Hornby & Ratio 4 wheeler mods

[PhilJ W]

For light railway rolling stock 'Carriage Stock of Minor Standard Gauge Railways'  by Kidner (Oakwood Press) is a good guide, if you can lay your hands on a copy. Another possible 'kitbash' is the two bogie coaches built by the Bristol C&W for the Oxford and Aylesbury Railway in 1895. The bogie centre measurement and the bogies are identical to the Ratio bogie bolster. The coaches had flat matchboard sides and were accessed from end platforms and was only two feet longer than the bogie bolster wagon.

[Edwardian]

I was silently following with a plan to dig out to take comparison pictures of the "H0" carriages. However you seem to have dragged me in!!

 

I did a while ago take some pictures of them with a ruler to roughly show dimensions so I have attached these below.

 

2016-12-11 21.01.21.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.01.38.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.02.17.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.02.53.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.03.15.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.05.30.jpg

 

As to the price and availability of these I ordered them from Tower Models in the USA, as I wasn't in a rush for them at the time. However they cost less that £18 each including postage and arrived at my doorstep in less than a week!!!

 

Gary

 

Gary, I wonder if your supplier is defunct: https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=towermodels&e=com

[Edwardian]

For light railway rolling stock 'Carriage Stock of Minor Standard Gauge Railways'  by Kidner (Oakwood Press) is a good guide, if you can lay your hands on a copy. Another possible 'kitbash' is the two bogie coaches built by the Bristol C&W for the Oxford and Aylesbury Railway in 1895. The bogie centre measurement and the bogies are identical to the Ratio bogie bolster. The coaches had flat matchboard sides and were accessed from end platforms and was only two feet longer than the bogie bolster wagon.

 

Phil, a great suggestion.

 

I note from Kidner that the Oxford & Aylesbury had an 8-wheel composite and an 8-wheel third from Bristol C&W in 1895, as you say.  They were sold off in 1900, which would suit my own requirements beautifully (apologies for the slight hi-jack). 

 

Is this one of them pictured below?

 

I am wondering how you know the dimensions of these vehicles?

[PhilJ W]

Phil, a great suggestion.

 

I note from Kidner that the Oxford & Aylesbury had an 8-wheel composite and an 8-wheel third from Bristol C&W in 1895, as you say.  They were sold off in 1900, which would suit my own requirements beautifully (apologies for the slight hi-jack). 

 

Is this one of them pictured below?

 

I am wondering how you know the dimensions of these vehicles?

That is indeed one of them. There is a 00 scale drawing of one of these coaches in 'The Brill Branch' by Bill Simpson (ISBN 0860932184). The only differences between the two coaches were internal, the composite had thin upholstery on the longitudinal wooden seats.

[BlueLightning]

Gary, I wonder if your supplier is defunct: https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=towermodels&e=com

 

It could be that or it could be that I'm a complete berk and they are actually called Tower Hobbies!! http://www.towerhobbies.com/

 

Gary

[PhilJ W]

To add to the above. The profile of the coaches is very similar to the standard BR brake van, the width is identical. I was planning to build one based on this using the inner ends from the Airfix/Dapol brake van. The end platforms of these coaches were two feet wide so I intended to cut 4mm off the ends of the solebars of the bogie bolster kit and replace them with an 8mm dummy extention inside the existing solebar to make way for the steps.

[Edwardian]

To add to the above. The profile of the coaches is very similar to the standard BR brake van, the width is identical. I was planning to build one based on this using the inner ends from the Airfix/Dapol brake van. The end platforms of these coaches were two feet wide so I intended to cut 4mm off the ends of the solebars of the bogie bolster kit and replace them with an 8mm dummy extention inside the existing solebar to make way for the steps.

 

 

You have a PM!

[twiggyforest2]

Well, they are cheap, and here!, and there are no other RTR small coaches and the etched kits are £40 each or more, and scratchbuilding even the simplest panelling on coaches takes ages.

 

These will be in use in a weeks time, fully painted, new wheels and bearings, and maybe ballraced bearings, as I have just found a Chines Ebay supplier of really tiny bearings that the pin point axles can ride in. The hole required is about .75mm larger than brass cup bearings. The wheels, Gibson, add to the cost, but are old stock recovered from other projects. They have nickel tyres added all ready, and can take pickups for lighting, powered by a super capacitor circuit, to store about 20 minutes of power after charging. It only has three LEDs so there is a very small drain on the capacitor. The LEDs are surface mount bright Yellow, and give a warm gaslight look.

 

No problem for the gas tank, the workshop is full of brass and plastic oddcuts that can be finished in the lathe, the same for the vac cylinder.

 

The hangers for the brakes underneath the floor are all wrong, and can be sawn out easily, and replacements fitted in board of the brake shoe line.

 

Careful purchase on Ebay averages about £4 each coach, and in good condition. I am certainly not paying the £20 odd quid at full retail.

I am willing to fit the duckets, I cut out the parts earlier tonight in plasticard, and they are ready to fit, once the nearby window panel is altered to a door pattern to provide dual doors.  The whole thing needs sanding to the exact profile of the side before fitting in place

 

The Clerestory roof Hornby coaches mentioned seem to command premium prices on Ebay, too much to be sawing them up. I will try to find some not too play worn, but cheaper to experiment with. I have some Ratio four wheelers to build next week for other stock.

 

 A petrol railcar from Worsley may be added as well, for the light railway line.

Hi Bertie

I am very intrested in your comment re ballrace bearings for the axleboxs, do you have a link regarding the supplier of same

Regards

John

[bertiedog]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361956912187?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Should find a seller of the 1mmx3mmx1mm miniature sized ball races.   3mm dia overall 1mm hole and 1mm thick, If the axle box inner face can be drilled 3mm, they drop in the hole and the pinpoint rides in the 1mm centre hole, about half way up the taper.

To determine the depth, put two on a pinpoint axle and measure the overall length, and gauge it against the distance the axleboxes are apart. Allow a bit of play, and the axle pin point will hold them in the holes, or add a tiny drop of loctite during assembly.

If you find the 3mm hole cannot be drilled deep enough into the back of the axle box, then simply shorten the axle, in a lathe, or power drill with a file. This will set the bearings closer to each other and less recessed into the back of the axle boxes.

There are tinier sizes made but much more costly than these from China.

Stephen.

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[BernardTPM]

I was silently following with a plan to dig out to take comparison pictures of the "H0" carriages. However you seem to have dragged me in!!

I did a while ago take some pictures of them with a ruler to roughly show dimensions so I have attached these below.

 

2016-12-11 21.01.21.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.01.38.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.02.17.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.02.53.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.03.15.jpg

 

2016-12-11 21.05.30.jpg

 

As to the price and availability of these I ordered them from Tower Hobbies in the USA, as I wasn't in a rush for them at the time. However they cost less that £18 each including postage and arrived at my doorstep in less than a week!!!

Gary

Going by those pcitures the coaches are 4mm rather than 3.5mm scale, though definitely Victorian 1870s/80s.

Some of the Thomas 'H0' range was simpy the Palitoy Mainline derived models repainted.

[Skinnylinny]

But like much Triang, the body really isn't at all bad.

 

The four-wheel coaches aren't Triang, they're from the late 70s nadir of Hornby.

 

Edit: I note that among its many liveries, it has appeared in MSLR brown - not sure whether that's supposed to be Mid-Suffolk Light or Manchester Sheffield & Lincolnshire but it must have a claim to be the only RTR model for either railway!

I believe it was produced for a train set, along with a Southern Class D 0-4-0 tank and a Southern box van, both painted in MSLR livery! Incidentally, I believe the set is meant to represent the Mid-Suffolk Light Railway, which painted its locomotives brown, as opposed to the "bilious green" of the Manchester, Sheffield and Lincolnshire.

[bertiedog]

the front Coach looks like "brake van" short wheel based coach, and the rear a Wishbeech type coach as per the Bachmann model. Can't enhance any more detail from the shot. The  wheel base of the four wheeler looks very short indeed.

I will try to budget for some of the Red Coach Bachmann coaches, overall they are the best proportioned and correct to the vintage. They can be detailed quite a bit with handles grab rails, brackets, plus the footboards and underside details, plus the interiors, and a few passengers.....

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

What about the combination of the Tri-ang body, new roof, and an Airfix/Dapol brake van chassis......sort of Frankenstein but might work..

[Edwardian]

What about the combination of the Tri-ang body, new roof, and an Airfix/Dapol brake van chassis......sort of Frankenstein but might work..

 

Yes, this was my suggestion on the sister topic:

[bertiedog]

Without streching the body, the combination does not look bad, when the Airfix is shortened to match the body it has better proportions than the Tri-ang Hornby underframe. A new shallower arc roof could be fitted, and I have six bodies coming, son a daopl order will be done.

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

In comparison.

You automatically get the right buffer height, and the buffer beams are under the ends not flush, giving closer coulpling as well. The shorter wheelbase looks much better for the length.

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

Or two bodies, two Airfix/Dapol chassis and a new longer roof.....a decent four compartment Victorian / Edwardian 6 wheeler..........

Stephen

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[BG John]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361956912187?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Should find a seller of the 1mmx3mmx1mm miniature sized ball races.   3mm dia overall 1mm hole and 1mm thick, If the axle box inner face can be drilled 3mm, they drop in the hole and the pinpoint rides in the 1mm centre hole, about half way up the taper........

As they're unshielded, are they likely to pick up dirt, and not work so well after a while? I can't imagine that fitting shields would be practical or affordable in that size though.

 

I bought some 2mm bore shielded bearings to use as internal bearings on rolling stock, but of course I haven't tried them yet!

[bertiedog]

Cost of the six wheelers would be about £14.00 plus wheelsets, 2x Dapol, 2x Hornby, 1 roof, plus plasticard for interior seats and walls. Glazing would be sheet as no roof mouldings with bodies.

Stephen

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[BG John]

I wish there was an O gauge equivalent of the Hornby 4 wheelers. I could use a few until I can scratchbuild what I need!

[bertiedog]

On the bearings I doubt is dirt would get in there, and simply cured with a fibre washer added to the axle pinpoint to rest on the face of the ball races, with a dab of grease. Sealed bearings of this size are wildly more expensive than 10 for just over a pound! They do not cost much more than brass cup bearings.

On the six wheeler. I expect you would have to expand the width of the Airfix parts as much as possible, to get the clearances for the side movement of the centre axle, which would have to be mounted on a stub ended axle to slide in the ball races. Curves would be a bit limited, but no problem on the new small light railway layout.

[bertiedog]

Or with Guards section and Ducket lookout

 

Stephen

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[Edwardian]

Cost of the six wheelers would be about £14.00 plus wheelsets, 2x Dapol, 2x Hornby, 1 roof, plus plasticard for interior seats and walls. Glazing would be sheet as no roof mouldings with bodies.

Stephen

 

As opposed to: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ratio-612-GWR-4-Wheel-Composite-Coach-Plastic-Kit-OO-Gauge-/311864594294?hash=item489c940f76:g:dgkAAOSwhvFZDbM2 - and I've never had to pay anything close to this for a Ratio 4-wheeler, on Ebay or otherwise.

 

As easy to make 6-wheelers this way as with Dapol brake vans, I would have thought.

 

The Ratio sides, roof and ends can be used without major surgery.  The chassis is a coach chassis with all the necessary features.  I'd say easier and better.

 

Further, the really nasty thing about these 4-wheel Hornby coaches is the way there is thin beading separating what should be raised mouldings and recessed panels.  That is most unprototypical and looks wrong as a consequence.  What got me to thinking that a conversion could produce a decent model was this guy, who seems to have filled in the areas between the raised beading to make prototypical moulding: http://forum.mtimag.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=1953&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15. (the yellow coaches) 

 

If you do this, i.e. create the raised moulding, trim off the unnecessary strip above the eaves panels to lower sides, lower the profile of the roof arc and replace the roof using better roof furniture (e.g. gas lamp tops from the Ratio Midland Suburbans), you are on your way to a decent body.

 

The yellow examples not only have lowered chassis, but have the eaves strip pared away to lower the sides.  Crucially, he appears to have, somehow, filled in the moulding. I would think micro-strip, with filler for the corners, might work.  Again, though, why this would be worthwhile when Tri-ang bodies and Ratio sides are available with prototypical mouldings is unclear to me!

Edited May 15, 2017 by Edwardian

[bertiedog]

The drawing assumes a new roof with the top edge of the side covered and lowered compared to the original, removing the offending extra strip Tri-ang Hornby fitted to the sides

The Ratio sides I do not have, and are a bit more cost than six coach bodies for a £5. I will keep your much appreciated suggestions in mind, there are two complete Ratio coming at the moment from Ebay as well, but will be as standard build. It is all to provide a variety of passenger stock as used on light railways, and to keep costs as low as possible. Te image above does ot look too bad and not too expensive for two or even three. More likely two and a Horsebox used for goods, milk, and parcels.

 

Stephen.

Edited May 15, 2017 by bertiedog

[bertiedog]

I don't think there are may other variations using the Triang Hornby body apart from a two compartment inspection saloon, with the fulll Airfix chassis to provide end verandas..........