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LNWR Coach Roof Detail ?


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Looking through all the LNWR books I have that might highlight what the items on both ends of elliptical coach roofs are, I don't seem to be able to tie down a description or their exact purpose.

 

On these two photo's there is a raised section on the top of the roof at the end, almost like a hollow concrete block.   These seem to be of different heights across a range of elliptical roof coach, and I seem to recall in my searches, some of the early elliptical roof gas lit coaches had these as well.

 

In the first view one my be tempted to say they are guards periscopes,

- The three dots just visible below the 'block' are to do with the electric lighting connectors.

but the second view is of a open corridor composite, with end doors.

 

If there is a reference to what these are in the published works on the LNWR,

I would be pleased for the reference, though excluding the LNWR Society's own Journal.

Why, I'm trying to detail some gas lit elliptical roof coaches.

 

post-6979-0-49533800-1495803528.jpg

 

post-6979-0-45807900-1495803541.jpg

 

I did wonder If I should have put this on LMS Coaches, we shall see.

Edited by Penlan
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Well you have me flumoxed. Can i copy to the LNWRS Forum, suspect Mr Millard will know

Of course you can, I don't have Philip's email address anyway.

I will check the Forum, though obviously as a non-member I can't contribute etc.,

 

I have to admit in all the details available with the :

LNWR Liveries - which has some of the most useful drawings for coach details.

WCJS Stock

L.N.W.R. Coaches (Jenkinson)

L&NWR Non-Corridor Carr.,

 

I couldn't find any reference, and what LNWR Society Journals I do have, there's no mention of these roof details.

Apart from a brief note I had in one of the Society's earlier newsletters, re., the gas pipes on the coach roof,

I don't think I've seen that elsewhere either. It was my right hand rule : with the thumb and first finger at 90 degrees,

the thumb points to the roof gas pot (on the centre line, bar those over a corridor) and the first finger points

to the end of the coach where the gas pipe goes over the end and down, the non-step end.

 

As you may be aware I've always believed it's the modellers that have pushed for details,

details that the 1:1 brigade ignore, seemingly.

A very good instance of this is the Coal Tank Book, plenty of pictures, drawings etc.,,

but not one view of the top of the side tanks. I did post this view in the relevant topic.

Edited by Penlan
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I have always regarded them as planked flat platforms and given no thought as to why they were there.  Someone did whitemetal castings for them in 4mm scale but plastikard suffices. They were on the 6-wheel coaches with elliptical roofs as well, plus the oddball roofs fitted to push-pull open saloons as in the illustration of Dia. M11 in post #1. The high ones are probably to protect external wiring.

Edited by coachmann
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. The high ones are probably to protect external wiring.

I had wondered that, sort of 'get knocked of first',

but as far as I can see the maximum height of fittings on elliptical roofed stock

on the centre line was 12' 10", the loading gauge is 13' 6".

I believe the electrical wiring was internal and the light fittings no more than a 3" bump above the roof line,

that maximum height of the roof itself being 12' 5.5".

But thinking about it, I believe I've seen some boxed section along the roof lines to,

but again not very high, say 3".

The gas lamp tops where set into the roof of elliptical stock,

with a small projection of about 3.5" height above the roof line, they where 3" diameter I believe.

The gas pipe did run along the roof, but even with the support fittings, I doubt if that was more than 1.5" above the roof.

 

Again none of this detail is clearly stated in the various works on LNWR stock.

Edited by Penlan
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Just to keep up the interest, there appears to be a difference in the number of horizontal bars to the windows and drop-lights of the luggage areas in LNWR Bk/Luggage coaches, J.P.Richards and Ian Tattersall show 5, but a photo of a 1:1 scale D352, taken in the 1930's, in 'LNWR Non-Corridor Coaches', shows only 4 evenly spaced,  to be seen (Page 33).

I admit, I would have taken J.P.Richards drawings as correct, and of course Ian Tattersall, as he worked in conjunction with Philip Millard, but a photo of a real coach in service, I think trumps the drawings.
I haven't seen an original LNWR GA to confirm. one way or the other.

 

Unless of course the bars were replaced by the LMS.

Edited by Penlan
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Your welcome Mr Penlan, apologies it took me so long to do.

 

One member has responded saying he thinks it is a duck board to do with the water filler.

 

Some more responses might come, but it is the AGM tomorow so I would not expect them for a little bit

 

In post 6, what livery was the coach in? My suspect would be it was an LMS alteration but it could be an amendment. I would have to check if we have a GA drawing in the archive, it might be in the wolverton carriage diagram books which we now have

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A completely off the wall thought, but do these have anything to do do with the routing of early train warning wire lines - I think to ring a bell in the cab?

Edited by Andy Hayter
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In post 6, what livery was the coach in? My suspect would be it was an LMS alteration but it could be an amendment. I would have to check if we have a GA drawing in the archive, it might be in the wolverton carriage diagram books which we now have

LMS - 1930's

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Interesting, on the LNWR Forum, this OP apparently is not a question that's been asked before.

As a modeller, I think roof details are probably the most important details of all,

because basically we all look down on models, very rarely are layouts high enough to just have side,

or track level views - and if there are, there's protest galore about the baseboard height anyway...

Yet, these roof details are sometimes the most elusive.

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Its not, but the man for the job is now on it.

 

Agree, there are very few photographs of coach roof's around. The ones that spring to mind are the ones taken at Wolverton showing the carriage sidings

 

Baseboards at roof height, now theres a can of worms you dont want to open ☺

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Agree, there are very few photographs of coach roof's around. The ones that spring to mind are the ones taken at Wolverton showing the carriage sidings

And although the details from the photo's, which I believe the originals are either whole or half plate glass negatives*, are very good, there's not many showing brake vehicles or the later Elliptical roof coaches.

There's a fair few at Birmingham New Street taken from the footbridge, but for some unknown reason I can't track down my Vols 1 & 2 by Richard Foster, and they are very good books. 

 

* Though I suspect like all those that were from Swindon that went through Oxford Publishing's hands, they are now on 35 mm film for reproduction - and from my experience, as I have a fair few prints direct from the original plates, the 35mm don't have the same clarity.

Edited by Penlan
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