Automatically Returning Signals To Danger

[les101975jud]

Hello

 

I am involved in a large DCC layout which uses an ECoS Command Station. Up until recently this has served us very well as we fully utilise the track diagram panels to set routes etc. However, we have recently installed semaphore signals using MegaPoints Controller Boards. The current set up is great at setting turnouts and setting signals as a complete route but it would be even better if a train entering a block automatically switches the preceding block's signals back to danger. Consequently, I am turning my mind towards a complete review of our DCC set up.

 

I have been impressed with the Black Z21 and its ability to use smart devices to operate various aspects of the layout. Taking that as a way forward I would then like to connect the Z21 to a computer using some sort of appropriate train control software. If I go down this route I could then install occupancy detectors which I am hoping could enable us to automatically return signals to danger as a train passes them. Is My plan feasible? I do not want to automate everything. All loco control would stay with our operators as would some local turnout control.

Regards Les

[Pete the Elaner]

The best way to implement occupancy detectors is to feed each block via a detection module. The occupancy is detected by a current draw. This requires isolating each block from each other. It may not be practical to retro-fit this to an existing layout.

An alternative is to use infra-red detection but this means installing something on the layout then having to disguise it.

 

Heathcote electronics do some useful looking products for signal control, but I have not had a detailed look to see what would be required for this. If you want to have a go at building something yourself, you may want to consider joining MERG.

[Nigelcliffe]

Yes the signalling you describe is possible.   I'd do it using the JMRI software, which is free, though there are other software packages which will do what you describe. 

( I wrote a tutorial on UK signalling a few years ago which is on the JMRI website, its still basically accurate, but there have been a lot of software improvements in JMRI since I wrote it). 

 

- Nigel

[two tone green]

Hi les,
 
Which ever DCC system you use to get the signals to retrurn to danger after a train passes or moving up a few notches to PC control they all require one thing, some form of train detection.
 
Current detection, optical such as infra red, reed switches, other methods. All offer some form of detection but some are limited in what they can do. A lot of them can be described as spot detection, that is when an item of rolling stock is in one particular position on the train. Could even be as small as a spot one or two millimetres in size.
 
Current detection works as it says by detection current draw in a section of track so irrespective of the length of that track any item placed on it in any position will show that section as occupied. Resistors across wheels will solve the problem such as on trucks that don't have lights or a motor.
 
Where is all this going, detection. Ok, you have an ECoS which is more than capable of handing all sorts of detection mentioned above and of course if fully capable of being interfaced to a Pc and train control software such as JMRI, Train Controller to name two but there are lots more.
 
So basically why change your system when you already have a fully fledge DCC system that can do all the things you want to do. Even basic things such as change yoir signals back to danger after a train has passed.
 
A simple reed switch and the ECoS Detector Standard will do what you want. In fact it will control 16 signals or other items.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digital-control/ecosdetector/ecosdetector-standard/
 
I use them connected to the rather nice DCC Concept Levers to manually control my points and signals if I don't want to use the ECoS touch screen or RR&Co Train Controller software.
 
If you want current detection then again ESU supplies the current detection version of the ECoS detector.
 
Have a look here to give you an example of what can be done.

 

The ECoS is very powerful and do all you are asking of it.

[two tone green]

This may help as well.

[Phil S]

To cope with 'One-person operation' of my layout (although I DO have some door-opening stock - they are not in Southern Livery) ... I too like the idea that a signal is automatically eset to danger about 10 seconds after it is set to Go/clear.      This helps follow actual practice in the green Off only being given when the train is actually ready to depart, so as not to block other routes due to depart .....   although after a delay, a signaller can reset a signal to stop ... in reality needing safety chaecks not needed on a model layout!

 

If computer- controlled software can detect that an event has happened - eg Platform1 Starter to Green ... then it can be set to make an event 10 seconds later which returns is to Stop ... and if that had already happened, it is of no consequence being re-sent.  Thos assumes, of course, that the advantage of wiring all signals to be dcc controlled has been taken !

 

in independant hardware - A MERG Hector detector / signal controller has a 4 seond pulse option, as I recall, but other physical timing modules are available for delays inc. Heathcote

[pctrainman]

There are several ways to implent detection and each has it's pluses and minuses , but what you want is very achievable in a variety of ways , I use a Lenz system with DCC4PC Railcom readers ( for occupancy and DCC ) controlled by Traincontroller Silver with signals ( 11 2 aspect Colour lights and 5 Semaphores and 2 electromagnetic uncouplers  ) controlled by 3 Arduino nanos mounted on shields plus the neccesary DCC to Arduino Interface boards which are fairly easy to construct yourself , i'm still fine tuning it but am now quite close to what I want .

[les101975jud]

Thank you for all the replies to my question. Very helpful. Regards Les

[two tone green]

So what conclusion have you come to.

[les101975jud]

So what conclusion have you come to.

Two Tone Green

I have had a busy week trying to work all this out. My current view is to keep the ECoS 50200 as it is a piece of kit I really like. The only issue I had with it was that we use the ESU 1st generation radio controllers. These have been OK but as they are a few years old are in need of replacement. The ESU second generation radio controllers are a bit pricey for us as we need six of them. That was why I started looking at the Z21. However, I have also looked at Railroad and Co TrainController software as you have suggested and it seems I could hook up the the ECoS to my PC and also have access to a web browser that could also support iPhones and iPads through its SmartHand product. Thus all my needs will be met using this solution.

 

With regard to block control, TrainController will also allow me to set signals in the preceding block back to danger as well as giving a degree of future proofing the layout.

 

So, thanks to the help of you and others it seems I now have a way forward. Thank you once again for all our help.

 

Regards Les

[St. Simon]

 it would be even better if a train entering a block automatically switches the preceding block's signals back to danger

 

Hi,

 

Whilst I can't give too much help on the technology behind it, but I can offer some sort of advice on the signalling principles that you'll have to think about.

 

If the layout has Semaphore Signal worked under Absolute Block, then the signal should be replaced to danger once the signaller has observed the tail lamp on the rear of the train, so the actual point at which the signal is replaced depends on where the signal to be replaced is in relation to the box.

 

If the layout has Colour Light Signals worked under Track Circuit Block or similar, then there are 4 types of replacement:

 

1. If the signal is a normal controlled signal (i.e. pulled off by the signaller), then it would be replaced as soon as the train passes the 'replacement joint', this is normally 5m beyond  the signal.
2. If the signal is an automatic signal (i.e. controlled purely by the passage of trains) without a separate berth and overlap track, the signal is replaced when the train passes over the overlap joint, normally 180m beyond the signal.
3. If the signal requires Last Wheel Replacement (i.e. for shunt signals that have propelling moves past them), then the signal isn't replaced until the train has left the berth track circuit.
4. If the signal requires Delayed Replacement (i.e. at a station where the train has to stand straddling the signal, think Liskeard in the Up Direction), then the point at which the signal is replaced is usually dependent on an operational requirement.

I hope that this helps.

 

Simon

[Suzie]

The ECoS has an S88 feedback port which means you have quite a choice of detector hardware.

 

It is well worth considering JMRI - you will find this is probably easier to set up for signalling than R&Co and worth a try for free before you spend a lot of money.

[Dungrange]

If the layout has Colour Light Signals worked under Track Circuit Block or similar, then there are 4 types of replacement:

 

1. If the signal is a normal controlled signal (i.e. pulled off by the signaller), then it would be replaced as soon as the train passes the 'replacement joint', this is normally 5m beyond  the signal.
2. If the signal is an automatic signal (i.e. controlled purely by the passage of trains) without a separate berth and overlap track, the signal is replaced when the train passes over the overlap joint, normally 180m beyond the signal.
3. If the signal requires Last Wheel Replacement (i.e. for shunt signals that have propelling moves past them), then the signal isn't replaced until the train has left the berth track circuit.
4. If the signal requires Delayed Replacement (i.e. at a station where the train has to stand straddling the signal, think Liskeard in the Up Direction), then the point at which the signal is replaced is usually dependent on an operational requirement.

 

I'm hoping to do something like this as well, but unlike the original poster, don't currently use DCC (although I plan to).  My intention is to arrange detection using current draw, which means ensuring that I use insulated fish plates when laying track to have functional track circuit blocks.

 

My layout will be a terminal station, circa 2007, with mainly diesel multiple unit operation and only the platform starter (departure) signals will be on the visible part of the layout.  My intention is that these can only be set to proceed if:

1. The departure route is set (ie interlocked with the turnout motors); and
2. The block(s) in advance (ie beyond the signal) is/are clear (no stock detected).

There will be no signal box on the layout itself - I'm assuming that signals are controlled from a power box tens of mile away.

 

I can't see a need for trains to straddle any signal, so I think I can rule out the need for delayed replacement.  I assume when you refer to automatic signals, these are signals between blocks on plain track that are not interlocked with point and crossing work.  That is, there will never be automatic signals within a terminal station, where the signal aspect has to be interlocked with the point and crossing work.

 

I assume therefore that means I am either looking at my signals being 'normal controlled signals' or 'last wheel replacement signals'.  I assume that for both of these scenarios, the relevant trigger is the 'replacement joint', five metres beyond the signal (which is what matters most to me at this stage).  The principal difference being that for the 'normal controlled signal' the signal reset is triggered by detecting current draw in the block in advance (ie passed the signal) - ie when the first axle draws current, while with the 'last wheel replacement signal' the signal reset is triggered by the moment that the last axle draws current from my platform blocks.

 

Is my understanding correct?

[St. Simon]

I'm hoping to do something like this as well, but unlike the original poster, don't currently use DCC (although I plan to).  My intention is to arrange detection using current draw, which means ensuring that I use insulated fish plates when laying track to have functional track circuit blocks.

 

My layout will be a terminal station, circa 2007, with mainly diesel multiple unit operation and only the platform starter (departure) signals will be on the visible part of the layout.  My intention is that these can only be set to proceed if:

1. The departure route is set (ie interlocked with the turnout motors); and
2. The block(s) in advance (ie beyond the signal) is/are clear (no stock detected).

There will be no signal box on the layout itself - I'm assuming that signals are controlled from a power box tens of mile away.

 

I can't see a need for trains to straddle any signal, so I think I can rule out the need for delayed replacement.  I assume when you refer to automatic signals, these are signals between blocks on plain track that are not interlocked with point and crossing work.  That is, there will never be automatic signals within a terminal station, where the signal aspect has to be interlocked with the point and crossing work.

 

I assume therefore that means I am either looking at my signals being 'normal controlled signals' or 'last wheel replacement signals'.  I assume that for both of these scenarios, the relevant trigger is the 'replacement joint', five metres beyond the signal (which is what matters most to me at this stage).  The principal difference being that for the 'normal controlled signal' the signal reset is triggered by detecting current draw in the block in advance (ie passed the signal) - ie when the first axle draws current, while with the 'last wheel replacement signal' the signal reset is triggered by the moment that the last axle draws current from my platform blocks.

 

Is my understanding correct?

 

Yes, I think your understanding is correct, in your circumstances, I doubt that you'll need last wheel replacement (normally used for propelling shunt moves where the driver is at the rear of the formation), but either way the replacement joint is normally 5m beyond the signal.

 

For interest the way that I have implemented last wheel replacement in my interlocking is that the berth track circuit is required to be occupied for the signal to be pulled off, so when the track circuit is unoccupied, the signal reverts to red.

 

By the way, you must be one of the few people who is modelling a proper power box which is miles from the model, and is thinking about the signalling along with the track work, which is a good way to think!

 

Simon

[les101975jud]

The more I read about and see about TrainController the more I like it. I do have one more question though. Does the software contain British home and distant signal icons as opposed to the colour light ones I have seen on YouTube demos? Alternatively, can these be created with the icon editor? The help I have received on this topic so far has been brilliant - thank you.

 

Regards Les

[two tone green]

Hi Les,
 
Yes, you can sesign shapes, signals etc in the icon editor. You draw the off state and on state and RR&Co does the rest.
 
As for 'last wheel counting' it does have more uses than is instantly obvious when using the software. Route release is one that avoids points moving under the train and when propelling stock across routes than can be reserved by other trains again resulting in points moving under trains.
 
All this does tie in with signalling so its important.
 
If you are thinking of going for RR&Co, don't go for the bronze version as you will out grow it very quickly. .
 
This a poor quality video from my old 4mm RR&Co controlled layout. Everything you see going on is fully automatic but of course you can drive trains whilst the software does everything else.
 
Its up to you what level of automation you go for from full manual to semi automatic to full auto and being a train spotter watching every thing go on around you.

[les101975jud]

two tone green

 

I had a sneaking suspicion you would know the answer to my question. TrainController Gold is my choice due to items like icon editor and perhaps functionality, for the future, I don't even know about yet. Yesterday, I ordered my first block detector. I chose an 8 channel LDT to try it out with a demo. Thanks very much for all your help.

 

Regards Les

[beast66606]

two tone green

 

I had a sneaking suspicion you would know the answer to my question. TrainController Gold is my choice due to items like icon editor and perhaps functionality, for the future, I don't even know about yet. Yesterday, I ordered my first block detector. I chose an 8 channel LDT to try it out with a demo. Thanks very much for all your help.

 

Regards Les

 

I used RR&Co to simulate an NX panel, with pretty much all the prototype practices implemented.  We used Digtrax kit with BD11 (iirc) detectors.

[two tone green]

I use Gold as well and if you can afford it offers the best options.

 

In my OO scale days I used LDT products and found them very good. Block detection and signal decoders all work well with the software.