Early Great Western wagon: identified as conversion from broad gauge

[Compound2632]

PS: Small "GWR" moved from left to right hand side in 1894.

 

Missed your reminder of this, which strengthens the dating to c. 1900 - wagon repainted (or at least re-lettered) after 1894 but evidently in traffic for quite a while.

 

To sum up what I've learnt about the wagon which was the subject of my original enquiry, it's almost certainly a conversion from broad gauge, re-using the original self-contained buffers, but there's little else that can be said since it's from the depths of the Great Western's dark ages (1860s through to early 1890s), whither only a few heroic souls dare venture... 

 

The mid-Victorian dark age was fairly universal as far as rolling stock is concerned - for many companies it took the establishment of a new works for a continuous written record to begin - rather like the arrival of the monasteries. The Great Western was like pagan Lithuania - the last to see the light of conversion... 

[garethashenden]

Could it be Cornish? The Cornwall Minerals Railway had some weird wagons that lived long enough to be photographed but are not included in the diagram books?

Marc

The weird and wonderful CMR wagons that I'm aware of were iron bodied china clay wagons. They had a very short wheelbase, very short overall actually, but spent their lives in relatively captive service. They worked from clay dries to the docks and back, never venturing out of Cornwall.

[MarcD]

They must have more wagons the those use for handling clay. As coal shouldn't have been handled in clay wagons as it would have contaminated the clay.

There is a photo of a wooden wagon, at Fowey, with dead buffers and a big white star on its side in the big white book. There is no diagram issued for it and it's a bit of a mystery it looks like a wagon of a similar age.

I also have a photo of a 3 plank side and end door wagon very similar to that owned by north and rose. It can be dated using the change in lettering as post 1904 but before 1923 as it has the large GW, there are others with small GWR on the right hand side and none with the small GW.

Marc

[wagonman]

They must have more wagons the those use for handling clay. As coal shouldn't have been handled in clay wagons as it would have contaminated the clay.

There is a photo of a wooden wagon, at Fowey, with dead buffers and a big white star on its side in the big white book. There is no diagram issued for it and it's a bit of a mystery it looks like a wagon of a similar age.

I also have a photo of a 3 plank side and end door wagon very similar to that owned by north and rose. It can be dated using the change in lettering as post 1904 but before 1923 as it has the large GW, there are others with small GWR on the right hand side and none with the small GW.

Marc

 

 

Anything with a big white star on its side would likely have been hired from the Birmingham wagon co. The GWR hired quite a few wagons from B'ham in the early 1900s. Comprehensive details are in the GWSG Pannier39. Most of them were for clay traffic

 

 

Richard

[corneliuslundie]

I would agree that the wagon with dumb buffers one end will have been a PO one, most likely. As far as I know none of the bigger South Wales companies had any. The reason was something to do with the coal drops, the sprung buffers lessening the shock to the rather friable coal but being cheaper than putting them both ends.

But it is possible that some of the smaller, more impecunious, companies further west might have bought second hand wagons of this type, though records are pretty scant unless the GWR later got hold of them.

And while the GWR may have re-used buffers when converting from BG to SG, for conversion from dumb buffers there were a large number of approved designs, see for example the book on the Ince wagon company.

Jonathan

[wagonman]

They must have more wagons the those use for handling clay. As coal shouldn't have been handled in clay wagons as it would have contaminated the clay.

There is a photo of a wooden wagon, at Fowey, with dead buffers and a big white star on its side in the big white book. There is no diagram issued for it and it's a bit of a mystery it looks like a wagon of a similar age.

I also have a photo of a 3 plank side and end door wagon very similar to that owned by north and rose. It can be dated using the change in lettering as post 1904 but before 1923 as it has the large GW, there are others with small GWR on the right hand side and none with the small GW.

Marc

 

 

Marc

 

The CMR bought two* batches of iron-bodied wagons from the Swansea Wagon Co, 50 in December 1873 and 46 "iron-bodied wagons as before" in March 1874. The only other deal with Swansea that I have found was for two 'stone wagons' in April 1874. As it was a Mineral Railway, built to carry clay from the dries to the docks, I doubt they would have needed much else – coal could/would have been carried in coal company wagons, presumably.

 

*The Swansea records do have an enigmatic reference to "150 wagons ex buffer springs Cornwall Minerals Railway Co." in August 1873 which may have referred to more of the same – I don't have the stock total at GWR take-over. Does anyone know, please?

 

 

Richard

[MarcD]

Just  found this photo taken somewere around St Austell. Its got the the Cornwall Mineral Railways iron body china clay wagons  but the wooden mineral wagon on the right hand side.

 

Marc

[wagonman]

Just  found this photo taken somewere around St Austell. Its got the the Cornwall Mineral Railways iron body china clay wagons  but the wooden mineral wagon on the right hand side.

 

Marc

 

 

Great photo! The GWR wagon on the far right is indeed one of those hired form the Birmingham Co. It has been converted to spring buffers too – some of the hired wagons were converted while on hire, others were converted just before the hire period and were then registered as Freighters Wagons by the GWR!

 

The wagon 3rd from the left looks to belong to Candy & Co of the brick etc works at Heathfield. I have seen one of their wagons at Box, Wiltshire, so they got around a bit.

 

 

Richard

[MarkAustin]

A note on GWR wagon numbering.

 

First, these notes are entirely my own conclusions, based on studies of GWR Wagon and Lot registers. I've not found any official confirmation of this. Having said this, on we go.

 

Second, please note the difference between revenue and capital stock. If a completely new class or group of wagons was built, it was charged to capital: increasing the stock of the company. If a replacement of existing wagons, it was charged to revenue: nominally no change to the value of the company. These are accounting and not engineering terms. In general Atkins et al refers to revenue wagon numbers as various unless they were in significant blocks.

 

Third. These notes are based on my studies and transcription of the GWR Lot Registers, amplified by Atkins et al, John Lewis's articles in GWRJ and other sources.

 

Period 1. Pre 1892.

 

As far as I can establish, all capital wagons were numbered in blocks (I'm 100% certain on this), but replacement (revenue) wagons took the numbers of the wagons they replaced, so were completely random. So, wagon 3045 (number invented) was scrapped and replaced by a new 3045.

 

1892-to grouping

 

Again, as far as I can establish, capital wagons continued in new number blocks as before, but, for revenue (replacement) it appears, perhaps as a result of a backlog of narrow gauge wagon construction whilst converting the BG stock, the company kept a list of scrapped and withdrawn wagons, and numbered their replacements in numerical order. So new wagon were numbered in blocks, and replacement wagons were numbered re-using old numbers, but in numerical order, with the lowest re-used number first.

 

Post-grouping.

 

At some point after the grouping, all wagon, whether capital or revenue were numbered in new blocks, mostly in the 100,000+ range, which makes life much simpler.

 

WW2 problems

 

Some wagons converted or rebuilt during WW2 kept their original numbers, and absent a complete search of the Wagon registers, I don't think I'll ever get them sorted out, so they're staying as Various.

 

Mark A

[Compound2632]

A note on GWR wagon numbering.

 

First, these notes are entirely my own conclusions, based on studies of GWR Wagon and Lot registers. I've not found any official confirmation of this. Having said this, on we go.

 

Second, please note the difference between revenue and capital stock. If a completely new class or group of wagons was built, it was charged to capital: increasing the stock of the company. If a replacement of existing wagons, it was charged to revenue: nominally no change to the value of the company. These are accounting and not engineering terms. In general Atkins et al refers to revenue wagon numbers as various unless they were in significant blocks.

 

Third. These notes are based on my studies and transcription of the GWR Lot Registers, amplified by Atkins et al, John Lewis's articles in GWRJ and other sources.

 

Period 1. Pre 1892.

 

As far as I can establish, all capital wagons were numbered in blocks (I'm 100% certain on this), but replacement (revenue) wagons took the numbers of the wagons they replaced, so were completely random. So, wagon 3045 (number invented) was scrapped and replaced by a new 3045.

 

 

So in principle, the last number given to a batch of new (capital additions to stock) wagons should be the upper limit on the total number of wagons in stock at that time - the true number would be slightly lower due to old wagons withdrawn but their replacements not yet taken into stock. The Midland worked on a similar principle though the large-scale (60,000-odd) purchase and replacement of PO wagons in the 1880s and 1890s skewed things a bit.

[MarcD]

I have just found this photo. Although its not a GWR wagon its the first PO clay wagon with dead buffers on one end and sprung on the other. I also found a Cornwall Minerals Railway iron china clay wagon in GWR livery with the same buffer arrangement in the Newquay Branch book. most photos of this type of wagon show sprung buffer on both ends.

 

Marc

Edited May 26, 2017 by Furness Wagon

[BG John]

That's an interesting traverser. The rails on the track to the right seem to be blocking the rails the traverser runs on, and the rails on it seem to be too long to go in the gap!

 

Any idea of the date, and where it is?

[Compound2632]

That's an interesting traverser. The rails on the track to the right seem to be blocking the rails the traverser runs on, and the rails on it seem to be too long to go in the gap!

 

Any idea of the date, and where it is?

 

An illusion, I think, arising from (i) the fact that the traverser track is about a rail height below the rails on the traverser and (ii) the traverser is further from the track behind than you first think. For a while I thought the traverser track sloped away from the camera but I think that's another illusion. 

 

That's a very distinctive maker's plate, but whose?

Edited May 26, 2017 by Compound2632

[MarcD]

That's an interesting traverser. The rails on the track to the right seem to be blocking the rails the traverser runs on, and the rails on it seem to be too long to go in the gap!

 

Any idea of the date, and where it is?

 

The closest I can get on a date is post 1892 (Cornwall Railway re-gauged to 4ft81/2) and 1914 if the wagon was rebuilt with sprung buffers. As for the location I would say it would be the builders but I don't recognise the builders plate.

 

Marc 

[Il Grifone]

Blowing up the photo, the plate appears to read, "The Bute Works Supply Co. Ltd.".  Dumb buffers were outlawed by 1914 (including single ended bodges AFAIK) so this suggests a date some time before this. The white tyres and fresh paint suggest that the wagon is pictured as new/rebuilt, so probably at the builder's works in Cardiff.

 

A very neat wagon - I must curb the scratch build urge, I must.....

Edited May 29, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Compound2632]

I must curb the scratch build urge, I must.....

 

Why?

[MarcD]

I don't think I could resist. I'm thinking of getting at least one printed.

 

Marc

[Il Grifone]

Why?

 

Good question - lots of unfinished projects already....  

 

Any thoughts on colour? It appears to be red oxide with the ironwork picked out in black. Of course it would have been all over white once loaded. China clay gets everywhere!

Edited May 29, 2017 by Il Grifone

[Guy Rixon]

An illusion, I think, arising from (i) the fact that the traverser track is about a rail height below the rails on the traverser and (ii) the traverser is further from the track behind than you first think. For a while I thought the traverser track sloped away from the camera but I think that's another illusion. 

 

That's a very distinctive maker's plate, but whose?

 

 

The traverser has two rails above rail height of the siding, to carry the flanged wheels and two outer ones matching the siding rail-height and carrying flangeless wheels. It neatly avoids having to cut the siding rails, building a pit for the traverser substructure, and having to make the traverser n+1 roads wide to serve n sidings.

 

I expect to build a traverser on a restricted site and I'd quite like to model this kind. Does anybody know of any drawings?

 

I expect to 

[MarcD]

Good question - lots of unfinished projects already....  

 

Any thoughts on colour? It appears to be red oxide with the ironwork picked out in black. Of course it would have been all over white once loaded. China clay gets everywhere!

 

It could red oxide but it could also be grey, dark yellow, orange or even brown. All of these colours are hard to pick out in black and white photos. And they were all used on china clay wagons along with black.

 

Marc  

[Compound2632]

There's too clear a distinction between the ironwork and the woodwork for the latter to be red - red appears as black in photographs of this period as the emulsion was only photosensitive at shorter wavelengths. So I would have thought a dark lead grey the most likely - though in the absence of any other information, Marc's more esoteric colours are possible. If you painted it dark yellow, it would be very hard to prove you wrong!

[MarcD]

There's too clear a distinction between the ironwork and the woodwork for the latter to be red - red appears as black in photographs of this period as the emulsion was only photosensitive at shorter wavelengths. So I would have thought a dark lead grey the most likely - though in the absence of any other information, Marc's more esoteric colours are possible. If you painted it dark yellow, it would be very hard to prove you wrong!

Very hard to find a witness. Post 1919 the China Clay producers started to amalgamat with most independent producers vanishing by 1950.

This company vanished into ECC in 1940.

 

Marc

[wagonman]

I have just found this photo. Although its not a GWR wagon its the first PO clay wagon with dead buffers on one end and sprung on the other. I also found a Cornwall Minerals Railway iron china clay wagon in GWR livery with the same buffer arrangement in the Newquay Branch book. most photos of this type of wagon show sprung buffer on both ends.

 

Marc

 

 

Wonderful photo, Mark. I can't tell you much about it other than that it had its dumb buffers replaced by sprung ones and was re-registered by the GWR in August 1909. The lettering is shaded so I would presume it's painted red or some other darkish colour. I don't recognise that strange shaped plate on the solebar...

 

Ah, just noticed an earlier post! The plate is Bute Works Supply Co.

 

 

Richard

Edited June 12, 2017 by wagonman

[Il Grifone]

OK I give up! so another project is added to the list....

 

Interestingly the wheels are painted body colour. A general practice or just 'bull' for the official photo? it's not really relevant, as on a working clay wagon they would be white.

 

Hunting further info., I found this reference claiming it's at Burngullow works (presumably just after delivery?).

 

http://cornishmemory.com/item/WMA_P1_1_2156

 

Their surviving lorry is painted grey - somewhere I have a photo of my daughter sitting on this (in the mid '80s). (I haven't seen it for a while though....)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/martin_addison/8168922167

[wagonman]

On reflection, I still go with red (not oxide but something like London Red) or purple brown for the P&P wagon. While orthochromatic film, Introduced from 1873, was technically only sensitive to the blue and green parts of the RBG spectrum, it wasn't totally blind to the red end – 95% maybe – as over long exposure even to the red safelight in the darkroom can induce a bit of fogging. Found that out the hard way.

 

 

Richard