Class 205 in Conjunction with Kernow Model Shop

[Guest]

Oh, and by the way Mr Bachmann, a centre coach tooling could also be used to produce a 4EPB, hint hint.

 

...which will have a RRP of £949. At which point, we'll all go purple and then take up embroidery as a less stressful hobby. Oh wait, wrong thread.

[miles73128]

...which will have a RRP of £949. At which point, we'll all go purple and then take up embroidery as a less stressful hobby. Oh wait, wrong thread.

205's now at Rails at sale price....draw your own conclusions........

[johnb]

Interesting!!

[kintbury jon]

I guess this model has gone from being an exclusive model to just an ordinary one and people aren't going to pay a premium.  Do we know how many of this batch were produced?

[Ian J.]

Should have done the 3H in blue/grey first...

[JSpencer]

Also appearing at Model Railways Direct.

[AGR Model Store]

Appearing here as well soon ....

[Gwiwer]

And also via Liverpool at above £100 a coach.   While I am not party to any commercial arrangements it is perhaps of note that some versions sold out through Kernow MRC long before the second batch were even produced.  Plain green, orange V and Connex were reasonably quick to sell albeit at the originally-announced price or just above.  The long wait for the second batch of liveries resulted in the price being very much higher attributable to Chinese labour and production costs over which no British retailer has control.  

 

The time from first production to lapse of exclusive rights may indeed have elapsed or otherwise an agreement struck to distribute these models more widely may have been reached between the parties concerned in order to achieve some sales.

 

The issue of whether or not the units should have been offered as 3-car in the first place has already been addressed by KMRC.  They felt, as they have stated more than once, that the project could not be justified as a 3-car due to the costs involved in commissioning.  The door was never firmly closed on the idea for a later run but it would appear that sales of the later batch have been disappointing perhaps due to the significantly higher price and that alone may have sealed the fate of any centre cars ever being produced.

 

On the other hand if the Thumper tooling is owned by Bachmann and not by KMRC (who state that they themselves own the tooling for many of their commissions) and sales are strong enough who knows .....  though at what price when the 2-car units are above £200 apiece now?

 

A blue 3-car?  Yes, I'd consider having one.  But the price has to be right.  Not at £300 I wouldn't, but perhaps £240.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Gwiwer

[SRman]

I know this has been mentioned before, but if Bachmann could be persuaded to produce a 4 EPB, they could run some extra centre coaches to be marketed as add-ons for the Thumpers. This would help to reduce the cost per coach and as I would assume that Bachmann would continue the through lighting facility for a 4 EPB, that would solve the problem of keeping the lighting through the 3H as well.

[steve1023]

If Rails are selling these for £180, presumably they are making profit on these - what would be the point otherwise, then would Kernow have dropped the price per unit quite considerably for onwards sale. If they have got that level of profitability built within each unit then why not just reduce the price themselves.......

 

Or is that too simplistic......

[Ian J.]

The problem with not doing the 3H, and particularly in Blue/Grey, is that all the two car variants weren't around that long during their mainline life before becoming three cars. The 3H is remembered more and as such would have been more likely to get sales. I know I for one, finances permitting, would have two or three in B/G, whereas I have no interest in a two car unit at all. If I had money to burn I might have bought a two car for the hell of it, but in these cash strapped times I think most people are being a little more careful that what they buy is in more in line with their established interests.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Ian J.

[knitpick]

Agreed a 3H would be good.  When the 2EPB was announced, I suggested to Kernow that the 3T was a possibility - the body mouldings are all there.  But apparently the 2EPB wiring harness inside the body "prevents this".

 

Now a carefully designed centre car tooling for a 3H and / or 4EPB just might also allow the production of a 3T as well?

[Gwiwer]

The problem with not doing the 3H, and particularly in Blue/Grey, is that all the two car variants weren't around that long during their mainline life before becoming three cars. The 3H is remembered more and as such would have been more likely to get sales. I know I for one, finances permitting, would have two or three in B/G, whereas I have no interest in a two car unit at all. If I had money to burn I might have bought a two car for the hell of it, but in these cash strapped times I think most people are being a little more careful that what they buy is in more in line with their established interests.

 

 

You, me (in green or blue, though, in my case) and many others too as this discussion has continued for some considerable time now.  But with the boot on the other foot KMRC clearly felt unable to commit the level of funding required and perhaps were wary of the return on a three-car unit priced initially at perhaps above £200.  IIRC the announced price was £139 for pre-orders and I'm sure there would have been some comments made had a 3H been offered at, say, £209 back then.  How many would have said "I can't afford that but would have bought a 2-car unit for less?" 

 

We also still have KMRC leading the way among our hobby retailers which also might not have been the case had they over-extended by commissioning a 3H which failed to produce the required return.  And which, as it turned out, would have been a long time coming thereby requiring a very firm belief in the end result to ensure the finances didn't go greasy-side up at the cost of losing the whole business.  Camel-backs and straws.  I don't wish to imply that KMRC might have been even close to it as I know them to be a very well-run business but it can be a fine line and some very hard decisions have to be made at times.

[40F]

It should have be a 3 car issue from the start

[Ian J.]

I think much now will depend on Bachmann - can they, with their bigger, though not bottomless, pot of resources, do the centre car? In that sense, if they do the centre car then how this comes out might be an indicator of future development of multi-part forms of stock (like units) - produce a starter as a commission, then in partnership with a main manufacturer, get the remainder made.

 

The only problem with how it's turned out with KMRC, is that it appears they hoped that the non-existence of the 3H might encourage sales of the 2H, but weren't perhaps able to predict the ongoing restriction of people's finances due to the crash/depression/recession/austerity/crappy world economy, etc, lasting so damn long.

[steve1023]

ISTR Bachmann saying they recognised an error was made by not doing the centre car when the 3 car 117 was announced last year (I think).

 

Steve

[Gwiwer]

ISTR Bachmann saying they recognised an error was made by not doing the centre car when the 3 car 117 was announced last year (I think).

 

Steve

 

 

I believe you may be referring to the original KMRC class 117 announcement in which they stated that they had intended to offer only a 2-car unit but "bearing in mind our experience with the Thumper units" the 3-car units were announced from the word go.  Unlike the 2H / 3H the 117s were triples from introduction until they lost their trailers late in their lives.  For the Thumpers it was the other way around.  Both types had a small number of units which remained 2-car throughout unless the 2-car DMMUs were class 116 or 118.  

[Oldddudders]

It should have be a 3 car issue from the start

We may think that now, but we have had a fair explanation from various sources in this thread to show why it wasn't. The need to change supplier early on, and extended time to come to market, will not have helped the commissioning shop to get its money back, still less make a quick buck. A 3-car might be what we think we want, but how many of us would go past the £200 point? And the quick disposal of the early-liveried versions also indicates that 2-cars in the right colours were a shrewd original decision.

[Ian Hargrave]

We may think that now, but we have had a fair explanation from various sources in this thread to show why it wasn't. The need to change supplier early on, and extended time to come to market, will not have helped the commissioning shop to get its money back, still less make a quick buck. A 3-car might be what we think we want, but how many of us would go past the £200 point? And the quick disposal of the early-liveried versions also indicates that 2-cars in the right colours were a shrewd original decision.

 I think we again need to remind ourselves that sound commercial decisions are not always in line with our own personal needs.It's all about the benefits of hindsight,isn't it ? My own personal observation for what it's worth is ..where on earth would we be without Kernow and its commissions ?

[steve1023]

I believe you may be referring to the original KMRC class 117 announcement in which they stated that they had intended to offer only a 2-car unit but "bearing in mind our experience with the Thumper units" the 3-car units were announced from the word go.  Unlike the 2H / 3H the 117s were triples from introduction until they lost their trailers late in their lives.  For the Thumpers it was the other way around.  Both types had a small number of units which remained 2-car throughout unless the 2-car DMMUs were class 116 or 118.  

Yes - you are right - it wasn't Bachmann at all.

 

Sorry Bachmann

[No Decorum]

We may think that now, but we have had a fair explanation from various sources in this thread to show why it wasn't. The need to change supplier early on, and extended time to come to market, will not have helped the commissioning shop to get its money back, still less make a quick buck. A 3-car might be what we think we want, but how many of us would go past the £200 point? And the quick disposal of the early-liveried versions also indicates that 2-cars in the right colours were a shrewd original decision.

You read my mind if no-one else’s. In retrospect, I was lucky to get one of the originals with sound for £200 (even if it did honk instead of whistle). The rather nicely done tooling variants were the sort of thing I usually go for but when the price leapt by £100, I decided to live without another. That’s not to say the price was excessive or unjustified; just that it was more than I was prepared to pay.

[dinkyme]

Do remember that these 205 are not the only items to have been discounted by Bachmann in the last week. I have got various 205 over the years all at different price both Bachmann & DC kits, yes I would like 3 car unit. I would like to thank Kernow for build a ready to run model.

[JSpencer]

You read my mind if no-one else’s. In retrospect, I was lucky to get one of the originals with sound for £200 (even if it did honk instead of whistle). The rather nicely done tooling variants were the sort of thing I usually go for but when the price leapt by £100, I decided to live without another. That’s not to say the price was excessive or unjustified; just that it was more than I was prepared to pay.

This exact increase lead me to drop my purchase for an NSE one and go for Connex version which was still around for far cheaper.

 

Even if you could probably pick an NSE one form £30 less than the £200 mark now, my money will be tied up by the forth coming NSE 2-EPB and 2-HAP. Both of which are more suitable for running around the Medway towns themed layout.

[jjb1970]

I think the model business may be getting into something of a vicious circle if things continue as they are. I'd buy a 3H in a second. A few years ago I'd have bought a 2H and hoped they'd do a 3H later. However at the prices we're expected today I wouldn't buy a model unless it really is the model I want as £200+ is far too much to spend for a model that is not the version I want. Maybe this is just me and I may be completely misreading everything, but if any others share my view that at the new Bachmann prices they will only buy models that conform almost exactly to what they want then that makes it an awful lot harder for those trying to figure out liveries, numbers, variants etc to produce. And yes, I know a real modeller will respray and convert RTR, but I'm not spending the new sort of Bachmann prices for a model only to rip it apart and repaint it.

[gc4946]

I now own a blue 2-car unit thanks to a well-known Sheffield supplier after I cancelled my Kernow pre-order due to their price rises.

 

However all the fuss over Kernow/Bachmann not bringing out a 3-car set evaporated once I opened the box.

 

In fact my 2-car unit fits the bill on my current layout due to platform lengths and I can call upon appropriate post-steam/pre-TOPS stock to accompany my Thumper.

 

I'm prepared to add a centre car at some stage in the future by modifying and repainting a Replica suburban Mk1.