Hornby & Ratio 4 wheeler mods

[bertiedog]

Now what this not is an analysis of what the coach is or not, it is a moulding of a small 3 compartment generic Victorian coach, and leave it at that.

 

But the main complaints of height and the goods chassis need addressing, and the drawing shows the 2-3mm removed, with lowered buffers, removed coupling mounting boxes, new end supports for the foot boards.

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Now I assume a gas tank is missing, but what else must be removed or changed, as the Axle boxes and springs are acceptable. Presumably vac cylinders should be connected to the brake rodding, but is there anything else?

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by bertiedog

[Flyingscotsmanfan]

To me the arc of the roof looks to big on these coaches, they need to be flatter more akin to the clerestories. 

[Edwardian]

To me the arc of the roof looks to big on these coaches, they need to be flatter more akin to the clerestories. 

 

An arc roof would, I think, suit these better than an elliptical profile, But I agree that a shallower arc might suit these coaches.

[bertiedog]

Altering the roof, is a step too far for this light railway use, of more interest is converting one to a brake end, with ducket windows, as per shot. Hornby do not seem to have ever had a brake version. It should have double doors of course, maybe the window panel can be converted to a door. The other issue is the awful moulded windows, not sure if the bodywork is thin enough to take glazing as a sheet.

Any answers as to what to add to the underframe?

 

Stephen

[bertiedog]

It looks, with the first taken apart, to be able to reduce the body height by about 4mm overall, which really improves the appearance, retaining the normal diameter wheels etc and putting the buffer beams at each end lower to get the buffers 14mm above the track.

The glazing is a bit of a joke, the bad moulding has rippled the plastic and ruined any clarity through them, and the bodies are a bit thick to take the glazing flat.

The chassis is sound and can take metal bearings, and some scale wheels, wood centre type. handles and grab rails can be added to the shell, and pipes etc to the ends. There are two to work on, with another coming from Ebay to make a rake of three coaches.

The only other plastic kits are the Ratio four wheelers, but I would like a couple of six wheeled coaches as well, and will have to look at etched kits for the LBSCR made by Roxey Mouldings...

Stephen

Edited May 13, 2017 by bertiedog

[Edwardian]

It looks, with the first taken apart, to be able to reduce the body height by about 4mm overall, which really improves the appearance, retaining the normal diameter wheels etc and putting the buffer beams at each end lower to get the buffers 14mm above the track.

The glazing is a bit of a joke, the bad moulding has rippled the plastic and ruined any clarity through them, and the bodies are a bit thick to take the glazing flat.

The chassis is sound and can take metal bearings, and some scale wheels, wood centre type. handles and grab rails can be added to the shell, and pipes etc to the ends. There are two to work on, with another coming from Ebay to make a rake of three coaches.

The only other plastic kits are the Ratio four wheelers, but I would like a couple of six wheeled coaches as well, and will have to look at etched kits.

Stephen

 

Why not cut Tri-angs down to 6 wheelers?

 

I have cut them down to both 4 and 6 wheelers.

 

Or modify or extend a Ratio 4 wheeler to a 6-wheeler or cut down a Ratio Midland bogie suburban?

Edited May 13, 2017 by Edwardian

[Guy Rixon]

The brake rodding on the chassis makes no sense unless there are handbrake levers. As moulded, it seems to be derived from the LNER vacuum-brake arrangement, where there was a lever on each side. I suggest scrapping the moulded brakes and adding a single pair of V-hangers with a centre crank on the brake shaft.

 

There should be steps on the coach end, so that the railwaymen can tend to the gas lamps. A gas-lit coach would need a lighting-control bar on the end opposite the steps, and pipes running up the end to the roof. Alternatively, you could remove the moulded gas lamps and fit oil-lamp tops.

 

If the coach is to represent a vehicle running after 1889, you'll need brake connections, vacuum or air.

[bertiedog]

Not getting too involved with the mass production, it is just to produce some slightly tired looking light railway stock that has seen better days. The platform will barely take three four wheelers, or two 6 wheelers plus a small loco, and I expect there was only one rake in use on any day, plus spares.

Is the Coach chassis from a Tri-ang brake van?

[bertiedog]

I had the steps in mind, and changing the two rows of vents to pan top vents to look a bit different. But if the two rows of vent are meant to be for gas I will leave them. It can add the gas pipes easily along with the taps etc, and planned of course to do the pipes on the buffer beams. I assume it will need a round gas tank added under the floor, with pipes etc, and the brake cylinder (or cylinders?).

I do think the footboard needs widening, and perhaps should there be an upper footboard as well?.

[Edwardian]

I had the steps in mind, and changing the two rows of vents to pan top vents to look a bit different. But if the two rows of vent are meant to be for gas I will leave them. It can add the gas pipes easily along with the taps etc, and planned of course to do the pipes on the buffer beams. I assume it will need a round gas tank added under the floor, with pipes etc, and the brake cylinder (or cylinders?).

I do think the footboard needs widening, and perhaps should there be an upper footboard as well?.

 

You need a gas cylinder unless you stick with oil.  For vacuum braked stock you need a cylinder and can add a suggestion of the brake gear.  

 

Gas cylinders come in the Ratio kits.  I made mine out of those from the Tri-ang clerestories.  Nile of this parish used 6mm plastic tube.

 

If you scroll to the fourth picture in post 259, you will see Nile's gas cylinder and vacuum brake arrangement: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/82968-niles-mostly-freelance-bodging-bench-a-static-loco/page-11

 

I don't recall what misbegotten blobs are moulded onto the roofs of these coaches, but I suggest you don't need ventilators, just 3 gas light or oil light fittings, central to each compartment and on the centre line of the coach.

 

EDIT:  And, yes, really there should be an upper foot board, as in your Post #4 picture.

 

There is a strip, about 1mm deep, above the eaves panels.  That could usefully go, reducing height and improving appearance.

Edited May 13, 2017 by Edwardian

[Talltim]

I get the impression you don't want to stretch them, but FWIW http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=42962#p652836

[Guy Rixon]

I had the steps in mind, and changing the two rows of vents to pan top vents to look a bit different. But if the two rows of vent are meant to be for gas I will leave them. It can add the gas pipes easily along with the taps etc, and planned of course to do the pipes on the buffer beams. I assume it will need a round gas tank added under the floor, with pipes etc, and the brake cylinder (or cylinders?).

I do think the footboard needs widening, and perhaps should there be an upper footboard as well?.

 

 

Not sure what you mean by "two rows of vents". Did you mean the roof-mounted ventilators (e.g. Laycock a.k.a. "torpedo" style)? They weren't specific to gas-lit coaches, oil-lit and electrically-lit coaches had them too. If the Hornby moulding doesn't have roof vents (can't see any in your photos) they're easy to add.

 

+1 for upper footboards, specially on a light railway where platforms might be a bit low. BoT would probably insist.

 

If you want to try a guard's compartment, prints of side lookouts are available on Shapeways.

[Compound2632]

If I wanted to get to where you want to get - archaic carriages for an impoverished light railway - I wouldn't start from here. I accept that these little monstrosities can be picked up very cheaply - £3 - £4 - but that's for a reason...

 

I'd be tempted to go for something like the North Staffs 4-wheelers - bodies available as a 3D print to fit a GWR brake van underframe. Another possibility might be the imported Bachmann Thomas coaches which have found favour in LBSC quarters.

[PhilJ W]

Not getting too involved with the mass production, it is just to produce some slightly tired looking light railway stock that has seen better days. The platform will barely take three four wheelers, or two 6 wheelers plus a small loco, and I expect there was only one rake in use on any day, plus spares.

Is the Coach chassis from a Tri-ang brake van?

The chassis is from the old Triang-Hornby LMS brake van. I converted one to a luggage van many years ago. I simply cut the body into three parts using the door shut lines, window+door, w+w+d and w+w+d+w, turned the centre section round to make it w+d+d+w+w+w+w+d+w. As I only wanted windows in the guards door and one of the double doors I refitted the remaining windows and painted over them giving the appearance of blank panels. There was only one join to fill and if you wishyou could conceal it with a ducket.

[bertiedog]

The ventilators on the roof in the shot are pairs alternating ib position down the coach roof.

The ends have very shallow moulded steps on them.

The roofs may have changed over the years as to ventilators.

[bertiedog]

Did the early versions have a different roof?

Definitely needs the upper foot board to match the lower size but a fraction swallower;

The other missing parts of course are the proper seats and compartment walls.

[bertiedog]

Reduced height care of photoshop, and top foot board added to bottom of the solebar edge

[Edwardian]

s-l1600.jpg

The ventilators on the roof in the shot are pairs alternating ib position down the coach roof.

The ends have very shallow moulded steps on them.

The roofs may have changed over the years as to ventilators.

 

What you have here is something approximating to a Great Western-style 'top hat' gas light fitting, alternating with an amorphous blob that is possibly intended to represent a ventilator.  I would have thought a row of three gas or oil lamp fittings on the centre line would be best, but, these coaches really are crap; I don't say one couldn't make something out of them, but there are quicker and better ways requiring less effort.

[bertiedog]

Well, they are cheap, and here!, and there are no other RTR small coaches and the etched kits are £40 each or more, and scratchbuilding even the simplest panelling on coaches takes ages.

 

These will be in use in a weeks time, fully painted, new wheels and bearings, and maybe ballraced bearings, as I have just found a Chines Ebay supplier of really tiny bearings that the pin point axles can ride in. The hole required is about .75mm larger than brass cup bearings. The wheels, Gibson, add to the cost, but are old stock recovered from other projects. They have nickel tyres added all ready, and can take pickups for lighting, powered by a super capacitor circuit, to store about 20 minutes of power after charging. It only has three LEDs so there is a very small drain on the capacitor. The LEDs are surface mount bright Yellow, and give a warm gaslight look.

 

No problem for the gas tank, the workshop is full of brass and plastic oddcuts that can be finished in the lathe, the same for the vac cylinder.

 

The hangers for the brakes underneath the floor are all wrong, and can be sawn out easily, and replacements fitted in board of the brake shoe line.

 

Careful purchase on Ebay averages about £4 each coach, and in good condition. I am certainly not paying the £20 odd quid at full retail.

I am willing to fit the duckets, I cut out the parts earlier tonight in plasticard, and they are ready to fit, once the nearby window panel is altered to a door pattern to provide dual doors.  The whole thing needs sanding to the exact profile of the side before fitting in place

 

The Clerestory roof Hornby coaches mentioned seem to command premium prices on Ebay, too much to be sawing them up. I will try to find some not too play worn, but cheaper to experiment with. I have some Ratio four wheelers to build next week for other stock.

 

 A petrol railcar from Worsley may be added as well, for the light railway line.

Edited May 13, 2017 by bertiedog

[Edwardian]

Well, they are cheap, and here!, and there are no other RTR small coaches and the etched kits are £40 each or more, and scratchbuilding even the simplest panelling on coaches takes ages.

 

These will be in use in a weeks time, fully painted, new wheels and bearings, and maybe ballraced bearings, as I have just found a Chines Ebay supplier of really tiny bearings that the pin point axles can ride in. The hole required is about .75mm larger than brass cup bearings. The wheels, Gibson, add to the cost, but are old stock recovered from other projects. They have nickel tyres added all ready, and can take pickups for lighting, powered by a super capacitor circuit, to store about 20 minutes of power after charging. It only has three LEDs so there is a very small drain on the capacitor. The LEDs are surface mount bright Yellow, and give a warm gaslight look.

 

No problem for the gas tank, the workshop is full of brass and plastic oddcuts that can be finished in the lathe, the same for the vac cylinder.

 

The hangers for the brakes underneath the floor are all wrong, and can be sawn out easily, and replacements fitted in board of the brake shoe line.

 

Careful purchase on Ebay averages about £4 each coach, and in good condition. I am certainly not paying the £20 odd quid at full retail.

I am willing to fit the duckets, I cut out the parts earlier tonight in plasticard, and they are ready to fit, once the nearby window panel is altered to a door pattern to provide dual doors.  The whole thing needs sanding to the exact profile of the side before fitting in place

 

The Clerestory roof Hornby coaches mentioned seem to command premium prices on Ebay, too much to be sawing them up. I will try to find some not too play worn, but cheaper to experiment with. I have some Ratio four wheelers to build next week for other stock.

 

 A petrol railcar from Worsley may be added as well, for the light railway line.

 

Good luck with it. There are certainly some fixes to the chassis that would go a long way to making it a 'proper' coach. 

 

Keep in mind the Tri-angs for the 6-wheelers at least.  You should never need to pay more than a tenner for one second hand.  I never have or will.  Again, like spotting the 4-wheelers, some patience may be required on Ebay as many sellers try to take the michael.  In terms of most companies' compartment width (Midland noticeably more generous), the brake coach equates the Third Class.  The non-brake coach has wider compartments, equating the Great Western Second Class compartments, but these could be your Firsts.  I have used them as All Seconds and as First/Second Composites, with sections filleted in to extend the First Class Compartments.

[KeithHC]

There is also another option. Have you looked at Smallbrook Studio nice range of ex LBSCR 4 wheelers.

[BernardTPM]

The underframe is the current version of the plastic chassis that was first used in the 1960s (the first brake van to use it was the old Tri-ang GWR type, but a BR style brake van followed soon after) so suffers from the 'Tri-ang raised buffer height'. The same brake gear appeared on the non-brakevan version too. It does seem to be inspired by the LNER fitted underframe pattern, so removing one of the cross pieces one side would make sense of it.

On the coach bodies themselves, there's a strange recessed section 1mm high above the top panel layer, immediately under the roof, about 1mm high that has no real detail or, seemingly, purpose.

One fairly simple way to create double doors is to add parts of two bodies together like this:

 

The window to the left open for the guard or filled or painted as a panel like the original one next to it. Note how the ducket covers the door plus narrow panel.

Edited July 1, 2017 by BernardTPM

[BG John]

There are 8 bodies on eBay at the moment if you can't stand the rest of the model!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Hornby-New-4-Wheel-Coach-Bodies-X-8-/322508621049

[bertiedog]

The coaches condition when in use need not be perfect, most Col Stephens equipment was in a bit of disrepair and lack of cosmetic paintwork for most of the life of the stock, even new items like the petrol railcars seems to descend quickly in maintenance to a steady look of lack of care. This applied to other parts of the Stephens transport empire, his buses in Tonbridge were not well looked after, my Grandfather serviced them for him, until it came to paying the bills, which he never settled! Stephen's had a house nearby to Grandfather transport business, and the Bordyke offices for the various railways he ran, but he was at the time better known for the bus services he ran along with charabanc hire for day trips to the South Coast from mid Kent.

 

Stephen

[Nick Holliday]

One of the problems with this coach is that there were very few three compartment coaches built.  Most that appeared were during the transition from the stagecoach designs to the more familiar panelling, and had very flat roofs.  The Triang and Great Locomotives Rocket carriages would be a better starting point.  A typical one can be seen on the cover of Lightmoor Press's Great North of Scotland Coaches http://lightmoor.co.uk/books/great-north-of-scotland-railway-carriages/L9419

All seem to have been built before 1860, by which time underframes had already become longer, and at 24 to 28 feet long could take 4 first class or five (or more!) third class compartments. Some of the old stock, however, did manage to hang on until the twentieh century.

The other problem is the overall profile is much too modern, more 1905 than 1855, and reminds me of some stock I have seen made by cutting four compartments off an old Farish suburban coach, with some lining to create the effect of panels. The only example that I can find that comes anywhere near the modernity of the Hornby thing comes from the LSWR.  Some 1859 three compartment firsts were rebuilt with higher roofs which matched the 1879 stock being introduced, and might even have formed the inspiration for Hornby, as a photo of them shows two lines of fittings on the roof.