Cheltenham - Stratford Upon Avon Train Frequency

[TheSignalEngineer]

The problem now at the Cheltenham end is that their is limited access / clearance between the retaining wall and the new building which has been erected in the vee of the old junction. Doesn't hurt to dream though...

There's also other encroachment onto the trackbed through the town at Honeybourne Way, big new bridge would be needed, and just south of Hunting Butts at the Prince of Wales Stadium.

 

 

I suspect that it is someone dreaming out loud, but I have heard suggestions (but I can't remember where) of making a new connection on the north side of Cheltenham rather than trying to reopen the route through the town.

 

Adrian

There has been a lot of discussion on the National Preservation forum in the past, can't remember any details.

[Rugd1022]

D1744 was one of the last Brush 4s in two tone green with small yellow panels (possibly the very last one, I'm sure someone here will know), it's seen here passing through the Racecourse c.1970 on a northbound service, diverted this way due to engineering work on the Midland route...

 

 

Peak 34 on 1V83 12.00 Liverpool - Plymouth crossing Stanway viaduct north of Toddington on 14th March 1970...

 

 

Peak 166 emerging from Hunting Butts Tunnel just south of the racecourse with 1M91 08.20 Plymouth - Liverpool on 14th March 1970...

 

 

Peak 27 approaching Southam Road bridge just north of the racecourse with 1N24 Bristol - Derby on 21st April 1968, photo by A.Black...

 

 

D1947 somewhere near Gotherington I think, no date but the third vehicle is a Hawksworth, photo by A.Black...

 

 

Southbound Leamington Spa - Gloucester shuttle service at Bishops Cleeve c.1968, photo by A.Black...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

It begs the question as to whether the line should ever have been built. It was a relative late-comer, only opening around 1910. The GWR must have thought it was worthwhile to try to get a shorter route from the West Midlands to the South West in an attempt to win traffic from the Midland route. They had just opened the North Warwickshire line between Tyseley and Bearley Junction giving a better route to Stratford-upon Avon but that in itself was probably hard to justify. It was said that the only reason that the GWR took it on when the original North Warwickshire project failed was that the Great Central had designs on taking over along with buying the financially-challenged SMJ line to give it a through route from the West Midlands to London and the South-East.

 

Very true - in passenger terms I don't think it was ever a truly important route for regular traffic - the Winter 1952 timetable shows only 8 through trains from Gloucester to Stratford on a weekday plus the 'The Cornishman' and of the 8 only two were through from South Wales to Birmingham so it hardly rated as an important passenger train through route in post-war terms.  On Sundays there were no booked passenger trains at all on any part of the route between Stratford and Cheltenham in the Winter (1952/53) timetable period.

 

The stopping train service south of Honeybourne was typically (G)WR secondary route abysmal with only 6 weekday trains in each direction (one of which in each direction made a limited number of stops) plus two Saturday only out & back workings from Cheltenham to Broadway.  Added to that the last weekday train northbound left Cheltenham at 18.15 although there was the 22.20 to Broadway on Saturdays.  The service between Honeybourne and Stratford was better with far more trains (13 weekdays, 14 on Saturdays northbound) stopping at the intermediate stations but overall it is hardly surprising that local services largely disappeared in the wholesale slaughter of relatively lightly used - but expensive to operate - former GWR secondary routes, branches, and intermediate stations which preceded the arrival of Dr Beeching.

 

The comment about blanketing is very interesting as it must have been one of the earlier examples on the WR and I do wonder if it was in some respects a try out for the massive formation blanketing programme which took place elsewhere on the WR - but particularly in the Thames Valley and, to a lesser extent, on the Bristol and South Wales routes from the early/mid 1960s onwards?

 

PS Incidentally the pre-war service to intermediate stations south of Honeybourne was a bit better although there were only 5 or 6 (depending on direction) through trains between Honeybourne and Cheltenham there were more trains working between Cheltenham and Broadway plus there was a service, of 2 trains, on Sundays serving a limited number of stations on that section.  The overall reduction south of Broadway, between 1929 and 1952 would seem to reflect far more than anything else the impact of road motor 'bus competition.

Edited May 1, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[D854_Tiger]

Whilst the usefulness of this route may have been questionable, from a passenger perspective, it did have one important advantage for freight.

 

There was no Lickey incline and neither was there an Old Hill bank to negotiate an altogether more suitable operation for freight.

 

This was undoubtedly why it survived longer as a freight only route, unfitted trains would have had to stop both going up and going down via the alternative routes.

 

Although nowadays Lickey and Old Hill only handle a couple of freights a day, that need banking, that hasn't always been the case so you do wonder why the Bromsgrove route was preferred, with so much freight still around in the 1980s and 1990s, resulting in an all day and all night banking operation.

 

Pathing freight trains must have been a breeze in those days as well, only one DMU an hour to compete with over the North Warwickshire line and even then half of those terminated at Henley.

[D854_Tiger]

Very true - in passenger terms I don't think it was ever a truly important route for regular traffic - the Winter 1952 timetable shows only 8 through trains from Gloucester to Stratford on a weekday plus the 'The Cornishman' and of the 8 only two were through from South Wales to Birmingham so it hardly rated as an important passenger train through route in post-war terms.  On Sundays there were no booked passenger trains at all on any part of the route between Stratford and Cheltenham in the Winter (1952/53) timetable period.

 

 

Via Gloucester South Wales trains switched to New St in 1962 but even then only about three or four times a day did Cross Country services prefer to head for Cardiff rather than Bristol. The rest of the day it was the norm to see a small herd of passengers crossing the bridge from Eastgate to Central to make the South Wales connection from a West of England bound Cross Country service.

 

When Snow Hill was still open the preferred route to South Wales always was via Kidderminster, Worcester and Hereford, a limited stop service that continued right up until 1967 with a Cross Country DMU every two hours Birmingham Snow Hill through to Swansea.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Whilst the usefulness of this route may have been questionable, from a passenger perspective, it did have one important advantage for freight.

 

There was no Lickey incline and neither was there an Old Hill bank to negotiate an altogether more suitable operation for freight.

 

This was undoubtedly why it survived longer as a freight only route, unfitted trains would have had to stop both going up and going down via the alternative routes.

 

Although nowadays Lickey and Old Hill only handle a couple of freights a day, that need banking, that hasn't always been the case so you do wonder why the Bromsgrove route was preferred, with so much freight still around in the 1980s and 1990s, resulting in an all day and all night banking operation.

 

Pathing freight trains must have been a breeze in those days as well, only one DMU an hour to compete with over the North Warwickshire line and even then half of those terminated at Henley.

The bank out of Stratford-upon-Avon is not insignificant, at 1 in 75 to Wilmcote then 1 in 150 to Earlswood Lakes. For instance a Hall was only allowed about 23 wagons on a fast freight up to Wilmcote. In 1960 there was a 24-hour Banker (T23) at Stratford-upon-Avon for assisting trains as far as Bearley Junction or Earlswood Lakes. Unfitted freights were often booked 75 minutes from Stratford -upon-Avon to Bordesley.

In the case of passenger trains requiring assistance it was usually coupled inside in GWR fashion. A second loco (T24) worked early and late turns on the trip to Old Town, shunting and banking as required. 

As for pathing, although most of the boxes were open early and late turns, only Bearley Junction and Earlswood Lakes were open continuously

[The Stationmaster]

The bank out of Stratford-upon-Avon is not insignificant, at 1 in 75 to Wilmcote then 1 in 150 to Earlswood Lakes. For instance a Hall was only allowed about 23 wagons on a fast freight up to Wilmcote. In 1960 there was a 24-hour Banker (T23) at Stratford-upon-Avon for assisting trains as far as Bearley Junction or Earlswood Lakes. Unfitted freights were often booked 75 minutes from Stratford -upon-Avon to Bordesley.

In the case of passenger trains requiring assistance it was usually coupled inside in GWR fashion. A second loco (T24) worked early and late turns on the trip to Old Town, shunting and banking as required. 

As for pathing, although most of the boxes were open early and late turns, only Bearley Junction and Earlswood Lakes were open continuously

 

A minor point - it was not the 'GWR fashion' for engines assisting passenger trains (front) ti be coupled inside the train engine except where it was specifically required for local operating reasons.  In all other cases the matter of which engine went inside depended on the relative size of the two engines and whether or not they were tank engines of a particular wheel arrangement.  I listed all the details, with most of the changes in procedure dated, some time back but I doubt I can find the thread now (one of the Brent threads I think)

 

Surprise, surprise - I've found the thread - here for anyone interested (specifically Posts 18 & 27) -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/114696-gwr-banking-pilot-engines-operation-brent/

Edited May 4, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[TheSignalEngineer]

A minor point - it was not the 'GWR fashion' for engines assisting passenger trains (front) ti be coupled inside the train engine except where it was specifically required for local operating reasons. In all other cases the matter of which engine went inside depended on the relative size of the two engines and whether or not they were tank engines of a particular wheel arrangement. I listed all the details, with most of the changes in procedure dated, some time back but I doubt I can find the thread now (one of the Brent threads I think)

 

Surprise, surprise - I've found the thread - here for anyone interested (specifically Posts 18 & 27) -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/114696-gwr-banking-pilot-engines-operation-brent/

Thanks Mike. Assisting engines I saw at Stratford-upon-Avon were either a 51xx or 2251 Class. I remember one particular occasion when we had a Manor on a Summer Saturday train the driver was complaining about the state of the loco when we stopped for water at Cheltenham. We had 3217 coupled inside from Stratford to Earlswood Lakes.

An old colleague who was a signalman at Milcote in the 1950s told me of hand signals from drivers passing his box which were interpreted as loop me to take water, assistance required or I want to take a run at the bank.

['CHARD]

Fascinating thread this, for what I am gradually concluding, was somewhat of a Cinderella line.  Keep the dialogue coming, and Nidge, those pictures are nothing short of fantastic!

[Rob F]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but a recent visit to the GWSR prompted this question.

 

What was the linespeed of the Honeybourne line in BR days, before becoming freight only?

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, Rob F said:

What was the linespeed of the Honeybourne line in BR days, before becoming freight only?

 

Extracts from the 1959 Working Timetable

 

General note

 

Line Specific entry

 

Note that 90mph was permitted between Honeybourne and Stratford as opposed to the usual 75mph blanket restriction normally applicable.

[Rob F]

Interesting, thanks. So other than the above restrictions it would have been all 75mph between Honeybourne and Cheltenham.

 

What do you think the limit would be today, if maintained to modern standards?

[Rugd1022]

I'd say it would probably be 90 for the most part with lower restrictions here and there.