Traction tyres Hornby 14XX

[Adrian Rosenlund]

Greetings one and all,

Recieved today a (used) Hornby 14XX, advertised as 'like new', which it was...except for the traction tyres, one of which it shed after running a few foot in what is best described as a bumpy fashion. In my eagerness, i didn't check before running (lesson learnt). Can i run the loco with the remnants of the tyres removed, or is it not advisable? The usual Hornby bumph wasn't included with the loco (previous owner presumably having kept or chucked it), so i've no diagram to work from in order to dismantle it to replace the tyres. i've never actually attempted so much as removing a locomotive body. Would it be difficult to replace the tyres? The connecting rods etc. are relatively more simple than a larger loco....

Apologies for what could be construed as a silly question, but i'm fairly new to the hobby, and always get good advice/tips/help here.

Cheers!

Adrian

PS, if it's of any consequence, the receipt for the original sale was in the box, and it was sold new in 2014...

[10000]

Service sheets are available from Hornby web site, just google them.

 

Tyres may be available from Peters Spares

 

 

Edit: while it may run without the tyre the wheel is actually grooved to accept the tyre so could be a problem on points

 

Edit 2: just checked them 2 packs in stock so don't delay

 

http://www.petersspares.com/?searchStr=Hornby+14xx+traction+tyres

Edited May 15, 2017 by 10000

[warren lodge]

Greetings one and all,

Recieved today a (used) Hornby 14XX, advertised as 'like new', which it was...except for the traction tyres, one of which it shed after running a few foot in what is best described as a bumpy fashion. In my eagerness, i didn't check before running (lesson learnt). Can i run the loco with the remnants of the tyres removed, or is it not advisable? The usual Hornby bumph wasn't included with the loco (previous owner presumably having kept or chucked it), so i've no diagram to work from in order to dismantle it to replace the tyres. i've never actually attempted so much as removing a locomotive body. Would it be difficult to replace the tyres? The connecting rods etc. are relatively more simple than a larger loco....

Apologies for what could be construed as a silly question, but i'm fairly new to the hobby, and always get good advice/tips/help here.

Cheers!

Adrian

PS, if it's of any consequence, the receipt for the original sale was in the box, and it was sold new in 2014...

[warren lodge]

In reply to the problems you have with the 14XX,remove the traction tyre wheels,and fit a set of normal14XX wheels (without the grove),they simply pull off and push on,Peters spares should stock them.check the wheel gauge is okay.Then put some lead weight in the cab,I used flat lead sheet glued to the inside roof.My 14XX will pull six or seven wagons or two coaches,more than adequate for this loco,and runs lovely, Hope this helps,Warren

[cessfordalan]

Hi Adrian

May I butt into your post as I have a similar problem.

 

Hi Warren,

Would your advice on the 14 xx wheel problem work on a very old Airfix model, which has sentimental value to me and I would love to see it run again.

Many thanks in advance

Alan

[DCB]

To change the traction Tyres just pull the crank pins out of the grooved wheels and slip the tyres over the wheels making sure they are the right tyres and that they fit right in the grooves. If they aren't / don't you are in to 3 legged crab territory.    Neither Airfix not Dapol/Hornby will pull the skin off a rice pudding without traction tyres.  The Airfix is well engineered and runs smoothly with new tyres and the Dapol/ Hornby isn't and won't.    We have 3 of the things and the remains of at least 7 in the scrap box.  The Hattons 14XX is so much better its embarrassing.    My plans B-Z involve extra non traction tyre wheels and gearing the back axle of one to the motor, fitting an extra motor to drive the rear axle, fitting a completely new chassis with 50:1  gearing to the driving wheels and 40:1 to the trailing wheels

[petrox]

To change the traction Tyres just pull the crank pins out of the grooved wheels and slip the tyres over the wheels making sure they are the right tyres and that they fit right in the grooves. If they aren't / don't you are in to 3 legged crab territory.    Neither Airfix not Dapol/Hornby will pull the skin off a rice pudding without traction tyres.  The Airfix is well engineered and runs smoothly with new tyres and the Dapol/ Hornby isn't and won't.    We have 3 of the things and the remains of at least 7 in the scrap box.  The Hattons 14XX is so much better its embarrassing.    My plans B-Z involve extra non traction tyre wheels and gearing the back axle of one to the motor, fitting an extra motor to drive the rear axle, fitting a completely new chassis with 50:1  gearing to the driving wheels and 40:1 to the trailing wheels

Just to add a different experience, my Dapol/Hornby 14xx runs perfectly happily with the original grooved driving wheels without traction traction tyres - no problems on points (Peco large radius / Electrofrog), and push/pulls 2 autocoaches even up a slight gradient on a curve. I would suggest a trial run without traction tyres.

[Graham456]

In reply to the problems you have with the 14XX,remove the traction tyre wheels,and fit a set of normal14XX wheels (without the grove),they simply pull off and push on, Hope this helps,Warren

Yes ! But ! I have often read this advise but! What do you do about useing the front wheels on the back compleatly stuffs up the wheel balance weight position and shape on the wheels

[The Johnster]

I hate traction tyres; they prevent good slow running and smooth starts and stops, and unless they fit perfectly, which they very rarely do, the lift the loco and mess up current pickup from the rail.  Then they wear, stretch and break.  They are Satan's spit.

 

My recommendation is to replace the tyre/groove wheel with a spare set of ungrooved front ones; if you are worried about the correctness of the balance weights you are going to be just as upset if not more by a groove in your rear driving wheel's tyre even if it runs ok over your pointwork.  I did this years ago on an old Airfix 14xx which I no longer possess, and an even older Airfix 61xx which I still have in daily operation on my layout; the latter loco of course has no issues with balance weights.

 

For balance weights on the 14xx, I used brass retrofit ones but I have forgotten who made them; I picked them up at a show somewhere.  They or something like them are probably still obtainable, and are a simple fit; you just superglue 'em on over the existing balance weights which are too small for the driven axle anyway, and paint them.  They will clear the crankpins.

 

I know this must be a bit scary for you if you've never even taken the body off a model before, but model railway locos, especially older ones like this, are designed to be serviced by their owners, and the process is really quite simple, especially if you download the exploded diagram from the Hornby website to guide you.  IIRC the crankpins are a push fit into there hole on the wheels, and will pull out with a pliers gripping them; be careful not to lose them!  I put small bits like this in a lump of Blu-tack 'for the duration' to keep them from wandering off.  You should then be able to prise the grooved wheel off the axle with a screwdriver against the chassis block, and the replacement is a simple force fit on the splines at the end of the axle, which should keep it square to the axle.  IIRC, there is no squared shoulder for quartering, and this has to be done by eye, but is not too difficult.  The crankpins can be pushed in and gently tapped home with a small 'toffee' hammer.

 

While you've got the top off, check everything else under there and give the drivetrain a going over with a spray electrical cleaner, which should blow any crud out of the way.  Let it evaporate dry, and apply very small amounts of lube to the bearings, gears, and anything else that needs it.  The best way to apply the lube without it going everywhere you don't want it, where it'll just attract dirt and gum things up, is with a hypodermic syringe; keep it safely stored and clearly labelled for that use only!  Even if you and those you live with have no medical (or other) use for a hypo, you might in the future and sod's law dictates that if something hasn't already gone wrong, it's about to...

 

The loco will run much more smoothly without Satan's spit wrapped around the driving wheels, and will haul 2 auto trailers, about as much as the real thing could, easily enough, though adding weight will help.  

Edited May 16, 2017 by The Johnster

[DCB]

I am pretty sure the tyres press off the Airfix wheels as I think one came loose when I was turning a tyre down to get rid of the groove. So maybe press off the grooved tyres and replace with non grooved.   I will have a look when I can get in the loft again.

Its all very well saying "it will pull 2 auto coaches," but the real thing will pull 5 up a 1 in 100 gradient without slip, as I witnessed several times at Winchcomb on the GWR  They were low powered but sure footed little locos

[The Johnster]

1 in 100? In South Wales that'd be considered level, which is why the 14xx were replaced by the 64xx for workings of more than 2 trailers, the 64xx in turn being replaced in BR days by auto-fitted 4575s, which could handle 4 trailers, 2 each fore and aft, even on bits the locals thought were a bit steep.

 

They are pocket rockets if you don't overload them, though, as David says, and have a surprising turn of speed for a loco with 'only' 5'2" driving wheels; they'll leave any 64xx or 4575 standing on reasonable grades with 2 trailers.  I have some experience with 1420 on the Dean Forest Railway, not a billiard table by any means, and the loco seemed quite at home with 3 mk1s.   Llantrisant used them on the Penygraig branch, pretty steeply graded and proper ruffytuffy mountain territory at the top end, with the wild weather to go with it, a long way and several hundred feet vertically from the bucolic country branch line image 14xx are usually associated with!

 

All the same 5 on a 1 in 100 might have been stretching the section times a bit in pre-preservation days...

 

Good point about the tyres, though; never tried that but I can't see why it wouldn't work!  I think I'd want to be securing the replacement tyre with a dab of superglue, though.

Edited May 16, 2017 by The Johnster

[Graham456]

[quote name="The Johnster" post="2724144" timestamp="1494933850

For balance weights on the 14xx, I used brass retrofit ones but I have forgotten who made them; I picked them up at a show somewhere.  They or something like them are probably still obtainable, and are a simple fit; you just superglue 'em on over the existing balance weights which are too small for the driven axle anyway, and paint them.

 

Fine but if you glue replacements of the right shape over the existing weights there the wrong side of the wheel !.....

So it ain't that simple.....

Let's hope the other posts about swapping wheel rims works it would be nice to be shot of rubber bands and I know changing to the new model would be even simpler...but that involves to much money

[coachmann]

I am reading this with interest, as the announced Hornby 'revival' interests me. I have read somewhere the traction tyre wheels can be replaced by non traction type wheels.  My interest arises form the need to fit DCC sound, a speaker and keep-alive, and i would prefer to fit all this to a loco I can knock the body off and open out the back blackhead to accommodate all the vitals. And maybe add some lead. A turned solid brass dome would be handy for added weight.

Edited May 16, 2017 by coachmann

[The Johnster]

Fine but if you glue replacements of the right shape over the existing weights there the wrong side of the wheel !.....

So it ain't that simple.....

Let's hope the other posts about swapping wheel rims works it would be nice to be shot of rubber bands and I know changing to the new model would be even simpler...but that involves to much money

 

The brass weights were shims that simply fitted over the existing weight, or if necessary the bare wheel spokes.  They go on the outside of the wheel; you don't glue them on the inside!  It was a long time ago, about 35 years, and I am sorry but I am not definitively clear about who made them; it may have been Springside or Perseverance, but don't quote me.  I don't understand how they can be on the 'wrong side of the wheel', but that's probably my fault...   The new model (Hatton's) seems to have it's own share of issues, as well as being more expensive.

 

Plus of course there is the satisfaction to be gained from making an old model run well and perform a useful function on your layout!

[DCB]

I think 14XX were allowed 150 tons in BR days on the Honeybourne line through Winchcombe so she was 1 coach over the limit.

 

I found an Airfix wheels set and the grooved tyres can be changed form plain or vice versa.  I found this when I turned down some grooved to get a deeper flange for the garden.

 

To change a tyre, first find an empty screw top standard 1/1.25/1.75/ 2 litre plastic Coke/ Pepsi/ Woodpecker bottle.   Failing this buy a full one and drink the contents. With the bottle top removed place the wheel, flange uppermost, in the neck of the bottle, place a rod against the wheel boss or spokes and give it a bit of a whack.  I used the dustpan brush. Shake the wheel centre out of the bottle  and Robert's your mother's brother.

Press it back on with your fingers.  Simples. Probably works with Hornby/ Dapol too.

Edited May 17, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[The Johnster]

Good tip, David, but I'd best stick to coke/pepsi, as I daren't go back on the cider (went through a nasty phase of being a ciderglider some years back, and don't want to revisit it.  Once an addict...).   Ok with the coke though, so long as it's diluted with rum!