseley possibly but I'm not certain on the depot details or if it was indeed part of the original WR dieselisation scheme

Westbury - two separate buildings allowing each end of a 3 car set to be worked on while the centre car stood in the open between the two building - unique design I beleve (but am happy to hear of others

 

2. Servicing/maintenance facilities in converted parts of existing buildings -

Southall - 2 roads of the existing steam shed

Canton - 2 (I think) roads of the existing carriage shed 

Plymouth Millbay - in the former station building although I don't know to what extent things were altered from its immediately previous role for carriage sidings/servicing.

 

3. Servicing facilities in otherwise demolished previous buildings with one wall left (usually for ofices and stores etc

Exeter (previously the steam shed

 

4. Outdoor fuel & Inspection points provided with a sort of half canopy over roads either side - never seen one modelled but very much typical of the WR of that time -

West London (former carriage sidings),

Southall (in front of the DMU maintenance section of the shed),

Reading Triangle Sdgs (former carriage sidings, later the site of the Turbo maintenance & servicing shed),

Oxford I think, not entirely sure on that one

Leamington (on former carriage sidings)

Tyseley (on former carriage sidings)

Marsh Jcn - near the maintenance shed I believe

Newport Godfrey Road (on former sidings, site of the original GWR engine shed closed when Ebbw Jcn opened)

I don't know if there were any in the Eastern/Western Valleys but quite possible

Rhymney - see Chris F's post above

Treherbert (on the site of former carriage sidings)

I don't think there was anything at Merthyr but am not entirely sure of that

Barry Island on former carriage sidings beyond the station

Swansea Maliphant - not sure if it had the canopy arrangement.

I'm reasonably sure there was nothing west of Swansea although fuelling might have been possible at Carmarthen?

 

Plymouth - I believe (but am open to correction) there was a servicing facility in the vicinity of Harwell Street at the time Millbay was the DMU maintenance facility, presumed to be on or near the sidings which had once been the site of Harwell Street engine shed.

 

I don't know of anything west of Plymouth but there was obviously some sort of facility (of what type/origin) at Penzance and was there anything for DMU servicing at Par I wonder - can't recall seeing anything.

 

That's about as complete a list as I can manage without assistance.  I think the last surviving Fuel & Inspection point half-shelter arrangement might still exist at Tyseley but as far as I know all the others have gone and some are long gone.  They were not particularly pleasant places to work in bad weather as the shelter did nothing of the kind at some of the sites - especially Reading Triangle where it was on top of an embankment and various changes over the years never improved things.

[Clive Mortimore]

The Western DMU depots that I can recall are as follows -

 

1. Brand new buildings for maintenance but also usable for servicing -

 

Reading on part of the overall site of the steam shed but not involving any demolitions),

Marsh Jcn, Bristol - I believe was on site of former carriage sidings and I don't know if any buildings were demolished.

Laira - but basically only as art of the overall new depot

Tyseley possibly but I'm not certain on the depot details or if it was indeed part of the original WR dieselisation scheme

Westbury - two separate buildings allowing each end of a 3 car set to be worked on while the centre car stood in the open between the two building - unique design I beleve (but am happy to hear of others

 

2. Servicing/maintenance facilities in converted parts of existing buildings -

Southall - 2 roads of the existing steam shed

Canton - 2 (I think) roads of the existing carriage shed 

Plymouth Millbay - in the former station building although I don't know to what extent things were altered from its immediately previous role for carriage sidings/servicing.

 

3. Servicing facilities in otherwise demolished previous buildings with one wall left (usually for ofices and stores etc

Exeter (previously the steam shed

 

4. Outdoor fuel & Inspection points provided with a sort of half canopy over roads either side - never seen one modelled but very much typical of the WR of that time -

West London (former carriage sidings),

Southall (in front of the DMU maintenance section of the shed),

Reading Triangle Sdgs (former carriage sidings, later the site of the Turbo maintenance & servicing shed),

Oxford I think, not entirely sure on that one

Leamington (on former carriage sidings)

Tyseley (on former carriage sidings)

Marsh Jcn - near the maintenance shed I believe

Newport Godfrey Road (on former sidings, site of the original GWR engine shed closed when Ebbw Jcn opened)

I don't know if there were any in the Eastern/Western Valleys but quite possible

Rhymney - see Chris F's post above

Treherbert (on the site of former carriage sidings)

I don't think there was anything at Merthyr but am not entirely sure of that

Barry Island on former carriage sidings beyond the station

Swansea Maliphant - not sure if it had the canopy arrangement.

I'm reasonably sure there was nothing west of Swansea although fuelling might have been possible at Carmarthen?

 

Plymouth - I believe (but am open to correction) there was a servicing facility in the vicinity of Harwell Street at the time Millbay was the DMU maintenance facility, presumed to be on or near the sidings which had once been the site of Harwell Street engine shed.

 

I don't know of anything west of Plymouth but there was obviously some sort of facility (of what type/origin) at Penzance and was there anything for DMU servicing at Par I wonder - can't recall seeing anything.

 

That's about as complete a list as I can manage without assistance.  I think the last surviving Fuel & Inspection point half-shelter arrangement might still exist at Tyseley but as far as I know all the others have gone and some are long gone.  They were not particularly pleasant places to work in bad weather as the shelter did nothing of the kind at some of the sites - especially Reading Triangle where it was on top of an embankment and various changes over the years never improved things.

Hi Mike

 

Newton Abbott had a similar arrangement where the center car stood out  in the rain. Two shelters for servicing both diesel locos and units along side the shed buildings. I think Laira had something very similar.

[Clive Mortimore]

The first proper purpose built diesel multiple unit depots must go to the Eastern Region, Norwich, Darnell-Sheffield , Stratford "A shed", Lincoln, Cambridge, and Western Sidings-Finsbury Park, all built to the same design. All built before any loco depots. 

 

The NER DMU depots were mainly rebuilt engine sheds, or if like Darlington "new build" were made to look like rebuilt steam sheds.

 

LMR DMU sheds of the modernisation period include Cricklewood, Newton Heath, Allerton, Chester, Beltchley and Marylebone.

 

I looked into building a DMU shed but the headshunts, shed building, fuel points etc would have to be able to accommodate at least a 4 car unit which makes for a very long layout.

[The Johnster]

The Western DMU depots that I can recall are as follows -

 

1. Brand new buildings for maintenance but also usable for servicing -

 

Reading on part of the overall site of the steam shed but not involving any demolitions),

Marsh Jcn, Bristol - I believe was on site of former carriage sidings and I don't know if any buildings were demolished.

Laira - but basically only as art of the overall new depot

Tyseley possibly but I'm not certain on the depot details or if it was indeed part of the original WR dieselisation scheme

Westbury - two separate buildings allowing each end of a 3 car set to be worked on while the centre car stood in the open between the two building - unique design I beleve (but am happy to hear of others

 

2. Servicing/maintenance facilities in converted parts of existing buildings -

Southall - 2 roads of the existing steam shed

Canton - 2 (I think) roads of the existing carriage shed 

Plymouth Millbay - in the former station building although I don't know to what extent things were altered from its immediately previous role for carriage sidings/servicing.

 

3. Servicing facilities in otherwise demolished previous buildings with one wall left (usually for ofices and stores etc

Exeter (previously the steam shed

 

4. Outdoor fuel & Inspection points provided with a sort of half canopy over roads either side - never seen one modelled but very much typical of the WR of that time -

West London (former carriage sidings),

Southall (in front of the DMU maintenance section of the shed),

Reading Triangle Sdgs (former carriage sidings, later the site of the Turbo maintenance & servicing shed),

Oxford I think, not entirely sure on that one

Leamington (on former carriage sidings)

Tyseley (on former carriage sidings)

Marsh Jcn - near the maintenance shed I believe

Newport Godfrey Road (on former sidings, site of the original GWR engine shed closed when Ebbw Jcn opened)

I don't know if there were any in the Eastern/Western Valleys but quite possible

Rhymney - see Chris F's post above

Treherbert (on the site of former carriage sidings)

I don't think there was anything at Merthyr but am not entirely sure of that

Barry Island on former carriage sidings beyond the station

Swansea Maliphant - not sure if it had the canopy arrangement.

I'm reasonably sure there was nothing west of Swansea although fuelling might have been possible at Carmarthen?

 

Plymouth - I believe (but am open to correction) there was a servicing facility in the vicinity of Harwell Street at the time Millbay was the DMU maintenance facility, presumed to be on or near the sidings which had once been the site of Harwell Street engine shed.

 

I don't know of anything west of Plymouth but there was obviously some sort of facility (of what type/origin) at Penzance and was there anything for DMU servicing at Par I wonder - can't recall seeing anything.

 

That's about as complete a list as I can manage without assistance.  I think the last surviving Fuel & Inspection point half-shelter arrangement might still exist at Tyseley but as far as I know all the others have gone and some are long gone.  They were not particularly pleasant places to work in bad weather as the shelter did nothing of the kind at some of the sites - especially Reading Triangle where it was on top of an embankment and various changes over the years never improved things.

 

Thank you Mike; we can rely on you for definitive and accurate information.  Canton had (and AFAIK still has) a 2 road dmu maintenance shed which was a sort of annex on the south side of the the carriage shed and slightly shorter than that building, with, IIRC, lit inspection pits (the carriage shed ones were not lit), where engine changes and similar operations were carried out under cover, and 2 roads outside alongside that for the servicing sidings and fuelling point with the hopeless canopies failing to provide much protection from the elements.  I was always under the impression that this annex building had been constructed for the specific purpose of dmu maintenance, as it was separated by a wall from the main carriage shed and not only shorter but to a different profile and had a sort of 50s feel to it, but cannot state this definitively.  It was a very busy place, 24/7, as the dmu maintenance staff struggled to keep up with the demands of providing trains that worked for the valleys services; in the hot summer of 1976 they came very close to being overwhelmed by failed sets!  Dmus were stabled on the roads immediately adjacent to the fuelling point, and loco hauled stock further out.

 

I am not aware of any specific dmu facilities at Merthyr, Aberdare, or the Newport Valleys at any time, and if there were canopies at Maliphant they had gone by the early 70s.  The facilities at Godfrey Road were out of use by 1965, and probably from the end of the Newport Valleys dmu services in 1962, but dmus from the Newport-Cheltenham service were stabled there much later than this; fuelling and servicing were carried out at Canton, at least in the 70s.

Edited May 1, 2017 by The Johnster

[Rivercider]

This was the refuelling point at Marsh Junction in Bristol in 1980, is this a typical arrangement?

 

Cardiff Canton class 120 set 555 is at the fuel point, B133 (55033) is in the distance, 8/6/80

 

cheers

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

This was the refuelling point at Marsh Junction in Bristol in 1980, is this a typical arrangement?

 

scan0016.jpg

Cardiff Canton class 120 set 555 is at the fuel point, B133 (55033) is in the distance, 8/6/80

 

cheers

 

That's the standard WR 'Fuel & Inspection Point' canopy arrangement that I mention above  - something I've never seen modelled or ever seen any drawings of and even a picture and mention of them in MRJ failed to tease any information (apart from mine) or drawings out of the woodwork.

[The Johnster]

That's pretty much as I remember them, with inspection pits. and a lot of spilled fuel about.  They must have been very unpleasant places to work at in winter or wet weather, and IIRC at Canton engine changes and the like were done in the two-road 'dmu shed' alongside the fuelling point and an addition to the older carriage shed building.  Units awaiting duty could be stabled in the carriage shed proper, where there were inspection pits, or outside between the fuelling point and the North Curve single running line; I cannot remember anything but coaching stock being stabled on the roads to the south of this.  

 

They'd make a good prototype for an RTP kit, in modular form, and would sell well enough I reckon, being easily adapted to other uses.

[The Stationmaster]

That's pretty much as I remember them, with inspection pits. and a lot of spilled fuel about.  They must have been very unpleasant places to work at in winter or wet weather, and IIRC at Canton engine changes and the like were done in the two-road 'dmu shed' alongside the fuelling point and an addition to the older carriage shed building.  Units awaiting duty could be stabled in the carriage shed proper, where there were inspection pits, or outside between the fuelling point and the North Curve single running line; I cannot remember anything but coaching stock being stabled on the roads to the south of this.  

 

They'd make a good prototype for an RTP kit, in modular form, and would sell well enough I reckon, being easily adapted to other uses.

 

Reading triangle was definitely an extremely nasty place to be and during inclement weather it was even worse as the wind and rain blew straight across it although the centre windbreak did help a bit and it was even better if there was a set on the outside (windward) road.  The original Canton dmu maintenance shed was a much cosier but being dead end was a pig of a place to work and (until my report) was a somewhat mismanaged so exams were often left incomplete on the last set in, especially if there was work arising.  Once I had lifted the veil in my report - which had sent the Asst Divisional Manager almost into orbit - I was sent back there with one of Divisional Duty Managers (who was an mechanical engineer as it happened) and a number of changes were made to working practices which improved things considerably.

[The Johnster]

Reading triangle was definitely an extremely nasty place to be and during inclement weather it was even worse as the wind and rain blew straight across it although the centre windbreak did help a bit and it was even better if there was a set on the outside (windward) road.  The original Canton dmu maintenance shed was a much cosier but being dead end was a pig of a place to work and (until my report) was a somewhat mismanaged so exams were often left incomplete on the last set in, especially if there was work arising.  Once I had lifted the veil in my report - which had sent the Asst Divisional Manager almost into orbit - I was sent back there with one of Divisional Duty Managers (who was an mechanical engineer as it happened) and a number of changes were made to working practices which improved things considerably.

 

i assume your changes were in place by my time in the early 1970s; my memory of the place, which of course may not be correct, is of facilities for maintenance and fuelling being accessible from both ends.  I didn't have much to do directly with this particular corner of the depot, mind, except in the very hot summer of 1976 when it was not unusual to pick a set up from the maintenance shed and work a service with it, only to return it whence it came later in the day for work to continue, such was the shortage of working sets.  I was on one occasion sent to Rhymney with only 2 engines working. and a colleague worked and ad hoc Bute Road shuttle with only one for a full day!

 

Desperate time, under that pitiless sun...

Edited March 22, 2018 by The Johnster

[rodent279]

Westbury - two separate buildings allowing each end of a 3 car set to be worked on while the centre car stood in the open between the two building - unique design I beleve (but am happy to hear of others

I have to ask-why?

 

Was there really a big cost saving in not providing a shed to accommodate a 3 car set in it's entirety?

[Phil Bullock]

So what we have had so far is early BR DMUs - the OP also asked about the original GWR units

 

At Worcester a dedicated facility for the latter was created in a section of the old wagon works.

 

http://rcts.zenfolio.com/diesel/gwr/other/hA13DE33B#ha13de33b

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/glevumblues/6471059913/in/photolist-aqJ9Au-bm8ofE-WwSiob-qkUK92-qCjUjk-aRPSEv-ayCYq6-edBxLt-93VJxy-ABf3MS-BsV3hW-JM6aH5

 

Across the main line from the loco depot with all those dirty steamers....in the early 60s shunters and main line diesels were serviced there too, until the depot closed to steam in 1965 and the diesels moved in.

 

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

I have to ask-why?

 

Was there really a big cost saving in not providing a shed to accommodate a 3 car set in it's entirety?

 

Presumably done to save money but it was definitely a cock-eyed arrangement when it came to be used for loco servicing and exams later in its lfe.