Questions on Southern region milk trains

[Stormbringer]

Hi all

I'm slowly building up a small rake of milk tankers to go behind either a Q1 (C8) or a Br liveried N class and was wondering

 

A; which would be more appropriate behind the tankers, a Queen Mary bogie brake van or a Maunsell Van C?

 

B; If the loco had to run round it's train would they also change the brake van round so it's still at the rear of the train or would it be left marshalled behind the loco?

 

TIA

 

Pete

[tchunter]

Hi Pete

 

There is a bit of information about milk traffic at

 

http://www.svsfilm.com/nineelms/torr.htm

 

May be of some use, there are a few pictures etc, also picture at

 

http://www.sutton.gov.uk/media/image/n/f/Heritage_SuttonGoodsYard3_2.jpg

 

Seems as though an old brake coach was used sometimes.

 

Neil

[Stormbringer]

Thanks Neil, some useful pics and info there. Methinks I'd better go read Dave Wilsons book "Black Clouds and White Feathers" again to see if he wrote about milk trains.

 

Regards

Pete

[Mallard60022]

Thanks Neil, some useful pics and info there. Methinks I'd better go read Dave Wilsons book "Black Clouds and White Feathers" again to see if he wrote about milk trains.

 

Regards

Pete

 

The main line express milks from Devon to East/ Capital generally used light Pacifics and usually had a brake coach or coaches. Ns and smaller loco's worked around Devon & Cornwall; not so sure about elsewhere so it is a great excuse to browse loads of books!!

Hope this is of help?

Sincerely, Full Fat Bloke.

[Karhedron]

Milk trains on the main line required a passenger rated brake van (usually a BG). The reason for this was that milk is perishable and so ran at express speeds so a corresponding brake vehicle was required. Older BGs were popular for this but there are other options.

 

The Ex-LMS Stove Rs were very popular for this role as they provided the necessary guard accomodation but were smaller and lighter than regular bogie BGs. After nationalisation they ended up distributed around the network and were very popular on Southern milk trains. I have seen photos of Stove Rs on milk trains passing through Wimbledon (probably on their way to Vauxhall or Kensington).

 

I am a Western fan so my knowledge of SR stock is a bit more limited. Both the vehicles you mention are passenger rated so would be feasible vehicles on a milk train. I do not know for sure if either was actually used in that role. I do know that the Stove Rs were used, it depends if you want to wait for the forthcoming specially comissioned model.

[Gilwell Park]

The afternoon Clapham Junction to Exeter milk empties also carried a passenger coach, usually a BCK, at the front so that it could become a passenger train between Salisbury & Templecombe. The coach made the whole journey but was empty except between Salisbury & Templecombe. Both pictures I have show an unidentifiable bogie vehicle at the rear of the train. NB: This may have been a Sundays only occurence.

 

Roger.

[Fat Controller]

Hi all

I'm slowly building up a small rake of milk tankers to go behind either a Q1 (C8) or a Br liveried N class and was wondering

 

A; which would be more appropriate behind the tankers, a Queen Mary bogie brake van or a Maunsell Van C?

 

B; If the loco had to run round it's train would they also change the brake van round so it's still at the rear of the train or would it be left marshalled behind the loco?

 

TIA

 

Pete

The van may have started out in one position on the train, but there were several portions added en-route (at Seaton Jct and Templecombe at least) so it would be towards the front by the time it arrived in London. As the train was fully fitted, the position of the van wasn't too important- if it was towards the front, then it just meant the guard would have farther to walk if he had to put down detonators to protect the rear of the train.

[roythebus]

In the good old steam days, a brake van would have to be at the rear of the train, except if it was a passenger train or parcels train if my memory serves me correctly. even then, there was usually a brake coach at the rear.

 

The milk trains would run to Vauxhall where it was unloaded in the up Windsor loop platform 1; there was a milk depot at Point Pleaseant just east of Putney, and another on the WLL just where the line to West Ruislip used to branch off. The site is now covered by the Westway A40 roundabout!

 

I would sometimes see a milk train from Southfields Park where we had to go for school sports. I used to spend more time train watching than playing football! The milk train was any loco available, from Spam Cans to Q1s and BR standards. the tanks were always filthy dirty and looked far from hygienic!

[Fat Controller]

In the good old steam days, a brake van would have to be at the rear of the train, except if it was a passenger train or parcels train if my memory serves me correctly. even then, there was usually a brake coach at the rear.

 

The milk trains would run to Vauxhall where it was unloaded in the up Windsor loop platform 1; there was a milk depot at Point Pleaseant just east of Putney, and another on the WLL just where the line to West Ruislip used to branch off. The site is now covered by the Westway A40 roundabout!

 

I would sometimes see a milk train from Southfields Park where we had to go for school sports. I used to spend more time train watching than playing football! The milk train was any loco available, from Spam Cans to Q1s and BR standards. the tanks were always filthy dirty and looked far from hygienic!

Milk trains were classed as 'parcels' trains, running under Class 3 reporting numbers, I believe. I agree about the external condition- the interiors were washed and steam-cleaned after every trip, but the exteriors got filthier (and smellier) as time passed. I can't say I was hugely impressed when I saw the arrangements at Vauxhall, either, with the pipes trailing across the platform- that would have been post-steam, with either a Warship or a Class 74 when I saw it.

A tip here for anyone wanting to weather new brick or stonework to match the existing- paint it with milk that is 'on the turn'. Do this last thing on a Friday afternoon, then go away for the weekend.... We did it to blend in a new gauging station in a National Park.

[Bruciethefish]

It might be worth remembering that these trains were not exclusively made up of tankers.. They frequently featured any of the various southern utility vans, specially-built milk vans (in the early days), GWR slat-sided vehicles etc.. - most of which would be carrying milk &/or cream in churns. There were also fitted flat wagons carrying road tankers, depending on the source of the traffic, as not all the dairies had direct rail access..

[Peter Bedding]

Hi all

I'm slowly building up a small rake of milk tankers to go behind either a Q1 (C8) or a Br liveried N class and was wondering

 

A; which would be more appropriate behind the tankers, a Queen Mary bogie brake van or a Maunsell Van C?

 

B; If the loco had to run round it's train would they also change the brake van round so it's still at the rear of the train or would it be left marshalled behind the loco?

 

TIA

 

Pete

 

Hello Pete

 

The following link should be useful in your quest for prototype info: http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/milk.htm

 

This subject has been aired on the forum several times in the last two/three years, so a search should also be of value.

 

The following points have emerged over time.

 

Milk tanks were rated as non-passenger coaching stock, and could be attached to the rear of passenger trains. On the Southern they started their journey from their creamery to London in twos and threes to a marshalling point (such as Templecombe), where they would be made up into a dedicated train. When empty, they could be attched to a semi-fast, from, say Templecombe to Seaton Jn, i.e A West Country hauling a Bulleid three set and then two/three tanks. As the tanks were brake fitted, there would not be any need for extra guards or brake vehicles.

 

The vehicle underframes were built and owned by the Railway Company (i.e SR, GWR, BR etc), but the actual containers remained the property of the Milk Company.

 

The vehicles (particularly in WW2) followed the demand and supply; which is to say that it would not be uncommon to find GWR-plated underframes operating in and out of a SR-based creamery (and vice versa).

 

At one time the Yeovil Town pilot engine (a K10) started its morning duty with a trip out to Chard Jn and Seaton Jn, collect the full tanks and take them as far as Templecombe, to join loads coming from the S&D. From then the train engine would have been any A class loco, ideally an S15 or WC. Hornby's Van C would be ideal for this.

 

During WW2, Exmouth Jn was allocated a Q1, which could easily have brought full tanks in from Yeoford and Crediton, to connect with loads originating on the GWR.

 

A milk tank would contain 3000 gallons, an awful lot of 17gallon churns on a daily basis. So it would have been a very large creamery to export six tanks every day. Churn traffic operated alongside the tank traffic.

 

Hth

 

PB

[3 link]

Hi Pete,

 

Not my thread but an interesting insight none the less, certainly would be a welcome addition to most GWR/SR branch line layouts.

 

Regards, Martyn.

[Fat Controller]

Churn traffic had largely disappeared from the trunk flows by the mid-1950s, judging by photos I've seen, though road collections from farms were still using them in the late 1960s. Certainly the farm we used to get our potatoes from in the late 1960s (on the Gower)installed a breeze-block and sleeper platform at the end of their track about then to tranship them from farm trailer to MMB lorry.

The tank wagon flows were quite large- I remember the one from Whitland would sometimes have twenty wagons, from four different creameries. Photos of West Country ones that I've seen are of similar size. WR ones always seemed to rate an express loco- Castles or Counties in steam days, later Warships or Westerns.

[Karhedron]

That is right, churn traffic largely ended by nationalisation (although I am sure isolated examples continued). The traffic was seasonal to an extent being heaviest at the summer. The GWR traffic did usually warrant an express loco, indeed it needed it for the perishable cargo.

 

I believe there was even working diagram worked by a King, their only regular non-passenger diagram IIRC.

[roythebus]

They used to reckon that if a Siphon G was used for milk churn traffic and it developed wheel flats, the milk would turn to butter by the time it reached London!!

[Fat Controller]

They used to reckon that if a Siphon G was used for milk churn traffic and it developed wheel flats, the milk would turn to butter by the time it reached London!!

The original SR milk tanks used a 12' two-axle underframe with 'shoe' suspension- their butter making qualities were such that the tanks were remounted on the more familiar three-axle underframe, whilst the old underframes were given wooden bodies and used for loco coal.

[mikesndbs]

Hi, what a great but rather old topic :) Could I just ask for some information on the 4 wheel milk tanks we probably all know from the Hornby/Triang range?

I know there certainly were some real ones but where do they fit in date wise please?

[Nearholmer]

Early 1930s to cWW2.

 

Useful thread here, with some nice pictures of GWR ones when brand new