LSWR starter bracket signal

[PeteN92]

I am looking to build a bracket signal for the starter signal on the main platform and the bay starter. My layout is set on the north cornwall railway so I would need LSWR signals. I've had a look on wizard models site for parts from MSE as this has been suggested elsewhere on the forum, however I am open to other suggestions.

I cant work out exactly what I would need to build something along the lines of this: 

 

 

I believe the purpose of this signal at Halwill junction reflects what I am looking for on my own layout the only difference being the bay and main platform are the opposite way round. 

 

Any suggestions please?

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Londontram]

The Ratio LNER lattice post signals kit could supply the parts to build something along these lines. Usual disclaimer no connection etc. but I believe the kit contains the parts to build all four of these so could be mixed and matched to get what you want.

[Oldddudders]

These are Southern Railway signals, rather than LSWR, which were usually lower quadrant. I suspect MSE has some components to suit.

[RailWest]

>>> I am looking to build a bracket signal for the starter signal on the main platform and the bay starter.....

 

I'm not  clear whether you mean one bracket signal, carrying two dolls for the two starters, or a 2-doll bracket on each platform? If the latter, then - out of curiosity - why does your layout need them? If the former, then why a bracket rather than two separate posts?

 

>>>My layout is set on the north cornwall railway so I would need LSWR signals...

 

Not necessarily - in what period is your layout set? If anything from the early-1930s onwards, then you could always assume that the originals had been replaced by SR designs (exactly what happened with those in your picture of Halwill Junction).

[PeteN92]

>>> I am looking to build a bracket signal for the starter signal on the main platform and the bay starter.....

 

I'm not  clear whether you mean one bracket signal, carrying two dolls for the two starters, or a 2-doll bracket on each platform? If the latter, then - out of curiosity - why does your layout need them? If the former, then why a bracket rather than two separate posts?

 

>>>My layout is set on the north cornwall railway so I would need LSWR signals...

 

Not necessarily - in what period is your layout set? If anything from the early-1930s onwards, then you could always assume that the originals had been replaced by SR designs (exactly what happened with those in your picture of Halwill Junction).

Chris you have read my mind midtyping a reply. 

 

Indeed I mean  one bracket signal carrying two dolls.

 

Interesting so although the railway would have been initially LSWR once under the southern and subsequently BR the signalling would have likely changed to the standard pattern.

 

My layout is se within British Rail ownership up to the end of steam so it seems I could get away with this.   

 

I had contemplated the two posts as then I could just buy a Dapol SR lattice starter for the bay and a SR lattice platform starter for the main running line to be mounted on the platform with the added benefit of working signals.  Would this have been a common arrangement however?

 

I plan to use the bay mostly for parcel traffic however occasionally it will be used for extra passenger services hence the need for it to be properly signalled. 

 

Cheers

 

Pete 

[RailWest]

>>>Interesting so although the railway would have been initially LSWR once under the southern and subsequently BR the signalling would have likely changed to the standard pattern.

 

No one would bother to spend money 'changing the signals' unless they needed to. Reasons might include:- alterations to the layout, problems with sighting, damage to posts or arms, general rot/rust leading to the need for replacements etc. Quite a few L&SWR locations west of Salisbury retained some LQ arms up until they closed in the 1960s. Most of those were on lattice posts, but even some with wooden posts survived.

 

Where there was platform with faces either side (eg Main and Bay) then certainly a single 2-doll bracket was quite common - Sidmouth is a good example, which kept a wooden post to the end IIRC by with arms changed to UQ. Conversely, Swanage had 2-doll bracket at one time, but this was changed to 2 separate signals in later years. 

 

>>>I plan to use the bay mostly for parcel traffic however occasionally it will be used for extra passenger services hence the need for it to be properly signalled. ...

 

Well, you need 'proper signalling' whatever it's used for :-) But what is 'proper' may vary....

 

A layout track might help us to give more specific advice.

[Stephen Freeman]

Signal at front Ex LSWR

 

This is a former LSWR Bracket with replacement UQ arms (SR). As the arms are corrugated, this indicates a fairly early replacement of the LQ Stevens arms by the Southern Railway).

 

The exact pattern of bracket shown in the photo is not currently available as an etch, so that would have to be scratch-built. However I am toying with the possibility of rectifying that situation, based on the fact that I keep having to build the things but don't hold your breath on that, it may happen later this year. The bracket post is not a problem as that is available  from Alan Gibson (workshop).

 

Signal at rear - pure SR

 

The main support post is built from rail, so you could actual use rail or the MSE whitemetal castings. The bracket is probably a standard  SR one, so should be available from MSE or AG. If you wanted a LSWR version you'd need to replace the arms with LQ and the main post with a lattice one.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Stephen Freeman

[RailWest]

>>>This is a former LSWR Bracket with replacement UQ arms (SR). As the arms are corrugated, this indicates a fairly early replacement of the LQ Stevens arms by the Southern Railway).....

 

Both of the brackets were originally 'pure' L&SWR wooden posts and LQ arms. The replacements also had LQ arms, installed sometime in the 1920s. Whether the lattice bracket was actually installed by the L&SWR or SR would depend on the precise date, and if done by the SR then it might have been second-hand ex-L&SWR or else new SR. There were quite a few signals which looked L&SWR, but were actually new work by the SR.

[Oldddudders]

Signal at front Ex LSWR

 

This is a former LSWR Bracket with replacement UQ arms (SR). As the arms are corrugated, this indicates a fairly early replacement of the LQ Stevens arms by the Southern Railway).

 

The exact pattern of bracket shown in the photo is not currently available as an etch, so that would have to be scratch-built. However I am toying with the possibility of rectifying that situation, based on the fact that I keep having to build the things but don't hold your breath on that, it may happen later this year. The bracket post is not a problem as that is available  from Alan Gibson (workshop).

 

Signal at rear - pure SR

 

The main support post is built from rail, so you could actual use rail or the MSE whitemetal castings. The bracket is probably a standard  SR one, so should be available from MSE or AG. If you wanted a LSWR version you'd need to replace the arms with LQ and the main post with a lattice one.

I would be interested in models of those very signals, for my version of Halwill Junction. I won't hold my breath, as you suggest, but I hope this gives you confidence that an etch might pay for itself.

[Stephen Freeman]

I would be interested in models of those very signals, for my version of Halwill Junction. I won't hold my breath, as you suggest, but I hope this gives you confidence that an etch might pay for itself.

Hi,

I'll bear it in mind especially as I know of another signal that will be needing such a bracket fairly soon, although in this case the signal will be floor mounted and after scratch building two, the novelty is beginning to wear off..

[Roger Sunderland]

All the parts to build this signal are available from MSE and/or Alan Gibson. If you are going to have a go yourself I recommend Steve Hewits thread, on here, "Semaphore signals, 4mm mainly". Huge source of information and inspiration.

[bécasse]

If your bracket signal is just carrying separate starters for the bay and main line, then the two posts should be of equal length as with this example formerly at Ventnor (IoW) http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3393700. The two bracket signals at Halwill Junction illustrated in the original post (#1) are both junction signals.

[Stephen Freeman]

All the parts to build this signal are available from MSE and/or Alan Gibson. If you are going to have a go yourself I recommend Steve Hewits thread, on here, "Semaphore signals, 4mm mainly". Huge source of information and inspiration.

Not true! Neither offer the bracket shown at the front of the photo, if they did I would have used it! Alan Gibson(Workshop) does have a bracket of similar design but shorter (4MM66) 9ft bracket. (This is of similar configuration to the Ratio one shown). I have an Alan Gibson (workshop) etch before me and having built the one based on Seaton Junction (see photo) know the difference .

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Stephen Freeman

[PeteN92]

OK here is a diagram of where I need the signals

 

 

My thought process is that potentially if I can use a bracket signal with the two starters it would be placed in position 3 on the diagram or possibly even 1.

 

However if I was to use two separate posts and signals they would be located at positions 1 and 2. It's only due to the fact that the starter for the bay at position 2 would have to be pushed right up to where the point is that makes me hesitant to have this set up.

 

Or would this be alright?

 

Suggestions welcome for other locations

 

Cheers Pete

[RailWest]

In essence, either starting signal should not be so close to any point in advance of it such that a train standing at the signal fouls the converging road. Allowing for the scale of the drawing, then (2) is too close also and would need to be further back.

 

In theory one might argue that (3) is no good, as the bay starting would not be protecting against the exit from the yard.  Admittedly at places like Sidmouth there was the equivalent of (3), with two trailing connections in rear of it, so maybe that would be OK. Alternatively you could put your bracket at (1), probably again a little further back so that the bay arm protects against the yard exit, but then you are 'artificially' constraining the length of train that you can hold in the main platform.

[PeteN92]

Hi chris , 

 

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by the bay signal would not be protecting against the exit from the yard. 

 

I plan for everything within the yard to  be worked by hand points and then have the  trap point there in order to protect anything unauthorised coming out the yard. Id probably have a shunt signal on the exit from the yard too or would this not be sufficient to signal trains out of the yard?

 

Are you suggesting that the bay starter could be dual purpose and be  cleared for either the bay road or the yard exit? 

 

Regards 

 

Pete 

Edited June 9, 2017 by PeteN92

[RailWest]

Movements in/out of the yard could be controlled by ground shunt signals OK.

 

If a train is standing on the Bay road at signal (3), then it would be standing over the yard access point. This prevents you signalling trains into/out of the yard while the bay line is occupied, unless you have a signal (2) sufficiently well back from that point.

[PeteN92]

Gotcha, essentially position 3 is too far ahead allowing the  train to foul the points. 

 

That's not what I want the bay has been designed to fit 2 coaches plus a loco and not foul the points so your saying I would want the signal within the limits of the bay. 

 

If I was to take the two posts options rather than a bracket signal where would the best locations really be in order to accommodate both signals? 

 

Could I potentially use position 3 or even a bit further up for the main starter therefore the loco is hanging off the end of the platform  and then use position 1 for the bay starter?

 

Do signals need to be on the right hand side facing left ? or if they were placed on the left would that create a complication of understanding which one is for which road?

 

Cheers Pete 

Edited June 10, 2017 by PeteN92

[Stephen Freeman]

A bracket at position 1 would be my choice. As to design, being BR(S), you could have either ex-LSWR design as per the rear signal in the photo or a rail-built SR one.

[PeteN92]

Just browsing through alan Gibson's catalogue  and found these, thoughts or experience? 

 

4MM84 Southern Large Base Lattice with Southern type

Bracket and Lattice dolls 

 

The picture for this appears to be very similar to what I originally posted

 

or

 

4MM90 SR 12” Base Lattice with balanced bracket and

lattice dolls

 

 

The picture for this one appears to show two distant signals, not sure if that is what your forced to make however. Plus its a balanced bracket.

 

 

It also states:

"These kits are more of a collection of the materials required to make up in to the signals shown rather than a definitive kit – no

comprehensive instructions are supplied although basic guidance is given."

 

And at £20 could be worth a shout if suitable??

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited June 10, 2017 by PeteN92

[micknich2003]

Type drawing of a typical ex L&SWRly Bracket Signal.

[Stephen Freeman]

Type drawing of a typical ex L&SWRly Bracket Signal.

LSWRly Bracket Signal.jpg

you should be able to make one of these with the Gibson kit. The lost wax finials are somewhat stronger than the white metal ones. You will however need the mse wbitemetal southern lamps.

[bécasse]

Type drawing of a typical ex L&SWRly Bracket Signal.

LSWRly Bracket Signal.jpg

 

This drawing shows a junction signal (where the subsidiary route diverges to the right) and would be quite wrong for a bracket carrying starting signals from two adjacent platforms where the arms would always be mounted at the same height, typically around 6 feet above the walkway on the bracket. Southern Railway practice was to not provide secondary ladders for posts of this height, although signals of this pattern erected well into the Southern Region era (e.g. at Weymouth) did have secondary ladders.

[Stephen Freeman]

This drawing shows a junction signal (where the subsidiary route diverges to the right) and would be quite wrong for a bracket carrying starting signals from two adjacent platforms where the arms would always be mounted at the same height, typically around 6 feet above the walkway on the bracket. Southern Railway practice was to not provide secondary ladders for posts of this height, although signals of this pattern erected well into the Southern Region era (e.g. at Weymouth) did have secondary ladders.

Well yes I assumed the point about the relative heights was understood and we were just talking about the type of bracket. Of course if the OP really wanted to push to boat out perhaps something along the lines of one of the Bournemouth West starters?

[Stephen Freeman]

Just in case no-one has seen it on my thread, arecent arrival from PPD