Goods traffic in vans....

[Poggy1165]

I was idly browsing my (replica) 1904 Cambrian timetable the other night, (as one does) when I noticed an advert. It offered through transit to (practically anywhere) by  goods van.

 

Of course, this was before the Advertising Standards Act, but I was surprised on two counts.

 

1. The promise of through conveyance. Wot, no tranships? Of course this may have been for near full or full loads, but no detail is offered.

 

2. The use (or promise) of vans. Popular wisdom has it that vans were pretty rare in pre-group days and that sheeted opens were the norm. But here is the Cambrian, not by any means the richest or largest of railways, offering its punters a promise of vans for their through traffic.

 

Has anyone any comments? Or can we all go and order a nice Cambrian van kit with a clear conscience?

Edited June 4, 2017 by Poggy1165

[ChrisN]

I have a list of Cambrian Wagons and out of 2517 wagons there were approximately 270m vans.  The earliest built in 1867, that last in 1912, with lots built around the end of the 19th century.  So go ahead and order.  I have comments on my thread about vans from various people.

[Nearholmer]

It was probably the 'premium' nature of the service that was meant to appeal to the reader of the advert.

 

If you were, say, a cloth maker who had a large order for flannel to fulfill, getting your bolts to the Customer unmolested by goods porters might appeal.

 

I have to say I can't think of a huge number of other classes of goods where such a concern might apply, but there must have been some. Toy factories supplying the big London stores? Makers of tins of varnish? Anything that might be subject to heavy pilferage, but was in large volume, and not quite valuable enough to consign as a stack of (tracked) parcels?

 

Furniture, probably, given that ikea hadn't yet been invented, and some factories specialised in "almost posh" stuff, including some seriously cumbersome things.

 

Large harps being consigned to Eistedfodda (this being Wales)? Organs for chapels? A wholesale cargo of wood-framed writing slates for the LCC?

 

Two large rolls of newsprint?

 

A grand piano?

 

Lathes and other machine tools?

 

Dynamos and other electrical equipment?

 

Bottled beer in crates? Eggs, ditto?

 

Boots and shoes? A large consignment of military webbing? Small arms to fulfill military orders?

 

Tins of beans? Tins of bully beef? Boxes of biscuits?

 

Carpets?

 

Interesting.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Nearholmer

[Poggy1165]

One factor may have been the (relative) lack of high-value originating goods on the Cambrian. I don't doubt there was some industry, but apart from the slate trade (which would certainly use opens) a lot of the traffic would have been agricultural. Indeed, in the same fascinating publication is an advert for cheap transport of things like dead rabbits by passenger train to places like Manchester and Liverpool.

 

Chris N's post above shows quite a decent percentage of Cambrian vans I should have thought, so maybe they were able to supply vans whenever needed. Unlike some railways!

 

I would love to know the full story of goods traffic and how it was handled pre-group. Every time I think I have a handle on it I discover some new twist.

 

(As an aside, one of the traffics I find most fascinating is the transport of mangles (for washing clothes) from Keighley. Apparently they went all over the country. But in vans or sheeted opens? Who knows? But that's certainly a traffic everyone can share - and maybe in some product list there's a whitemetal mangle. From what I can gather the traffic was shared by the MR, GN and GC (running powers over the GN.) )

[Stubby47]

 

 

 and maybe in some product list there's a whitemetal mangle.

 

Langley #F96

 

http://www.langley-models.co.uk/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_OO_Scale_Accessories_F77_to_F171f_14.html

[Nearholmer]

Flour.

[Guy Rixon]

I wonder if this relates to control of liability for damage? That might be tricky to sort out if the load is transhipped. E.g. I send my less-than-wagon-load of writing slates from Wales to Ashford, say, it is collected by the Cambrian, handed over to the GWR, who tranship it to build up a full wagon-load and later hand over to the SECR, who eventually deliver broken slates to the consignee. Who's at fault? I guess as customer I seek compensation from the Cambrian, but perhaps it gets delayed while the Cambrian argues blame with the other two.

 

Alternatively, the service may be aimed at goods that are hard to replace in a timely way: e.g. any custom order of expensive stuff. The special conditions then would be to ensure that the load does not travel in a sheeted open (because sheets sometime leak and the risk of water damage is unacceptable, even if the railway pays for it). Excluding tranship is not fear of clumsy porters but to make sure that the load doesn't get moved to an open somewhere en route. Note that tranship inside the Cambrian network would be OK because the company could rule that loads under the special service had to go in vans. Tranship on other railways would be excluded.

 

Finally, does anyone know if the Cambrian operated "road vans" to pick up part loads of premium goods?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

One factor may have been the (relative) lack of high-value originating goods on the Cambrian. I don't doubt there was some industry, but apart from the slate trade (which would certainly use opens) a lot of the traffic would have been agricultural. Indeed, in the same fascinating publication is an advert for cheap transport of things like dead rabbits by passenger train to places like Manchester and Liverpool.

 

Chris N's post above shows quite a decent percentage of Cambrian vans I should have thought, so maybe they were able to supply vans whenever needed. Unlike some railways!

 

I would love to know the full story of goods traffic and how it was handled pre-group. Every time I think I have a handle on it I discover some new twist...

 You would need some local trade directory information from that date to understand what consignments might have moved in vans. It could have been largely inward consignments: the Cambrian vans dispatched empty to collect. This was a normal practise before the 'force majeure' of WWI initiated the general adoption of the common user principle, a process which took decades to complete.

[Nearholmer]

Tea, in chests.

 

Things that you wouldn't trust the Midland to carry five yards, let alone fifty miles.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Nearholmer

[ChrisN]

 

 

Finally, does anyone know if the Cambrian operated "road vans" to pick up part loads of premium goods?

 

I shall answer this, and it does not matter if I am wrong because the rule of RMWeb is that if you post something that you believe is true and is not within half a millisecond someone will post a correction.

 

If you mean by road van, one that is like a modern container and is hoisted onto the back of a low wagon, I have never seen a picture of one on the Cambrian.  Whether they sent a man with a horse and cart round is another matter.

[Nearholmer]

A "road van", as used by cultured railways, like the LBSCR and LSWR, and most narrow gauge ones, was a goods guard's van, with accommodation for "smalls", small items of goods, etc, and was used to collect and distribute/collect goods at stations with minimal facilities for the same. It is a goods vehicle, distinct from a passenger brake, which carried items consigned at higher rates, for higher speed, and better traceability.

 

I'd be surprised if the Can Dian didn't use them, given the nature of some of its routes.

 

K

 

PS: was that quick enough?

 

PPS: it just occurred to me that the Cambrian owned both the VoR and the W&L, each of which had road vans (the latter might even have been rebuilt as such by the Cambrian), so it had at least a few.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Nearholmer

[The Bigbee Line]

I have a lot of paperwork from the 1903 period; consignment notes and memo's chasing payment for parcels etc. One in particular is for a tin of polish from the Ronuk factory in Portslade to Wye in Kent. It shows the transhipment at Hastings. The organisation for dealing with the variety of goods was enormous. Most of this paperwork is for small items, maybe it was the small items that got lost / stolen etc. Full loads got through with less grief. I have some wagon labels for the period and one of these is a horse box from Worthing, again to Wye for the Racecourse. I think if you could afford the rate a through journey with a van was not impossible. I think I'll have a browse through pictures from the Britain from Above web site and see what I can find.

[Spitfire2865]

Tea, in chests.

Things that you wouldn't trust the Midland to carry five yards, let alone fifty miles.

That photo, along with many, was intended to show employees how to do their job in such a way as to ensure they have the rest of the year off.

[ChrisN]

A "road van", as used by cultured railways, like the LBSCR and LSWR, and most narrow gauge ones, was a goods guard's van, with accommodation for "smalls", small items of goods, etc, and was used to collect and distribute/collect goods at stations with minimal facilities for the same. It is a goods vehicle, distinct from a passenger brake, which carried items consigned at higher rates, for higher speed, and better traceability.

 

I'd be surprised if the Can Dian didn't use them, given the nature of some of its routes.

 

K

 

PS: was that quick enough?

 

PPS: it just occurred to me that the Cambrian owned both the VoR and the W&L, each of which had road vans (the latter might even have been rebuilt as such by the Cambrian), so it had at least a few.

 

That picture looks very much like a diagram for a Cambrian Brake Van, so using that definition, then yes the Cambrian had quite a number.  They also liked full brakes on passenger trains and ran proper mixed trains, (carriages behind the wagons), until the end of 1895.

[Dunsignalling]

A "road van", as used by cultured railways, like the LBSCR and LSWR, and most narrow gauge ones, was a goods guard's van, with accommodation for "smalls", small items of goods, etc, and was used to collect and distribute/collect goods at stations with minimal facilities for the same. It is a goods vehicle, distinct from a passenger brake, which carried items consigned at higher rates, for higher speed, and better traceability.

 

I'd be surprised if the Can Dian didn't use them, given the nature of some of its routes.

 

K

 

PS: was that quick enough?

 

PPS: it just occurred to me that the Cambrian owned both the VoR and the W&L, each of which had road vans (the latter might even have been rebuilt as such by the Cambrian), so it had at least a few.

In operational terms, "Road Van" describes what the vehicle was used for, i.e. small items (but not usually parcels, which were more often sent by passenger train) requiring to be picked up or set down en route. Logically, maximum size/weight would be set at a level which one man could load or unload, that being all that would be available at some minor stations.

 

Some companies found that Including a space for the guard made the handling of such items more convenient and secure but many railways just used an ordinary van, coupled adjacent to the loco or brake van.  

 

In later times, after the purpose-built vans disappeared or became exclusively used as brake vans, goods vans (some fitted with internal shelving and marked "PARTO") would continue to cover such duties. The shelved-out ones, in particular, might be marked as restricted to a specific route or final destination to prevent them disappearing into common use.

 

John

Edited June 6, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[billbedford]

I was idly browsing my (replica) 1904 Cambrian timetable the other night, (as one does) when I noticed an advert. It offered through transit to (practically anywhere) by  goods van.

 

Of course, this was before the Advertising Standards Act, but I was surprised on two counts.

 

1. The promise of through conveyance. Wot, no tranships? Of course this may have been for near full or full loads, but no detail is offered.

 

2. The use (or promise) of vans. Popular wisdom has it that vans were pretty rare in pre-group days and that sheeted opens were the norm. But here is the Cambrian, not by any means the richest or largest of railways, offering its punters a promise of vans for their through traffic.

 

Has anyone any comments? Or can we all go and order a nice Cambrian van kit with a clear conscience?

 

 

It was relatively common to hire CCTs for the carriage of premium and perishable goods by passenger trains.

 

That there was an advert for the hire of goods vans suggests that someone had asked the Cambrian to provide this service. On the other just because there was advert doesn't mean that the service had many customers.

 

A 'van' could include CCTs and small full brakes as well as goods vans.

[Guy Rixon]

I have a lot of paperwork from the 1903 period; consignment notes and memo's chasing payment for parcels etc. One in particular is for a tin of polish from the Ronuk factory in Portslade to Wye in Kent. It shows the transhipment at Hastings. ...

 

 

Is this note passed directly between the LBSC and SECR or is it an RCH thing? I've never been clear on how far the RCH was involved in the day-to-day business.

[Guy Rixon]

 You would need some local trade directory information from that date to understand what consignments might have moved in vans. It could have been largely inward consignments: the Cambrian vans dispatched empty to collect. This was a normal practise before the 'force majeure' of WWI initiated the general adoption of the common user principle, a process which took decades to complete.

 

 

Really? I'd always understood that the originating system provided the wagon and the receiving system had to return that wagon promptly, were it not common user. Never heard of doing the other way around. If you have citations for that it would be grand.

[billbedford]

Really? I'd always understood that the originating system provided the wagon and the receiving system had to return that wagon promptly, were it not common user. Never heard of doing the other way around. If you have citations for that it would be grand.

 

 

Yes, but most companies had sales offices and agents spread throughout the country. So the Cambrian could stile the originating company even though the consignment was sent from London or Birmingham.

[Poggy1165]

The Cambrian certainly had agents in several key areas. The guy for Manchester, for example, operated out of a house in Beech Road, Chorlton-######-Hardy. (This reminds me of a discussion we had a bit back about cattle traffic and the company agents who attended cattle markets, often far from their company's own metals.)

 

(The censorship on here is getting silly. It's has obliterated part of a well-known (and currently fashionable,) Manchester suburb. I don't know how I can spell it to avoid "offence".

Edited June 6, 2017 by Poggy1165

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Really? I'd always understood that the originating system provided the wagon and the receiving system had to return that wagon promptly, were it not common user. Never heard of doing the other way around. If you have citations for that it would be grand.

 I wish I could cite the title: it was an old tome on economics found in a university library (most likely UCL), read in my youth when I could remember 'everything' and had no need to make notes. (They would probably be long lost now anyway, many relocations later.)

 

The pre-group railway system was a very competitive affair as mentioned above, and the need to offer a differentiated service drove this practise of agents off territory, with corresponding consequences of yard space taken by wagons waiting traffic, and plentiful shunt moves and empty mileage. The economist's rational hope for efficiency gains by a 'common user' scheme of using the nearest available suitable wagon to carry the load was the response to this, and enabled by wartime exigency.

 

Nonetheless, even with the common user scheme implemented a large number of wagon moves 'to collect' remained necessary. Any load requiring any specialisation for transport (from as little specialisation as 'clean ventilated vans' for fruit or vegetables), or for which there was a very variable traffic pattern, would necessarily see appropriate vehicles sent empty to the loading point to collect when the traffic was presented. (Even worse with the private owner wagon, a coal merchant's vehicles from his home yard to the specific pit from which the desired grade of coal had been ordered.)