RMweb Premium Edward Posted June 6, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 6, 2017 Having wired up 5 points with bonded stock rails so that the frog polarity would be controlled by DCC Concepts cobalt IP Digital Motors, I fitted them to the track work, with insulating joiners at the frog ends. Then fitted and wired the motors being careful to use the same terminals IE my "black" to Term1, the "red" wire to Term2 & the frog feed to Term3. (The Red/Black wires are the track feeds ,of course. ) Then programmed in the Accessory numbers. Tested & all worked correctly. Decided I should check the track feed before putting the board on its legs. Then discovered that only the frog on the "wrong" side was getting any voltage. All the the rest of the track was giving a reading of 13.8 volts (AC). After usual panic, and trying various things, suddenly hit on swapping over the red and black wires to the motor terminals. This seems to work and the correct side of the frog is now live. I've yet to try a loco on it as the board is still held securely in a vertical position in my trusty Workmate. And the 3 way asymmetric point doesn't have any readings at all. Sorry it's all a bit longwinded but my question is I thought the IP motor would automatically choose which side to make live. ? It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the manual.So is there a proper rule to say which way round the feeds should go? A second question is what are the steps to program the motor to change direction 197 with the NCE power cab? Somebody here gave the steps for giving it the Accessory Number which I printed off and works a treat (but you must let the Power Cab to fully power up each time). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Edward Sorry it's all a bit longwinded but my question is I thought the IP motor would automatically choose which side to make live. ? You have to determine which track feed goes to which terminal on the cobalt This will change depending which way the cobalt faces The 2 drawings on the LHS show the cobalts facing in different directions. The top example shows red going to term A whereas in the bottom example the red goes to Term B ( Term A & B refer to term 1 & 2 on the cobalt but I am not sure if A to 1 & B to 2 or A to 2 & B to 1) It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the manual. So is there a proper rule to say which way round the feeds should go? Short answer Maybe Longer answer, looking at the point from the blade end, left rail is A & right rail is B & the point motor mounted as shown in the top drawing then A should go to the same terminal every time(I'm not sure which) If the cobalt is mounted as in the bottom drawing then A goes to the opposite terminal To test if the cobalt is wired correctly refer to the drawings on the RHS As for the 3 way point & the NCE I don't know either well enough to help Hope this helps John 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 7, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2017 Having wired up 5 points with bonded stock rails so that the frog polarity would be controlled by DCC Concepts cobalt IP Digital Motors, I fitted them to the track work, with insulating joiners at the frog ends. Then fitted and wired the motors being careful to use the same terminals IE my "black" to Term1, the "red" wire to Term2 & the frog feed to Term3. (The Red/Black wires are the track feeds ,of course. ) Then programmed in the Accessory numbers. Tested & all worked correctly. Decided I should check the track feed before putting the board on its legs. Then discovered that only the frog on the "wrong" side was getting any voltage. All the the rest of the track was giving a reading of 13.8 volts (AC). After usual panic, and trying various things, suddenly hit on swapping over the red and black wires to the motor terminals. This seems to work and the correct side of the frog is now live. I've yet to try a loco on it as the board is still held securely in a vertical position in my trusty Workmate. And the 3 way asymmetric point doesn't have any readings at all. Sorry it's all a bit longwinded but my question is I thought the IP motor would automatically choose which side to make live. ? It doesn't seem to be mentioned in the manual.So is there a proper rule to say which way round the feeds should go? A second question is what are the steps to program the motor to change direction 197 with the NCE power cab? Somebody here gave the steps for giving it the Accessory Number which I printed off and works a treat (but you must let the Power Cab to fully power up each time). As John KS diagram shows, it depends entirely on which way around the point motor is. So reversing the red & black wires is the correct solution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pctrainman Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I had endless problems with a 3 way asymetric till I fitted a frog juicer and it's worked fine ever since . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Edward Posted June 7, 2017 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2017 Thanks to John ks and to kevinims for the answer!! Oh dear pctrainman, it looks like I'm going to have a few problems with the 3-way. I'm off to fortify myself with a nice cup of tea before having a go. Anybody any idea how to do the 197 code to the point motor? Many thanks Edward Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted June 7, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2017 Thanks to John ks and to kevinims for the answer!! Oh dear pctrainman, it looks like I'm going to have a few problems with the 3-way. I'm off to fortify myself with a nice cup of tea before having a go. Anybody any idea how to do the 197 code to the point motor? Many thanks Edward Are you using an NCE PowerCab? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted June 7, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2017 This post might help when using a PowerCab (or any other NCE throttles. Substitute 197 for 198 as required and you shouldn't need to set the accessory address a second time. Brian Lambert's website provides a guide for dealing with three way points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted June 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 8, 2017 Thanks to John ks and to kevinims for the answer!! Oh dear pctrainman, it looks like I'm going to have a few problems with the 3-way. I'm off to fortify myself with a nice cup of tea before having a go. Anybody any idea how to do the 197 code to the point motor? Many thanks Edward Using 197, you have to completely remove the power after sending the command. It does not need re-addressing afterwards - even though some instructions do say so. As per the link in the post above You haven't said which pointwork you are using. Peco Electrofrog? Treat the 3-way as two separate points. Do one frog at a time and test. If it shorts, swap the DCC feed wires to the motor - as per your ordinary points. The frog switch in the Digital IP is exactly that - a switch. It isn't a frog juicer type device. Remember that wiring a point for DCC is no more different than wiring for DC. Either way, you have to have correct polarity to the frog. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Edward Posted June 9, 2017 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 9, 2017 You haven't said which pointwork you are using. Peco Electrofrog? Treat the 3-way as two separate points. Do one frog at a time and test. If it shorts, swap the DCC feed wires to the motor - as per your ordinary points. The frog switch in the Digital IP is exactly that - a switch. It isn't a frog juicer type device. Remember that wiring a point for DCC is no more different than wiring for DC. Either way, you have to have correct polarity to the frog. Cheers, Mick Thanks for the reply Mick. Yes it's a Peco code 25 Electro frog. Spent some time yesterday on it but still having dead spots in the stock rails. I think I am going to take it off the track and resolder the droppers etc. Ah I thought/hoped it might be a frog juicer! Understood about turning off the power after the reprogram. (...And so hefting my trusty soldering iron off I go again! But slight delay while I have to investigate buying a new bed apparently. ) Regards Edward Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 This link shows how peco wire the 3 way point John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Also if you are having issues with dead spots then you should ensure you are not relying on the switch rail to carry the power, bond it like making two separate points "DCC friendly" as per Brian Lambert wiring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinB Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Did you ever manage to sort this? I’ve been fitting Cobalt IP Digital point motors and have also had issues with shorts, I’m using Peco HOm trackwork and so the space for the modification is limited. I’ve also been wiring them as you would for DC so that I can keep the accessories on a separate Bus and noticed that even with just having the common connected only, I get a short on with some points/motors, though not all. If I disconnect the feed to the frog, the issue goes away....bizarre. I will I’ll try wiring the motors up on the track bus and see if I still get the same issue with the frog them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 I suspect it you get a short when the frog wire is connected, the problem is that you have the common and return wires the wrong way round and should switch the wires going to the A and B terminals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, MartinB said: Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. Did you ever manage to sort this? I’ve been fitting Cobalt IP Digital point motors and have also had issues with shorts, I’m using Peco HOm trackwork and so the space for the modification is limited. I’ve also been wiring them as you would for DC so that I can keep the accessories on a separate Bus and noticed that even with just having the common connected only, I get a short on with some points/motors, though not all. If I disconnect the feed to the frog, the issue goes away....bizarre. I will I’ll try wiring the motors up on the track bus and see if I still get the same issue with the frog them You are taking the feeds for the frog switching from the trackbus? I hope you are as you need to do that with a separate track and accessory bus and must not use the frog output on the motor. as said if you are getting a short the track wires are the wrong way around, 2 sec job to swap them round and cure the problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinB Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 Thanks for the replies. i have 5 of the motors in a row next to each other. 3 are ok and 2 give problems, whilst all being orientated in the same direction and wired the same. The accessory bus and track bus are separate. I noticed the issue when verifying the polarity of the track feeds and initially went looking for shorts elsewhere. I will have another look in the next day or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, MartinB said: The accessory bus and track bus are separate. That's good practise, but I understand that if you are using the 'frog' output on the Digital IP rather than the separate single pole changeover switch then the frog will be powered via your accessory bus while your stock rails will be on your track bus. This means that when a train passes over the turnout, you will get current flowing between the two buses, which sort of negates the benefit of two separate buses. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinB Posted September 22, 2019 Share Posted September 22, 2019 I think I have tracked down my issue to a couple of damaged insulating fishplate after undoing several soldered wires I’ll redo the wiring tomorrow and see if it’s resolved or not. thanks for the help gents..... much appreciated Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Edward Posted September 23, 2019 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2019 Interesting to see the problem raised again. As the OP I'm very pleased to report that the layout now has over 50 Cobalt IP motors and after following the advice given above, no issues with polarity. 15 of the motors are controlled by the Alpha switches via the Cobalt Encoder Units and the rest by the Powercab using direct accy key and some macros. Only a track bus is used which feeds each motor terminals 1 & 2. The frog wire from each point frog goes to the Terminal 3. Recently I have fitted centre off passing micro switches to the fiddle yard points; just to make life easier but these are in addition to the accy button! I'm aware that there could be a potential problem in not having a circuit breaker but not sure how to proceed on that so have "parked" it for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwm3110 Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Could i resurrect this topic as I have a similar issue with a Cobalt IP digital motor. This one is a simple r/h turnout which for unknown reasons now has a dead frog when the turnout is set to the r/h line. Initially this started as a short and the frog was showing wrong polarity and anything running through it immediately shorted out. I tried reprogramming to no avail. I also swapped the input to the motor - that didnt cure the problem but after I put the input wires back to how they were the frog changed from wrong polarity to dead. The current status is therefore that running straight line the polarity is correct and no issues, but when switched to the r/h line its dead. Longer locos will run through it but something like a shunter with small wheelbase stalls. Any thoughts?? Do i need to reprogramme, if so with what CVs. Power is NCE procab 5 amps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 36 minutes ago, robertwm3110 said: Could i resurrect this topic as I have a similar issue with a Cobalt IP digital motor. This one is a simple r/h turnout which for unknown reasons now has a dead frog when the turnout is set to the r/h line. Initially this started as a short and the frog was showing wrong polarity and anything running through it immediately shorted out. I tried reprogramming to no avail. I also swapped the input to the motor - that didnt cure the problem but after I put the input wires back to how they were the frog changed from wrong polarity to dead. The current status is therefore that running straight line the polarity is correct and no issues, but when switched to the r/h line its dead. Longer locos will run through it but something like a shunter with small wheelbase stalls. Any thoughts?? Do i need to reprogramme, if so with what CVs. Power is NCE procab 5 amps. Sounds like contact failures on the Cobalt motor. You could swap to using the other switch on the Cobalt, for which you'll need two wires in from the track bus, and one out to the frog. Dismantling motor may allow the contacts to be cleaned, but you're well outside any warranty attempting that. And they'll probably fail again sometime after cleaning. 5 amps is a lot of current. Do you have circuit breakers to the layout to set the current at a lower level, or are you putting a potential 5A everywhere ? - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertwm3110 Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 Thanks Nigel, its 5 amps because i am running 0 gauge although there is a seperate bus for the 8 point motors I have which has a circuit breaker set at 2.5 amps. I dont want to start taking the motor in bits and frankly not confident of what I am looking at - dont these have a lifetime guarantee though? note your point on using the other switch......so that would mean leaving the existing feed from the accessory bus to 1 and 2, but what am I feeding in to from the track bus....is that 4, 5 and 6, with one wire to the frog??. Which one to the frog. Thanks your comments though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted May 2, 2020 Share Posted May 2, 2020 19 minutes ago, robertwm3110 said: Thanks Nigel, its 5 amps because i am running 0 gauge although there is a seperate bus for the 8 point motors I have which has a circuit breaker set at 2.5 amps. I dont want to start taking the motor in bits and frankly not confident of what I am looking at - dont these have a lifetime guarantee though? note your point on using the other switch......so that would mean leaving the existing feed from the accessory bus to 1 and 2, but what am I feeding in to from the track bus....is that 4, 5 and 6, with one wire to the frog??. Which one to the frog. Thanks your comments though Guarantee length - I have no idea. Other switch contacts - look at the DCC Concepts manual for the motor. One of those terminals is "common" and goes to the frog, the others to the track. As to which rail to which contact, if you cannot deduce it from the manual, try the connections to the track and test with a mutlmeter with no track power. The frog should be connected to the correct rail for the blade position. Then move the motor to other position, and check with meter that the frog is now correct for the new position. Note that your accessory bus is somewhat compromised electrically because of using the Cobalt built in simple frog switch. The Frog output wire is connected to the accessory bus, not the track bus. Whether its protected by the circuit breaker depends on motor position and which bus wire is protected by the breaker (or does your breaker protect both?). I'm not a fan of DCC Concepts "we think its simple, but prone to be a confusing once one has an accessory bus" single frog output contacts. Fewer problems if one wires the frog onto a change over contact switch from the track bus immediately beside the turnout. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted May 3, 2020 Share Posted May 3, 2020 As Nigel said you may have damaged one of the switch contacts in the Cobalt With O Scale I would expect the current draw of the locos to be much more than OO scale & the possibility of burning out contacts to be greater It is possible to use a relay to power the frog, the benefit is a reduced current in the Cobalt contacts (disadvantage, more cost & wiring) The diagram should be fairly self explanatory After looking at the Cobalt manual I believe the numbers on the Cobalt are correct The Diode (1N4004 or similar) is used to suppress back EMF from the coil & while not mandatory it will prolong the life of the contacts in the Cobalt John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Horner Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 On 02/05/2020 at 17:24, robertwm3110 said: Could i resurrect this topic as I have a similar issue with a Cobalt IP digital motor. This one is a simple r/h turnout which for unknown reasons now has a dead frog when the turnout is set to the r/h line. Initially this started as a short and the frog was showing wrong polarity and anything running through it immediately shorted out. I tried reprogramming to no avail. I also swapped the input to the motor - that didnt cure the problem but after I put the input wires back to how they were the frog changed from wrong polarity to dead. The current status is therefore that running straight line the polarity is correct and no issues, but when switched to the r/h line its dead. Longer locos will run through it but something like a shunter with small wheelbase stalls. Any thoughts?? Do i need to reprogramme, if so with what CVs. Power is NCE procab 5 amps. Could I ask if you found a solution to this. I’m experiencing the same problem with one motor. Works fine on one lead off the point but shorts the frog on the other. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted September 25, 2021 Share Posted September 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Chris Horner said: Could I ask if you found a solution to this. I’m experiencing the same problem with one motor. Works fine on one lead off the point but shorts the frog on the other. Thanks Sounds like the switch contacts inside the motor have failed. There are work-arounds, by using the other contacts on the motor if they are not needed for other purposes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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