Early Great Western wagon: identified as conversion from broad gauge

[Compound2632]

Great Western experts - having tweaked you re. corridor carriages, are you willing or able to tell me anything about the wagon (No. 25637 I think) front left in this photo, taken in Huntley & Palmers biscuit factory, Reading, c. 1900.

 

Springs inside the W-irons, W-iron slightly behind the outside face of the solebars - iron frame? Self-contained buffers? - this and the non-full-width headstocks, suggests conversion from dumb buffers?

 

EDIT: @Chrisbr, who has examined the GW wagon registers at the NRM, conforms that this is a conversion from a broad gauge wagon:

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by Compound2632

[BG John]

I'd like to know too. It seems that there's plenty of information on very early broad gauge wagons, then all the records are lost until the diagram books started in the early 1900s. I've read an occasional knowledgable comment on wagons from the lost period, but have no idea of the source of the information, or if there was one. I'd love to be proved wrong!

[brianusa]

Apart from the wagons, what an interesting picture. Three way point, wagon turntable and a weighbridge all in the same photo as well as the shunting horses and all the other railway ephemera long gone.

 

Brian.

[Compound2632]

Apart from the wagons, what an interesting picture. Three way point, wagon turntable and a weighbridge all in the same photo as well as the shunting horses and all the other railway ephemera long gone.

 

Brian.

 

 Indeed, there was a thread a while back which focused on the wagon traverser (front left) that led to someone building a demo example! And I've distracted Mikkel by linking to it elsewhere today...

[wagonman]

Is there are certainty that this wagon is actually GWR? There are no discernible markings on any visible wagon (most are end-on) but there are clearly other non-GWR wagons in the sidings including what looks like an LSWR design stage centre and possibly one of H&P's own Birmingham built wagons on the right. On the left two down from our mystery wagon is what could be an SER wagon with high round ends, or just possibly a GWR tilt wagon.

 

The construction of the mystery wagon would seem to be a wooden solebar with an iron flitch plate attached, and the legs of the W-iron sandwiched between – like the attached photo of a standard gauge iron bodied tilt wagon.

 

I too wish we knew more about these earlier GW wagons...

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by wagonman

[MarcD]

I do like an odd ball wagon if any more information on the photo is available I would interested

Marc

[BG John]

The construction of the mystery wagon would seem to be a wooden solebar with an iron flitch plate attached, and the legs of the W-iron sandwiched between – like the attached photo of a standard gauge iron bodied tilt wagon.

 

I too wish we knew more about these earlier GW wagons...

 

GW tilt RMWeb.jpg

Would it have been built as narrow (standard) gauge, or is it ex broad gauge? Unfortunately the Broad Gauge Society Data Sheets only list each BG wagon number, and the conversion or withdrawal date, and not the new number after conversion to narrow gauge.

 

It seems that the conversion was done by taking out a bit of the centre of the body, so the ends were no longer a smooth curve, and had plating over the join, but I can't see it on that photo.

[BG John]

Does anyone know anything about the wagon in the centre of this picture?

 

http://cornishmemory.com/item/WAT_03_036

[Compound2632]

Is there are certainty that this wagon is actually GWR? There are no discernible markings on any visible wagon (most are end-on) but there are clearly other non-GWR wagons in the sidings including what looks like an LSWR design stage centre and possibly one of H&P's own Birmingham built wagons on the right. On the left two down from our mystery wagon is what could be an SER wagon with high round ends, or just possibly a GWR tilt wagon.

 

The construction of the mystery wagon would seem to be a wooden solebar with an iron flitch plate attached, and the legs of the W-iron sandwiched between – like the attached photo of a standard gauge iron bodied tilt wagon.

 

I too wish we knew more about these earlier GW wagons...

 

GW tilt RMWeb.jpg

 

Thanks - the construction of the solebars of the iron tilt wagon do look the same as the wagon in the H&P photo though the axleguards are of quite different shape. I think one can read G.W.R quite clearly on the RH end of the H&P photo wagon, along with To Carry... in typical GW cursive signwriter's script above the running number. The iron tilt wagon has conventional full-width solebars and tapered buffer housings - though I note that the wagons to either side of it have what look like self-contained buffers. Is this photo cropped? Is there any more of these other wagons to be seen?

 

My identification of the other wagons in the H&P photo:

On the left, behind the mystery GWR wagon, an iron or steel framed four-plank wagon with centre door. This might also be a more modern (for 1900) GW wagon? I think it is unlikely to be one of H&P's Birmingham Wagon Co wagons as I believe these would have been exclusively for bringing coal from colliery to factory and this is clearly a line of sheeted merchandise wagons. Behind this, a SER wagon of the type that became SR Diagram 1327. (My knowledge of SER wagons s entirely from the SERKits catalogue!) The sheeted wagon behind that defies identification, except that it has curved raised ends.

 

The next line of wagons is a pair of push-along iron coal tubs, one full, one empty, on the factory's narrow gage tramway. I think these have double-flanged wheels so they can run off the tram tracks, for instance to cross the traverser tracks in the foreground. (The traverser itself has the same type of wheels.)

 

On the next standard-gauge line, a wooden-framed four-plank open wagon with high rounded ends, and a GW iron mink behind. I doubt that the wagon is a coal wagon, on the grounds of the three rings across the second end-plank up - these I take to be for securing sheet ties, suggesting a merchandise wagon. If that's correct, it's likely to be a railway-owned wagon not a private-owner, but which line?

 

In the distance behind these, a pair of iron minks - the LH one looks to have G.W.R in the bottom of the RH panel. Behind these, a LSWER 10T van - possibly the newest wagon in the picture? To the right of these, end on, a Midland Railway van. From its slightly squat end profile, I think it is probably one of the D353 14'11" long wagons built in the 1880s, which were just under 10' from rail to top of roof; all the D362 16'6" long vans were 13" higher and the D357 14'11" vans of the same height didn't start being built until 1903.

 

Finally, the horse-drawn wagon is a SER coal wagon, later SR Diagram 1328, as I discussed in a previous post.

 

The majority of the wagons in this photo are red - undoubtedly all the SER ones and, I think we can now be confident, the GWR ones. The LSWR van is presumably chocolate brown, leaving the Midland van as the only definitely grey wagon in the picture.

[garethashenden]

Is there are certainty that this wagon is actually GWR? There are no discernible markings on any visible wagon (most are end-on) but there are clearly other non-GWR wagons in the sidings including what looks like an LSWR design stage centre and possibly one of H&P's own Birmingham built wagons on the right. On the left two down from our mystery wagon is what could be an SER wagon with high round ends, or just possibly a GWR tilt wagon.

 

The construction of the mystery wagon would seem to be a wooden solebar with an iron flitch plate attached, and the legs of the W-iron sandwiched between – like the attached photo of a standard gauge iron bodied tilt wagon.

 

I too wish we knew more about these earlier GW wagons...

 

GW tilt RMWeb.jpg

There's a link at the bottom of the page to a larger version of the picture. Here:http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_fullsizeprint_fr.htm&_IXFIRST_=5&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=sidings&tc2=e&s=8FJJs3ER9Sj

 

From that I can clearly see that the wagon on the left with springs behind the w-irons says G.W.R on the right hand side. The R is kinda under the sheet, but it's definitely a GWR wagon. The wagon next to it is a four plank, and since it has lever brakes it is undiagrammed. By comparing the heights it seems reasonable to think that the wagon in question is a 3 plank and probably a converted convertible.

[wagonman]

There's a link at the bottom of the page to a larger version of the picture. Here:http://www.huntleyandpalmers.org.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?a=query&p=huntley&f=generic_fullsizeprint_fr.htm&_IXFIRST_=5&_IXMAXHITS_=1&m=quick_sform&tc1=i&partner=huntley&text=sidings&tc2=e&s=8FJJs3ER9Sj

 

From that I can clearly see that the wagon on the left with springs behind the w-irons says G.W.R on the right hand side. The R is kinda under the sheet, but it's definitely a GWR wagon. The wagon next to it is a four plank, and since it has lever brakes it is undiagrammed. By comparing the heights it seems reasonable to think that the wagon in question is a 3 plank and probably a converted convertible.

 

 

That photo is a great improvement – we even have a number 256*7 for next time someone has a chance to look at the wagon registers – though I would say the wagon was a two-planker, not three, and dates from the late 1870s perhaps. Sticking my neck out a bit there!

[wagonman]

Thanks - the construction of the solebars of the iron tilt wagon do look the same as the wagon in the H&P photo though the axleguards are of quite different shape. I think one can read G.W.R quite clearly on the RH end of the H&P photo wagon, along with To Carry... in typical GW cursive signwriter's script above the running number. The iron tilt wagon has conventional full-width solebars and tapered buffer housings - though I note that the wagons to either side of it have what look like self-contained buffers. Is this photo cropped? Is there any more of these other wagons to be seen?

 

 

 

There is more to be seen either side of the tilt, though to the left most of the wagon is obscured by the crane which was the reason for taking the photo. Anyway, here is all the rest of the right hand side of the original – fading off rather, and less and less sharp...

 

Interesting in that it is a 5-plank mineral wagon with an end door and through top plank. Similar wagons were bought from the Bute Works Co but I don't think this is one of them.

Edited May 21, 2017 by wagonman

[Compound2632]

There is more to be seen either side of the tilt, though to the left most of the wagon is obscured by the crane which was the reason for taking the photo. Anyway, here is all the rest of the right hand side of the original – fading off rather, and less and less sharp...

 

Interesting in that it is a 5-plank mineral wagon with an end door and through top plank. Similar wagons were bought from the Bute Works Co but I don't think this is one of them.

 

Fascinating. The wagon on the far right looks as if it might have the same axleguards as the H&P photo wagon; also self-contained buffers which suggests conversion from dumb buffers but full-width headstocks - otherwise it's very like the H&P wagon.

 

The five plank side-and-end door wagon is a real dog's breakfast. One pair of self-contained buffers - I've seen photos of wagons economically converted from dumb buffers this way before but can't recall if there's a preference or reason for sprung buffers at the end door end. At first I thought the wheelbase was asymmetric but I think that's just due to the image being distorted - I presume this is the edge of the glass plate. The length of solebar protruding to make the dumb buffer adds to the illusion. Not the cross-diagonal bracing inside, as signposted by the X-shaped bolt pattern on the side sheets. Wooden brakeblocks of course.

 

Any date for this photo? The crane is presumably a hand-operated one, looking far too weedy to be one of the Cowans Sheldon 15T steam cranes of 1900.

[Guy Rixon]

The wagon with rounded ends on the second standard-gauge road from the left possibly belongs to the LSWR. The LCDR had wagons with a similar end-profile, but those had a framing member across the end level with the top of the sides.

[MarcD]

The dead buffers at one end and sprung on the other does scream South Wales to me. It could be a wagon from a small absorbed company?

 

Marc

[BG John]

I need to know if all these interesting wagons were still running in 1905!

[Compound2632]

I need to know if all these interesting wagons were still running in 1905!

 

As far as the H&P photos go, the ones I've linked to are stated to be c. 1900 by the Huntley & Palmer collection website which I think is reasonable: they only feature the Black Hawthorne 0-4-0STs A and B, not the Peckett C and D; and all the SER wagons are as far as one can tell in SER livery not SE&CR - though it would doubtless have taken a good few years from 1899 for the Joint Management Committee's livery to be applied. I don't know much about LSWR wagons but I suspect the LSWR van may be the newest item of rolling stock visible, if they were a new design in 1899 (as suggested by the Cambrian Kits website) - but there could be a preceding similar design. I await correction...

 

So, if still in traffic in 1900, reasonable to suppose 1905 possible in the absence of any other information?

[Mikkel]

That photo is a great improvement – we even have a number 256*7 for next time someone has a chance to look at the wagon registers – though I would say the wagon was a two-planker, not three, and dates from the late 1870s perhaps. Sticking my neck out a bit there!

 

I've been looking through the Index of Wagon diagrams and numbers in Atkins, Beard & Tourret. The 2-plankers were roughly (very roughly) in the 20-23.000s and some 29.000s, but I could not find a 25637. However, there are several lots where numbers are simply referred to as "various" - presumably because there was no logical sequence to their numbering.

 

The arrangement of w-irons and axleboxes do not match anything I could find in chapters dealing with this.

 

PS: Small "GWR" moved from left to right hand side in 1894.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Mikkel

[BG John]

My two GWR modelling periods are a bit challenging! My EM layout is set around 1905, and I have no idea if there were many of the interesting 19th century wagons still running. The tilt and 5 plank open are obvious questions, as well as the round end one at Bodmin I posted a link to. I'd love to model them, but would they have still been around?

 

My other period is mid 1880s to 1890ish broad gauge, but I've recently converted it to mixed gauge, so need some narrow gauge wagons. That raises the question of whether wagons I find photos of were narrow gauge during this period, or were later conversions from broad gauge.

 

Chucking RTR straight out of the box on a layout is so appealing sometimes!

[wagonman]

The dead buffers at one end and sprung on the other does scream South Wales to me. It could be a wagon from a small absorbed company?

 

Marc

 

 

Indeed, the dumb one end and sprung the other was very common in South Wales for shipment coal wagons, but remember these were 95% or more Private Owners. Plus I think this photo predates the period of takeovers of minor S Wales lines.

 

 

Richard

[wagonman]

I don't know much about LSWR wagons but I suspect the LSWR van may be the newest item of rolling stock visible, if they were a new design in 1899 (as suggested by the Cambrian Kits website) - but there could be a preceding similar design. I await correction...

 

So, if still in traffic in 1900, reasonable to suppose 1905 possible in the absence of any other information?

 

 

That general design of LSWR van was built over quite a long period – from 1885 to 1912 – the early ones having wooden underframes, while many of the later ones had steel, They were given Dia 1410. That notwithstanding, that could still be the newest vehicle there.

 

 

Richard

[MarcD]

Could it be Cornish? The Cornwall Minerals Railway had some weird wagons that lived long enough to be photographed but are not included in the diagram books?

Marc

[wagonman]

Fascinating. The wagon on the far right looks as if it might have the same axleguards as the H&P photo wagon; also self-contained buffers which suggests conversion from dumb buffers but full-width headstocks - otherwise it's very like the H&P wagon.

 

The five plank side-and-end door wagon is a real dog's breakfast. One pair of self-contained buffers - I've seen photos of wagons economically converted from dumb buffers this way before but can't recall if there's a preference or reason for sprung buffers at the end door end. At first I thought the wheelbase was asymmetric but I think that's just due to the image being distorted - I presume this is the edge of the glass plate. The length of solebar protruding to make the dumb buffer adds to the illusion. Not the cross-diagonal bracing inside, as signposted by the X-shaped bolt pattern on the side sheets. Wooden brakeblocks of course.

 

Any date for this photo? The crane is presumably a hand-operated one, looking far too weedy to be one of the Cowans Sheldon 15T steam cranes of 1900.

 

I hadn't really looked closely, but you're right, the wagon on the far right could well be a twin of the one at H&P which I now suspect was built in the early '70s rather than late. As for the buffers, they could mean conversion from broad gauge – I'm sure BG John can enlighten us – as BG wagons all had sprung or 'elastic' buffers which would have been re-used on conversion to NG; this at least was what happened with PO wagons.

 

The wagons in this photo are quite possibly distorted as it is as you surmise the edge of the plate – and the photographer  was using a rather less sparkling lens than usual!

 

The crane is a hand-operated 12 ton affair which lasted at least to 1935 and probably longer. But I haven't been able to find out when it was built. There is a photo in GWR Wagons Appendix fig 235 which is the same photo but with all the lovely background blocked out! The crane had had a viewing platform attached to the end of the jib for tunnel inspection work so I presume it was not new when photographed. As for date, I can't do much better than 1900 ±5 years. There were still quite a few wagons from the 1870s in use in the early 1900s: the famous/notorious single plank wagon no.5141 (see ATB plate 338) was withdrawn from Bridgwater in 1907 and I think scrapped though quite a few wagons of this vintage withdrawn in the 1900s enjoyed a life after death as 'Factory' or 'Dock' wagons.

[wagonman]

I need to know if all these interesting wagons were still running in 1905!

 

Just a chance, John, just a chance. They were being slaughtered wholesale in the Edwardian period as lots of new wagons came into service.

[BG John]

I hadn't really looked closely, but you're right, the wagon on the far right could well be a twin of the one at H&P which I now suspect was built in the early '70s rather than late. As for the buffers, they could mean conversion from broad gauge – I'm sure BG John can enlighten us – as BG wagons all had sprung or 'elastic' buffers which would have been re-used on conversion to NG; this at least was what happened with PO wagons.

I wish I could . I'm confused, and lacking in knowledge! I know almost nothing about BG wagons other than what is in the BGS Data Sheets, that cover the early period, and the convertibles. I've been told that no records exist for anything else, which is why I ask awkward questions whenever anyone posts a photo, but never seem to get a helpful answer! There have been captions written for some photos, but where the information came from, or if it was made up, I've no idea.