Penlan Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 (edited) Looking through all the LNWR books I have that might highlight what the items on both ends of elliptical coach roofs are, I don't seem to be able to tie down a description or their exact purpose. On these two photo's there is a raised section on the top of the roof at the end, almost like a hollow concrete block. These seem to be of different heights across a range of elliptical roof coach, and I seem to recall in my searches, some of the early elliptical roof gas lit coaches had these as well. In the first view one my be tempted to say they are guards periscopes, - The three dots just visible below the 'block' are to do with the electric lighting connectors. but the second view is of a open corridor composite, with end doors. If there is a reference to what these are in the published works on the LNWR, I would be pleased for the reference, though excluding the LNWR Society's own Journal. Why, I'm trying to detail some gas lit elliptical roof coaches. I did wonder If I should have put this on LMS Coaches, we shall see. Edited May 26, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 Well you have me flumoxed. Can i copy to the LNWRS Forum, suspect Mr Millard will know Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) Well you have me flumoxed. Can i copy to the LNWRS Forum, suspect Mr Millard will know Of course you can, I don't have Philip's email address anyway. I will check the Forum, though obviously as a non-member I can't contribute etc., I have to admit in all the details available with the : LNWR Liveries - which has some of the most useful drawings for coach details. WCJS Stock L.N.W.R. Coaches (Jenkinson) L&NWR Non-Corridor Carr., I couldn't find any reference, and what LNWR Society Journals I do have, there's no mention of these roof details. Apart from a brief note I had in one of the Society's earlier newsletters, re., the gas pipes on the coach roof, I don't think I've seen that elsewhere either. It was my right hand rule : with the thumb and first finger at 90 degrees, the thumb points to the roof gas pot (on the centre line, bar those over a corridor) and the first finger points to the end of the coach where the gas pipe goes over the end and down, the non-step end. As you may be aware I've always believed it's the modellers that have pushed for details, details that the 1:1 brigade ignore, seemingly. A very good instance of this is the Coal Tank Book, plenty of pictures, drawings etc.,, but not one view of the top of the side tanks. I did post this view in the relevant topic. Edited May 28, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 28, 2017 Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) I have always regarded them as planked flat platforms and given no thought as to why they were there. Someone did whitemetal castings for them in 4mm scale but plastikard suffices. They were on the 6-wheel coaches with elliptical roofs as well, plus the oddball roofs fitted to push-pull open saloons as in the illustration of Dia. M11 in post #1. The high ones are probably to protect external wiring. Edited May 28, 2017 by coachmann 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 (edited) . The high ones are probably to protect external wiring. I had wondered that, sort of 'get knocked of first', but as far as I can see the maximum height of fittings on elliptical roofed stock on the centre line was 12' 10", the loading gauge is 13' 6". I believe the electrical wiring was internal and the light fittings no more than a 3" bump above the roof line, that maximum height of the roof itself being 12' 5.5". But thinking about it, I believe I've seen some boxed section along the roof lines to, but again not very high, say 3". The gas lamp tops where set into the roof of elliptical stock, with a small projection of about 3.5" height above the roof line, they where 3" diameter I believe. The gas pipe did run along the roof, but even with the support fittings, I doubt if that was more than 1.5" above the roof. Again none of this detail is clearly stated in the various works on LNWR stock. Edited May 28, 2017 by Penlan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) Just to keep up the interest, there appears to be a difference in the number of horizontal bars to the windows and drop-lights of the luggage areas in LNWR Bk/Luggage coaches, J.P.Richards and Ian Tattersall show 5, but a photo of a 1:1 scale D352, taken in the 1930's, in 'LNWR Non-Corridor Coaches', shows only 4 evenly spaced, to be seen (Page 33). I admit, I would have taken J.P.Richards drawings as correct, and of course Ian Tattersall, as he worked in conjunction with Philip Millard, but a photo of a real coach in service, I think trumps the drawings.I haven't seen an original LNWR GA to confirm. one way or the other. Unless of course the bars were replaced by the LMS. Edited June 2, 2017 by Penlan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Well you have me flumoxed. Can i copy to the LNWRS Forum, suspect Mr Millard will know Many thanks, I see it's posted on the Forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Your welcome Mr Penlan, apologies it took me so long to do. One member has responded saying he thinks it is a duck board to do with the water filler. Some more responses might come, but it is the AGM tomorow so I would not expect them for a little bit In post 6, what livery was the coach in? My suspect would be it was an LMS alteration but it could be an amendment. I would have to check if we have a GA drawing in the archive, it might be in the wolverton carriage diagram books which we now have 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 2, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) A completely off the wall thought, but do these have anything to do do with the routing of early train warning wire lines - I think to ring a bell in the cab? Edited June 2, 2017 by Andy Hayter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 In post 6, what livery was the coach in? My suspect would be it was an LMS alteration but it could be an amendment. I would have to check if we have a GA drawing in the archive, it might be in the wolverton carriage diagram books which we now have LMS - 1930's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Interesting, on the LNWR Forum, this OP apparently is not a question that's been asked before.As a modeller, I think roof details are probably the most important details of all, because basically we all look down on models, very rarely are layouts high enough to just have side, or track level views - and if there are, there's protest galore about the baseboard height anyway... Yet, these roof details are sometimes the most elusive. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 Its not, but the man for the job is now on it. Agree, there are very few photographs of coach roof's around. The ones that spring to mind are the ones taken at Wolverton showing the carriage sidings Baseboards at roof height, now theres a can of worms you dont want to open ☺ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) Agree, there are very few photographs of coach roof's around. The ones that spring to mind are the ones taken at Wolverton showing the carriage sidings And although the details from the photo's, which I believe the originals are either whole or half plate glass negatives*, are very good, there's not many showing brake vehicles or the later Elliptical roof coaches. There's a fair few at Birmingham New Street taken from the footbridge, but for some unknown reason I can't track down my Vols 1 & 2 by Richard Foster, and they are very good books. * Though I suspect like all those that were from Swindon that went through Oxford Publishing's hands, they are now on 35 mm film for reproduction - and from my experience, as I have a fair few prints direct from the original plates, the 35mm don't have the same clarity. Edited June 4, 2017 by Penlan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNWR lives on Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Answer to the D352 query is now on the society forum http://www.lnwrs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1132 Cheers David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Answer to the D352 query is now on the society forum http://www.lnwrs.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1132 Many thanks, appreciated, Seems to prove the old, though still the best, advice, don't copy another modeller, go for a photo wherever possible. Can you extend many thanks to Philip please. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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