Adrian Rosenlund Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Greetings one and all, Hope you're having a pleasant weekend. I need a little coaching with...er, coaching (i wish i was the very first to say that) Firstly, i've been looking at PlumbLoco's pictures of the Cambrian line, taken during steam's twilight years, and although i know that former LMS coaching stock was used, some of them appear to be marked 'W' (both Hawksworths and Collets?). Looks like very mixed coaching stock. Am i right in thinking there are Staniers and Mk1s in there too? Also, would it be reasonable to assume that coaches could easily appear in neighbouring areas after nationalisation, or did they stray further afield? Secondly, i'm considering buying a (green) Heljan Class 26/0 (D5317 with small yellow panels), and am wondering what coaches to put behind it? There are almost always photos of any loco of any class you care to search for, but almost never any descriptions of the rake they're pulling, except maybe now and again to tell you it's a the regular mineral train to such-and-such, or something like. Seldom a word about which kind of coaches. I suppose the author assumes you're only interested in the loco, or can tell at a glance what the coaches are. I'm curious and want to learn, so any information would be very much appreciated. https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/CambrianCoastLines/i-49XrCjC Kindest regards Adrian Edited June 3, 2017 by Adrian Rosenlund 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Greetings to you too, Adrian. I have every sympathy with your comment about captions. A friend of mine is the custodian of an extensive photo collection. As he works his way through the negatives, many of which were never printed in the lifetime of the photographer, he makes brief notes about what each one depicts. We each see photos in different ways. My friend sees the loco and some of the fixtures and fittings such as station buildings, signal boxes and water cranes. That is fine as far as it goes but what about the train? A couple of months ago there was a photo in a magazine which caught my eye. The writer of the caption had gone to a great deal of trouble to research the life and times of the loco, which he could have got from any number of books. He did not mention the first coach in the train, which was of LMS origin and not the most likely of sights in a local train heading for Cardiff. Most of the historical magazines have caption writers who do likewise. I am guessing that they are asked to write captions like that by the editor, who believes fondly that this is what his readers expect. The solution is not obvious. OK then, those Cambrian pics. The Cambrian was transferred from the Western Region to the London Midland in 1963. Even before that the LM's coaches turned up way out of their home territory. For example, on a typical summer Saturday about 150 were booked to turn up at Paignton and they were not all booked to go home again. Inevitably some got pinched for local use. When the LM's territory was greatly increased in size, it had to use whatever coaches were available. So it is that PlumbLoco's pics show mostly Hawksworths with some other coaches of GWR origin and an increasing proportion of Mk 1s and ex-LMS vehicles. Take photos 49 and 50: the two coach train shown has one LMS coach [the one with the guard's ducket] and a GW design Hawksworth 10 compartment second. Forgive me for not going through the other 111 shots! As for D5317, what you put behind it should depend on whether you are modelling anywhere in particular and at what time. By the time it got a yellow panel it was working in Scotland but for the first year or so of its working life it was based at Hornsey for GN line suburban trains. Chris 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 First question is are you modelling the Cambrian and what date? Pre-nationalisation stock did get mixed all over the place in the twilight years of steam, although towards the end it got more to be strengtheners or on summer only trains, reliefs and specials. As far as the Class 26 BRCW Sulzers are concerned I doubt if any ever got to the Cambrian in the Green era, but no doubt someone will find a picture to prove me wrong. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Ok, big subject! Your period of interest is the early/mid 60s from your possible purchase of a BRCW type 2 in green with a small yellow warning panel, and your source at the moment is a series of photos from the period taken on the Cambrian; nice photos, btw. Let's start with some general principles. By the early 60s, and certainly by the time D5317 was built, Mk1 coaches were dominating the scene and the only previous designs still around in any numbers were the later 'big 4' designs, many of which were built after nationalisation and were still quite new. So, GW Hawksworth, LMS Stanier, LNER Thompson, and SR Bullied. The most numerous of these, probably half of the total, were the Staniers. But the Cambrian still had a few sets with some of the later GW Colletts, and these can look quite similar to Staniers to an untrained (sorry) eye. The reduction of services post Beeching had enabled the railway to have a general clearout of older stock and release acres of carriage sidings that held stock that only ever moved at Christmas and August Bank Holiday; the railway generated a massive income from land sales during this period. Very few coaches were in anything but lined maroon livery or Southern Region malachite by this time, so liveries are pretty much prescribed anywhere off the Southern, and rakes or individual Southern vehicles could turn up anywhere, but as a general principle your D53xx would have been pulling lined maroon coaches if it worked on passenger trains, but bear in mind that Type 2 work was largely freight as most of the secondary passenger workings were dmu operated by that time. An easy way of identifying mk1s in photos of the period is that they have a single central girder as the main frame, and all other coaches have one either side, visible in photos whereas the mk1s look as though everything below the solebar is simply bolted to the floor except in broadside on shots. Staniers and later Colletts have smaller windows than mk 1s, but share the rounded corner and 4-panel sliding ventilator arrangement at the tops. Hawksworths and Thompsons share that type of ventilator, but have squarer corners in the case of the Hawksworths and square corners in the case of the Thomsons; both types have some plain windows without ventilators on the corridor side and have flush glazing. Thompsons and Bullieds (instantly recognisable by the malachite green livery) have panels extending below the top of the solebar, with gaps under the doors. Another aid to identification is the bogies, as each type has it's company's distinctive pattern. The LNER is particularly distinctive, the Gresley plate frame bogie, and the Staniers, Bullieds. and British Railways' B1 bogies are broadly similar; Hawkworths and Colletts are not dissimilar, but instantly identifiable by not having tiebars between the axleboxes. Post 1962, some mk1s have the Commonwealth Pattern bogie, sleepers and catering vehicles being the first to be fitted, and B4 bogies began to appear on some WR stock at around the same time, but that design made little impact until the mk2s began to appear, and many mk1s were retrofitted with it, but this is getting beyond your remit of a green BRCW with small yellow warning panels Staniers and Colletts are 60' long and flat-ended; all others are 64' long and bow ended, Hawksworths having distinctive elliptical 'semi domed' roof ends as well. If it's got oval buffers or buckeye couplings, it isn't a GW or LMS coach. This is a very generalised recognition guide, I do not claim it to be definitive, but it should help you identify coaches and types from photographs. You can familiarise yourself with the different types by studying photographs, but the model railway catalogues are a very useful source as well, as all the above types are easily available from rtr manufacturers, and mostly to a very high standard as well! Back to D5317. She is a Scottish loco, which means that she is more likely to be hauling main line passenger trains than Type 2s elsewhere. Mk1s, becoming more numerous over time, and a sprinkling of Staniers and Thompsons (perhaps even the odd Gresley), becoming less numerous over time. One might expect a higher number of Staniers on ex LMS routes and Thompsons on ex LNER routes, but things had become a bit more homogenous after a few years of being under one Regional management. The prefix for Scottish Region allocated coaches was SC, with no suffix for mk1s, but M or E as appropriate for Staniers and Thompsons even if they were built by BR after nationalisation, so if it looks a bit like a Stanier but has a W suffix to the number, it's a Collett. Of course, BRCWs worked with LMR M prefixed, ER E prefixed, and NER NE prefixed stock on through services as well, including the Euston-Inverness sleeper. Edited June 3, 2017 by The Johnster 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted June 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Do not underestimate the number of occasions on which Gresleys appeared as strengthening vehicles on the Cambrian http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=48191 Phil Edited June 3, 2017 by Phil Bullock 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Rosenlund Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Sorry chaps. Didn't make myself clear. The two questions were entirely unrelated in terms of my modelling ambitions. No, i don't model Cambrian, and i wouldn't put a 26 on it if i did. I don't model any specific region, because there are far too many different pretty locos for me to attach myself to any one region, although i do favour Midland, with a bit of Western thrown in, so the Cambrian is an interesting subject, being an odd blend of GW and LMS. I'm building a garden layout on which i'll run various things, within Era 5, (well, mostly) as they take my fancy, such as the Class 26 mentioned, but with as much accuracy as can be managed. Still and all, very helpful, and made me chuckle in parts. Thanks very much. Lots to think about, and much information, as usual. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmay2002 Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I'm building a garden layout on which i'll run various things, within Era 5, (well, mostly) as they take my fancy, Most modellers won't know or care what "era 5" is and you won't find it in any book or reference material talking about the actual prototypes. It's much clearer if you just give the span of years you are interested in when you ask people for help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I understand that surplus Stanier coaches were transferred to the Western region in the late sixties. I can remember always trying to ride in one when I visited my parents in Leamington Spa from Paddington in the late sixties. (My impression was a better ride than MK Is - the bogie was not one of Swindon's better efforts). I don't know if they had WxxxxM numbers (or whether I even thought to look). Trains composed of mixed stock were a Great Western tradition in any case. These 'eras' are some daft modern idea (From Europe (Germany?) I believe, where they might have some meaning). British railway history is rather too complicated for the system. It's much simpler to state x company/region y period (in years). (IMHO) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2017 I understand that surplus Stanier coaches were transferred to the Western region in the late sixties. I can remember always trying to ride in one when I visited my parents in Leamington Spa from Paddington in the late sixties. (My impression was a better ride than MK Is - the bogie was not one of Swindon's better efforts). I don't know if they had WxxxxM numbers (or whether I even thought to look). Trains composed of mixed stock were a Great Western tradition in any case. These 'eras' are some daft modern idea (From Europe (Germany?) I believe, where they might have some meaning). British railway history is rather too complicated for the system. It's much simpler to state x company/region y period (in years). (IMHO) They were numbered WxxxxM, and some Bullieds similarly transferred were numbered WxxxxS. The GW and BR(W) rule for all except named trains was that no two coaches of the same design were to be marshalled next to each other, but that where this could not be avoided no two of the same livery were to be so marshalled, and that if this could not be avoided one had to be turned on a turntable or triangle if necessary to prevent the corridor being on the same side*. Eras are largely meaningless in UK modelling, but are a very useful tool if your local model shop groups stuff into them in display cases, as mine does. *this sentence may not actually be completely true, but the principle holds... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2017 Sorry chaps. Didn't make myself clear. The two questions were entirely unrelated in terms of my modelling ambitions. No, i don't model Cambrian, and i wouldn't put a 26 on it if i did. I don't model any specific region, because there are far too many different pretty locos for me to attach myself to any one region, although i do favour Midland, with a bit of Western thrown in, so the Cambrian is an interesting subject, being an odd blend of GW and LMS. I'm building a garden layout on which i'll run various things, within Era 5, (well, mostly) as they take my fancy, such as the Class 26 mentioned, but with as much accuracy as can be managed. Still and all, very helpful, and made me chuckle in parts. Thanks very much. Lots to think about, and much information, as usual. Adrian In that case, pretty much anything in lined maroon livery will be fine behind D5317, with the emphasis on Staniers and mk1s. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted June 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2017 D5317 spent its first couple of months at Hornsey then just over a year at Finsbury Park. I would expect its work consisted of mainly suburban and cross-London freight trips. It would still be without the yellow panel when it moved to Scotland. Stock there would have been Mk1s, Gresleys, Thompsons and Staniers. Regarding mixing of stock on the WR, much of the Ex GWR stock in the area transferred to the LMR in 1963 was replaced by Staniers. Probably as a result of the WR making sure that what they left behind was the worst they could find. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespa Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) You may find this super website of great use with photo's of almost everything everywhere. Some of my photo's are on there as well... http://www.davidheyscollection.com/index.htm Edited June 4, 2017 by Vespa Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 For the Class 26 in green with SYP then most passenger trains it would be pulling would be BR Mark 1 in maroon. They had well left the Eastern Region before gaining the yellow warning panel. Transferred in 1960. I think they started getting the yellow panels in 1962. First getting painted blue in 1967. Plenty of useful information here. http://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html and here https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=5317&type=D&loco=5317 Another thread about liveries here, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42061-class-260-livery-transition-1967-70/ Nothing really wrong with the Era/Epoch system BTW. A useful way for people who aren't experts to get a vague idea that their purchases are within the correct timeline. Jason 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2017 I'm from the Silurian Era myself... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 I'll have to tell The Doctor..... Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted June 4, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 4, 2017 I'll have to tell The Doctor..... Jason We were very misrepresented in that show, you know. Just because our Era ended with the biggest mass extinction ever, in which 90% of all life on the planet died and which makes the Cretaceous/Tertiary event that saw off Dinosaurs look like a third rate village fireworks display... No sense of humour, you Earthlings... Trilobites rule!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 One thing to bear in mind – you can be sure carriage shunters did – is that GWR and LMS coaches used the British Standard gangway connectors whereas the LNER and BR Mk 1s (and SR too) used the Pullman type. These were dissimilar and needed special adapters to join them, hence mixing was avoided as much as possible. That's not to say it didn't happen... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckymucklebackit Posted June 4, 2017 Share Posted June 4, 2017 For the Class 26 in green with SYP then most passenger trains it would be pulling would be BR Mark 1 in maroon. They had well left the Eastern Region before gaining the yellow warning panel. Transferred in 1960. I think they started getting the yellow panels in 1962. First getting painted blue in 1967. Plenty of useful information here. http://www.derbysulzers.com/class26.html and here https://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=5317&type=D&loco=5317 Another thread about liveries here, http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/42061-class-260-livery-transition-1967-70/ Nothing really wrong with the Era/Epoch system BTW. A useful way for people who aren't experts to get a vague idea that their purchases are within the correct timeline. Jason Being a mid 60s Scottish modeller I have many books on the subject and yes Mk1s would be predominant, but LMS and LNER coaches lingered on many services - you can also add Bullied coaches to that list, as a few were transferred to Scotland in that period, though most were painted in maroon before or shortly after transfer Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) omis Regarding mixing of stock on the WR, much of the Ex GWR stock in the area transferred to the LMR in 1963 was replaced by Staniers. Probably as a result of the WR making sure that what they left behind was the worst they could find. This was/is standard industrial practice I thought, not just on railways.... Edited June 21, 2017 by Il Grifone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 One thing to bear in mind – you can be sure carriage shunters did – is that GWR and LMS coaches used the British Standard gangway connectors whereas the LNER and BR Mk 1s (and SR too) used the Pullman type. These were dissimilar and needed special adapters to join them, hence mixing was avoided as much as possible. That's not to say it didn't happen... Not to mention the buffers and couplings; retracting/extending and changing these over must have been a real PITA! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted June 21, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 21, 2017 Plumb Loco Many Mark 1s Seen TK, BTK (SK BSK later on) a nice shot of a Hawksworth TK, another shot a BTK I THINK one set is BTK with a Collett Sunshine (Mainline) TK My advice would be to get a few Hornby Hawksworths in Maroon and a few Bachmann or Hornby Mark 1s on BR1s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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