New Layout Idea- Swansea Victoria Themed. Huge Change of Plan!

[danstercivicman]

If only they could bring back the line

[Northroader]

I'd say the Central Wales line always had a very LMS look to it, it had close contact with GWR on the Pontardulais Ammanford stretch, local workings and mineral trains, but GWR 460s didn't really appear. The high level line behind the station would see a good variety of GWR tank engines, including absorbed valley lines and the Peckett types which had Swansea Docks for home. Bear in mind also through workings were on a very long stretch requiring tender engines, tank engines wouldn't show past Llandeilo going north.

The area around the station was docks sidings and terraced housing, but the line then ran along a very pleasant stretch of the bay, with seaside beaches, and the Mumbles tram, before turning inland across the Gower peninsula. There was some coal mines around here, but also green areas, and certainly not as blighted as the upper Swansea valley.

One feature which would be worth having is the TPO coaches, presumably this served the remoter parts of Wales, but worked from Swansea Vic to Shrewsbury, where there was a transfer into the mail train using the North to West route. Steam days at Shrewsbury there were always a couple of Royal Mail coaches parked in a siding close to the station during daylight hours, and would assume the same applied at the Swansea end.

My parents did a holiday at Tenby in the late fifties, travelling from East Shropshire, and they were routed through Shrewsbury and the Central Wales, with a change at Llandeilo for Carmarthen.

[Fat Controller]

I'd say the Central Wales line always had a very LMS look to it, it had close contact with GWR on the Pontardulais Ammanford stretch, local workings and mineral trains, but GWR 460s didn't really appear. The high level line behind the station would see a good variety of GWR tank engines, including absorbed valley lines and the Peckett types which had Swansea Docks for home. Bear in mind also through workings were on a very long stretch requiring tender engines, tank engines wouldn't show past Llandeilo going north.

The area around the station was docks sidings and terraced housing, but the line then ran along a very pleasant stretch of the bay, with seaside beaches, and the Mumbles tram, before turning inland across the Gower peninsula. There was some coal mines around here, but also green areas, and certainly not as blighted as the upper Swansea valley.

One feature which would be worth having is the TPO coaches, presumably this served the remoter parts of Wales, but worked from Swansea Vic to Shrewsbury, where there was a transfer into the mail train using the North to West route. Steam days at Shrewsbury there were always a couple of Royal Mail coaches parked in a siding close to the station during daylight hours, and would assume the same applied at the Swansea end.

My parents did a holiday at Tenby in the late fifties, travelling from East Shropshire, and they were routed through Shrewsbury and the Central Wales, with a change at Llandeilo for Carmarthen.

I concur that the stretch along Swansea Bay was very pleasant- once you had passed Swansea Prison, the houses were the sort of large three or more storey ones that you find facing the sea in many coastal towns, most being B&Bs or 'Commercial Hotels'. After passing the bowstring girder foot-bridge that spanned the 'main line', the Swansea and Mumbles Railway and Oystermouth Road, the line didn't have any buildings around it until it turned inland to follow the Clyne Valley.

The mail traffic was significant, and remained so until the demise of the Swindon Cross-Country units on the Shrewsbury to Llanelli services. In the days of TPOs, the vans would be attached to the Aberystwyth- York mail train at Shrewsbury.

Large tanks did work northbound long-distance services, presumably being replaced somewhere en-route. P144 of 'Red Dragon..' has a view of a BR Standard 2-6-4t on the front of the 12.20 pm service to Shrewsbury, formed of a Van 2nd and a Brake Compo. The former looks to be a Collett, and the latter is a Mk 1. Another shows a 74xx pannier (7437) on a Shrewsbury- Victoria service at Mumbles Road, taken in 1964.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I concur that the stretch along Swansea Bay was very pleasant- once you had passed Swansea Prison, the houses were the sort of large three or more storey ones that you find facing the sea in many coastal towns, most being B&Bs or 'Commercial Hotels'. After passing the bowstring girder foot-bridge that spanned the 'main line', the Swansea and Mumbles Railway and Oystermouth Road, the line didn't have any buildings around it until it turned inland to follow the Clyne Valley.

The mail traffic was significant, and remained so until the demise of the Swindon Cross-Country units on the Shrewsbury to Llanelli services. In the days of TPOs, the vans would be attached to the Aberystwyth- York mail train at Shrewsbury.

Large tanks did work northbound long-distance services, presumably being replaced somewhere en-route. P144 of 'Red Dragon..' has a view of a BR Standard 2-6-4t on the front of the 12.20 pm service to Shrewsbury, formed of a Van 2nd and a Brake Compo. The former looks to be a Collett, and the latter is a Mk 1. Another shows a 74xx pannier (7437) on a Shrewsbury- Victoria service at Mumbles Road, taken in 1964.

I don't see why one would need to change the loco on a run like this. Plenty of stops to take on water.

[Fat Controller]

I don't see why one would need to change the loco on a run like this. Plenty of stops to take on water.

Would the pannier have enough coal, though, for a run like this? There was a shed at Llandovery, mainly used for bankers on the bank to Cynghordy; perhaps locos were swapped there? An account of a visit by the Worcester Locomotive Society in 1962 had three Llanelly 8Fs and a Shrewsbury Black Five on shed.

[Liam]

Would the pannier have enough coal, though, for a run like this? There was a shed at Llandovery, mainly used for bankers on the bank to Cynghordy; perhaps locos were swapped there? An account of a visit by the Worcester Locomotive Society in 1962 had three Llanelly 8Fs and a Shrewsbury Black Five on shed.

I reckon just about, but as you say it is a long trek for a Pannier so I expect at Shrewsbury or wherever the northern terminus was there was a mad dash to the nearest coaling stage.

[danstercivicman]

The book I have on the Central Wales line also details how 8F's were used on passenger turns . There's a nice picture of one with a three coach take.

 

Fowler 2-6-4t's and BR standard 2-6-4t's seem to have abounded. Stanier tanks were seen on the line...

 

BR 5MT's and of course the Black Five's seem to be very common

 

Crabs apparently were irregular visitors, Castles pulled the Royal Train and panniers reigned on the locals. There was a recent Hornby article about converting a loco into the 74xx

 

I will be taking liberties and running Ivatt 2MT's and the occasional 4MT. My new class 25 ' feature as the layout is based on closure being avoided... I would eBay the 4MT but it's heavily modified . I might eBay the crab but I really like it! The V3 may be ebayed but... I really like it lol

 

With the TPO's would that have been a full set or just a couple of coaches tagged onto a parcel rake?

 

It also looks like there were two sidings on the back of the station hemmed in by the high level lines... I'm struggling to find a point with the right geometry to facilitate this. The peco curved is too tight and the long radius too straight. The medium doesn't look good either :s

 

Journey time from Shrewsbury to Swansea appears to have been 4.5hrs.

Edited June 17, 2017 by danstercivicman

[The Johnster]

The book I have on the Central Wales line also details how 8F's were used on passenger turns . There's a nice picture of one with a three coach take.

 

Fowler 2-6-4t's and BR standard 2-6-4t's seem to have abounded. Stanier tanks were seen on the line...

 

BR 5MT's and of course the Black Five's seem to be very common

 

Crabs apparently were irregular visitors, Castles pulled the Royal Train and panniers reigned on the locals. There was a recent Hornby article about converting a loco into the 74xx

 

I will be taking liberties and running Ivatt 2MT's and the occasional 4MT. My new class 25 ' feature as the layout is based on closure being avoided... I would eBay the 4MT but it's heavily modified . I might eBay the crab but I really like it! The V3 may be ebayed but... I really like it lol

 

With the TPO's would that have been a full set or just a couple of coaches tagged onto a parcel rake?

 

It also looks like there were two sidings on the back of the station hemmed in by the high level lines... I'm struggling to find a point with the right geometry to facilitate this. The peco curved is too tight and the long radius too straight. The medium doesn't look good either :s

 

Journey time from Shrewsbury to Swansea appears to have been 4.5hrs.

 

Castles on royal trains, double headed IIRC, apart, GW locos with outside cylinders would not work north of Llandovery or south of Craven Arms owing to platform clearance issues, so, no 4-6-0s, 2-6-0s, small or large prairies, 28xx, 42/5272xx etc.  If you have a crab it is allowable, but not too often, and a V3 is dependent on your interpretation of Rule 1, as is the 25; a Pantyfynnon 37 or D6xx is more likely.  2-6-4 tanks frequently worked through trains to Shrewsbury, turn and turn about with the 4-6-0s but not normally bunker first.

 

I am willing to be proved wrong on this point, but AFAIK the 'mail' trains on the Central Wales were not TPOs and did not use TPO stock, just 'normal' parcels vans carrying mailbags.  No sorting was done on the trains, which did not have sorting saloons or bag tenders in TPO livery or pick up or drop mail from TPO lineside apparatus, but did connect with the TPO network proper at Shrewsbury.  The 'York Mail' was a passenger train which included a BG for this traffic.  As you say, panniers, mostly 57xx, handled local traffiic, which was usually formed of LMS stock; no autos.    Webb 'Coal Tank' 0-6-2s were used until their withdrawal in the early 50s.  The 74xx mentioned sounds like a one-off and has the ring of an engine pinched off another job to relieve a failed loco at Llandeilo to me; AFAIK the nearest allocation was Carmarthen,  and they worked Carmarthen-Llandielo trains.

 

Swansea Victoria is, I mean was, a fascinating place in a unique location, and has been crying out for someone to have a shot at modelling it for years.  It featured short trains and big engines, an eminently modellable combination.  Your track plan 'flows' nicely and captures the essence of the place; I shall follow with interest!  I would, however, make the point that you are going to get fed up with ducking under the boards to get into that corner space very quickly...

 

Modern journey times via Llanelli from High Street are over 4 hours, with less stops but of course the diversion to Llanelli to take into account; I doubt if speeds or timings are much changed from steam days.

Edited June 17, 2017 by The Johnster

[Penlan]

Large tanks did work northbound long-distance services, presumably being replaced somewhere en-route. P144 of 'Red Dragon..' has a view of a BR Standard 2-6-4t on the front of the 12.20 pm service to Shrewsbury, formed of a Van 2nd and a Brake Compo. The former looks to be a Collett, and the latter is a Mk 1. Another shows a 74xx pannier (7437) on a Shrewsbury- Victoria service at Mumbles Road, taken in 1964.

I don't have the 'Red Dragon' book*, therefore I can't comment on the 74xx picture caption,

but the GWR Panniers were only used for local work, this is more likely to be a Swansea - Pontardulias working.

Much like the Coal Tanks in earlier times.

There was a Pannier tank service between Llandovery and Llaneli in the 1950's, which extended it's trip as far as Llandrindod Wells on Summer Saturdays, but this was the only Pannier Tank working north of Llandovery - from the South.   All E. & O. E., 

 

I expect somebody will post a photo of a LNWR 5' 6" 2-4-2T of around 1905 working a passenger train south near Knighton,  but there's nothing to show that loco worked all the way through.

OK, I shall now sit back and await all those photo's proving me wrong.  

 

* Or I'm pretty sure I don't, who's the Author, please.

I am willing to be proved wrong on this point, but AFAIK the 'mail' trains on the Central Wales were not TPOs and did not use TPO stock, just 'normal' parcels vans carrying mailbags.  

Correct.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Penlan

[Fat Controller]

I don't have the 'Red Dragon' book*, therefore I can't comment on the 74xx picture caption,

but the GWR Panniers were only used for local work, this is more likely to be a Swansea - Pontardulias working.

Much like the Coal Tanks in earlier times.

There was a Pannier tank service between Llandovery and Llaneli in the 1950's, which extended it's trip as far as Llandrindod Wells on Summer Saturdays, but this was the only Pannier Tank working north of Llandovery - from the South.   All E. & O. E., 

 

I expect somebody will post a photo of a LNWR 5' 6" 2-4-2T of around 1905 working a passenger train south near Knighton,  but there's nothing to show that loco worked all the way through.

OK, I shall now sit back and await all those photo's proving me wrong.  

 

* Or I'm pretty sure I don't, who's the Author, please.

Correct.

I agree that it would be extremely unlikely that Panniers would work much beyond Pantyffynon from Victoria; Llandovery might be another possibility for a loco change, as it retained a shed and turntable.

Pantyffynon certainly provided some loco changing facilities.

There is one odd Pannier working I discovered; the 7.48 am service from Llanelly to Llangadock, which only conveyed passengers as far as Pontardulais. Thence, it conveyed empty road-rail milk tanks to the creamery at Llangadock, running as a Class C freight.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Fat Controller

[danstercivicman]

I don't have the 'Red Dragon' book*, therefore I can't comment on the 74xx picture caption,

but the GWR Panniers were only used for local work, this is more likely to be a Swansea - Pontardulias working.

Much like the Coal Tanks in earlier times.

There was a Pannier tank service between Llandovery and Llaneli in the 1950's, which extended it's trip as far as Llandrindod Wells on Summer Saturdays, but this was the only Pannier Tank working north of Llandovery - from the South. All E. & O. E.,

 

I expect somebody will post a photo of a LNWR 5' 6" 2-4-2T of around 1905 working a passenger train south near Knighton, but there's nothing to show that loco worked all the way through.

OK, I shall now sit back and await all those photo's proving me wrong.

 

* Or I'm pretty sure I don't, who's the Author, please.

 

Correct.

Great info

 

I won't be running the V3 on this layout, the class 25, crab and 4MT will be very rare visitors.

 

I can't see any pics of TPO's in the books. The parcels train looks like a motley crue of parcels stock and vans much as my Birmingham Hope St stock.

 

Panniers will be locals. The books show 74xx being used on the Aberwili to Llandilo bridge line. Source 'steam in south wales vol.2' by Michael Hale. Not shown at Swansea Victoria so I think that be a separate line?

 

Portrait of the central Wales line by Martin Smith shows 9677 at Swansea Victoria. 7718 on a Swansea train.

 

Google images shows 7408 actually on the centre road at Swansea Victoria

 

It also shows a Midland 1F at Swansea Victoria (prewar) and Pontardulais-Swansea infrequently using a 56xx-5602.

 

It also shows pannier 4650 in the yard, Coal tank 59880 in the station and 9637 in the station.

 

80069 shows 4MT's 2-6-4t's worked the line.

 

Interestingly no photos of Ivatt 2MT's which seem to have been well used in N.Wales and on the Cambrian.

 

Three questions...

 

1) what on earth is a 96xx???

 

2) a 46xx??

 

3) anyone want to swap a V3 for a pannier

 

It does seem a pannier is not just a pannier but there are a plethora of panniers!!!!

 

Not feeling too good today but hopefully will wire up a test board for the Shinohara pint next week. I need to test it will select routes (insulfrog and test it for radius).

 

I've then got to start thinking about baseboard construction and how to lay the boards to avoid poinwork and fit into the space... all that whilst waiting for a consultant

 

I guess my locals with the panniers will be to Pontadulais.

 

The 2-6-4's will venture further afield (Craven Arms) and the 5MT's and 8F's to Shrewsbury or Craven Arms?

Edited June 17, 2017 by danstercivicman

[danstercivicman]

Ahhh it looks like 46xx and 96xx's were actually 57xx's...

[danstercivicman]

Thanks everyone for the info btw . I'm gonna have to look at the access issues to the back of the layout

[Fat Controller]

Great info

 

I won't be running the V3 on this layout, the class 25, crab and 4MT will be very rare visitors.

 

I can't see any pics of TPO's in the books. The parcels train looks like a motley crue of parcels stock and vans much as my Birmingham Hope St stock.

 

Panniers will be locals. The books show 74xx being used on the Aberwili to Llandilo bridge line. Source 'steam in south wales vol.2' by Michael Hale. Not shown at Swansea Victoria so I think that be a separate line?

 

Portrait of the central Wales line by Martin Smith shows 9677 at Swansea Victoria. 7718 on a Swansea train.

 

Google images shows 7408 actually on the centre road at Swansea Victoria

 

It also shows a Midland 1F at Swansea Victoria (prewar) and Pontardulais-Swansea infrequently using a 56xx-5602.

 

It also shows pannier 4650 in the yard, Coal tank 59880 in the station and 9637 in the station.

 

80069 shows 4MT's 2-6-4t's worked the line.

 

Interestingly no photos of Ivatt 2MT's which seem to have been well used in N.Wales and on the Cambrian.

 

Three questions...

 

1) what on earth is a 96xx???

 

2) a 46xx??

 

3) anyone want to swap a V3 for a pannier

 

It does seem a pannier is not just a pannier but there are a plethora of panniers!!!!

 

Not feeling too good today but hopefully will wire up a test board for the Shinohara pint next week. I need to test it will select routes (insulfrog and test it for radius).

 

I've then got to start thinking about baseboard construction and how to lay the boards to avoid poinwork and fit into the space... all that whilst waiting for a consultant

 

I guess my locals with the panniers will be to Pontadulais.

 

The 2-6-4's will venture further afield (Craven Arms) and the 5MT's and 8F's to Shrewsbury or Craven Arms?

The 96xx and 46xx were other number series for the 57xx/8750 Pannier; there were a heck of a lot of these. Most had vacuum brakes and steam-heating pipes, but one sub-class (67xx?) didn't; Upper Bank shed, on the Midland route had an allocation of these.

The Carmarthen- Llandeilo line was a separate line, originally built by the L&NWR; the lines from Llanelly and Swansea were originally built by the Llanelly Dock and Railway Company, then taken over by the GWR and L&NWR respectively.

Edited June 17, 2017 by Fat Controller

[Joseph_Pestell]

Would the pannier have enough coal, though, for a run like this? There was a shed at Llandovery, mainly used for bankers on the bank to Cynghordy; perhaps locos were swapped there? An account of a visit by the Worcester Locomotive Society in 1962 had three Llanelly 8Fs and a Shrewsbury Black Five on shed.

I was thinking more of the Standard 4MT. I don't think a small Pannier would have gone that far (as per other answers).

[danstercivicman]

The 96xx and 46xx were other number series for the 57xx/8750 Pannier; there were a heck of a lot of these. Most had vacuum brakes and steam-heating pipes, but one sub-class (67xx?) didn't; Upper Bank shed, on the Midland route had an allocation of these.

The Carmarthen- Llandeilo line was a separate line, originally built by the L&NWR; the lines from Llanelly and Swansea were originally built by the Llanelly Dock and Railway Company, then taken over by the GWR and L&NWR respectively.

Helpful Info so basically if I got a 57xx from Bachmann (or Bachmon in Black Country speak), took a knife to the number plate and fitted a new number plate I'd have 9677 or 9621 which would be correct to the line!  That will have to be a future purchase!

 

Measuring up it looks like the largest reach point would be 1100cm.   Please see revised plan for the back scene.   There is a crawl space behind the rest of the backscene. 

[danstercivicman]

I was thinking more of the Standard 4MT. I don't think a small Pannier would have gone that far (as per other answers).

 

I think the 4MT's  2-6-4t's ran quite far down/up/across the line from the pics.   From reading the books there were some very spirited runs by the loco crews and I think the 460's were well flogged

[The Johnster]

Sorry you're not feeling up to par today, Danster.  To fill the time in while you're not modelling, how about a quick lesson in GW pannier tankery?  There were, as you aay, a plethora, not only of engines but of classes.  The largest class was the 57xx, with over 800 locos, and these came in two basic sorts, the 57xx proper, which also covered the 6700-49 series, 77xx, and 8700-49.  These are available from Baccy, and have low roof cabs with round spectacle windows.  These were followed by the 8750 variant, 8750-99, 36xx, 37xx, 46xx, 6750-99, and 96xx series, which were not a guide to building order, just allocated number series made available by withdrawal of older locos, also available from Baccy but I'm not sure in current production, with a modified high roof cab and square to the cab profile cab windows.  Anything 67xx or 6750-99 were not fitted with vacuum brakes and intended purely as goods shunting engines, both variants being used on Swansea Docks.  There was a 97xx variant with condensing gear for working over the London Underground routes used by freight trains; they were a long way from Victoria!  All had tapering 'flower pot' chimneys. 

 

Then there were a group of smaller locos of similar appearance to the 8750s, intended for weight restricted branch work; these are the 54xx and it's closely related classes the 64xx and 74xx.  54xx were auto fitted from new, and had 5'2" driving wheels (all other GW panniers that you might encounter at Victoria had 4'7"), and while looking similar to 8750s, were visually distinguishable by their parallel chimneys, and their lower set boilers, which meant that the top of the smokeboxes did not protrude above the tops of the tanks as they did on 57xx/8750s.  Further to this, they had a curved form on the bunker side where it merges with the rear cab sheet.  These were followed by the 64xx, also auto fitted, which were a development for hilly South Wales auto work but, as with all auto fitted locos, could be found on other trains; these had 'normal' 4'7" drivers.  The first series of these were identical to all intents and purposes with 54xx except for the smaller driving wheels, but a later series has the 8750 bunker sides with square corners to the rear cab join.  This is available from Baccy.  The third of these smaller panniers was the 74xx, visually virtually indistinguishable from the later 64xx engines, but not auto fitted.  64xx were used on auto trains out of High Street, presumably Landore engine. 

 

67xx and 6750 classes are easily modifiable as renumbered Baccy with the vacuum pipes removed.  74xx can be similarly made from 64xx by removing the auto gear and battery boxes.  

 

There is more.  Plethora indeed; in the very early 50s there were still a number of panniers around of earlier designs, some retaining open half cabs.  These were rebuilds of late 19th century locos that were originally saddle tanks, fitted with pannier tanks to accommodate replacement boilers with Belpaire fireboxes that could not be fitted under the saddles.  The only one you need concern yourself with is the 2721 class, precursor to the 57xx and available rtr from Hornby, a bit of a curate's egg of a model though.  Hornby also made an 8750 at one time; I would advise avoiding this as it was very toy-like and is not worth trying to make a decent model out of.

 

The 94xx, introduced in 1947 just before Nationalisation and mostly build under BR, was a much bigger pannier sharing the frames and taper boiler of the 2251 Collett Goods 0-6-0, very easily visually identified by the tanks not coming to the smokebox front but stopping short, so that half the smokebox barrel is visible.  BR also introduced two Hawskworth pannier designs, the 16xx, the smallest type, based on older locos and with 4'1" wheels, and intended for very lightly laid branches, and a 15xx, which is highly distinctive, having no footplate, outside Walchearts valve gear, and a very short wheelbase; I can best describe this as the product of an illicit but intimate relationship between a USA 0-6-0 tank and a 94xx (or a very serious collision between those locos).  When a mummy engine and a daddy engine love each other very much...  They were used as dock shunters owing to their ability to negotiate very sharp curves, but I am unsure if any were ever used at Swansea or allocated to any Swansea shed; if they had, Danygraig would have been the most likely one. 94xx ran into 84xx and 34xx series, and the first 10 locos were superheated and carried GWR livery when they were new; you would have certainly seen these beasts around Swansea, but I am not sure about Victoria.  I have no idea offhand if 16xx were ever used in the area.  I remember 94xx being used as bankers between High Street and Cockett.

 

There were more, lots more, but most had well gone before BR days, and I will not confuse you with them; with rebuilds, swapped boilers, reversions to saddle tanks if a round top boiler was retrofitted, even some that spent some of their lives as side tanks, predating even half cabs and having no more than weatherboards, they are certainly confusing!  Like the latest version of the plan; everything is much more accessible!

Edited June 17, 2017 by The Johnster

[danstercivicman]

Sorry you're not feeling up to par today, Danster. To fill the time in while you're not modelling, how about a quick lesson in GW pannier tankery? There were, as you aay, a plethora, not only of engines but of classes. The largest class was the 57xx, with over 800 locos, and these came in two basic sorts, the 57xx proper, which also covered the 6700-49 series, 77xx, and 8700-49. These are available from Baccy, and have low roof cabs with round spectacle windows. These were followed by the 8750 variant, 8750-99, 36xx, 37xx, 46xx, 6750-99, and 96xx series, which were not a guide to building order, just allocated number series made available by withdrawal of older locos, also available from Baccy but I'm not sure in current production, with a modified high roof cab and square to the cab profile cab windows. Anything 67xx or 6750-99 were not fitted with vacuum brakes and intended purely as goods shunting engines, both variants being used on Swansea Docks. There was a 97xx variant with condensing gear for working over the London Underground routes used by freight trains; they were a long way from Victoria! All had tapering 'flower pot' chimneys.

 

Then there were a group of smaller locos of similar appearance to the 8750s, intended for weight restricted branch work; these are the 54xx and it's closely related classes the 64xx and 74xx. 54xx were auto fitted from new, and had 5'2" driving wheels (all other GW panniers that you might encounter at Victoria had 4'7"), and while looking similar to 8750s, were visually distinguishable by their parallel chimneys, and their lower set boilers, which meant that the top of the smokeboxes did not protrude above the tops of the tanks as they did on 57xx/8750s. Further to this, they had a curved form on the bunker side where it merges with the rear cab sheet. These were followed by the 64xx, also auto fitted, which were a development for hilly South Wales auto work but, as with all auto fitted locos, could be found on other trains; these had 'normal' 4'7" drivers. The first series of these were identical to all intents and purposes with 54xx except for the smaller driving wheels, but a later series has the 8750 bunker sides with square corners to the rear cab join. This is available from Baccy. The third of these smaller panniers was the 74xx, visually virtually indistinguishable from the later 64xx engines, but not auto fitted. 64xx were used on auto trains out of High Street, presumably Landore engine.

 

67xx and 6750 classes are easily modifiable as renumbered Baccy with the vacuum pipes removed. 74xx can be similarly made from 64xx by removing the auto gear and battery boxes.

 

There is more. Plethora indeed; in the very early 50s there were still a number of panniers around of earlier designs, some retaining open half cabs. These were rebuilds of late 19th century locos that were originally saddle tanks, fitted with pannier tanks to accommodate replacement boilers with Belpaire fireboxes that could not be fitted under the saddles. The only one you need concern yourself with is the 2721 class, precursor to the 57xx and available rtr from Hornby, a bit of a curate's egg of a model though. Hornby also made an 8750 at one time; I would advise avoiding this as it was very toy-like and is not worth trying to make a decent model out of.

 

The 94xx, introduced in 1947 just before Nationalisation and mostly build under BR, was a much bigger pannier sharing the frames and taper boiler of the 2251 Collett Goods 0-6-0, very easily visually identified by the tanks not coming to the smokebox front but stopping short, so that half the smokebox barrel is visible. BR also introduced two Hawskworth pannier designs, the 16xx, the smallest type, based on older locos and with 4'1" wheels, and intended for very lightly laid branches, and a 15xx, which is highly distinctive, having no footplate, outside Walchearts valve gear, and a very short wheelbase; I can best describe this as the product of an illicit but intimate relationship between a USA 0-6-0 tank and a 94xx (or a very serious collision between those locos). When a mummy engine and a daddy engine love each other very much... They were used as dock shunters owing to their ability to negotiate very sharp curves, but I am unsure if any were ever used at Swansea or allocated to any Swansea shed; if they had, Danygraig would have been the most likely one. 94xx ran into 84xx and 34xx series, and the first 10 locos were superheated and carried GWR livery when they were new; you would have certainly seen these beasts around Swansea, but I am not sure about Victoria. I have no idea offhand if 16xx were ever used in the area. I remember 94xx being used as bankers between High Street and Cockett.

 

There were more, lots more, but most had well gone before BR days, and I will not confuse you with them; with rebuilds, swapped boilers, reversions to saddle tanks if a round top boiler was retrofitted, even some that spent some of their lives as side tanks, predating even half cabs and having no more than weatherboards, they are certainly confusing! Like the latest version of the plan; everything is much more accessible!

Brilliant information . I can see 57xx's on eBay but surprisingly no 8750's.

 

Glad you like the latest layout plan, just got to build it!!

[Fat Controller]

Both 94xx and 16xx were seen around Victoria; 'Y Ddraig Goch' has several shots of 94xx on both passenger and freight workings, whilst a 16xx appears on the high-level dock lines in the rear of one shot. 16xx were very common at Llanelly, either working from Llanelly shed itself, notably on trains to Cynheidre (which passed my primary school), and from the sub-shed at Burry Port, covering the BP&GVR and GVR branches.

[Liam]

Brilliant information . I can see 57xx's on eBay but surprisingly no 8750's.

Glad you like the latest layout plan, just got to build it!!

Mine is an '8750' and I'm very proud of it. It's in BR Black weathered, and in case you're interested I think the code is 32-203A.

[danstercivicman]

Mine is an '8750' and I'm very proud of it. It's in BR Black weathered, and in case you're interested I think the code is 32-203A.

They are a lovely loco. I will be looking for one after pay day

[The Johnster]

Distance from any given point to payday = infinity; I feel your pain, brother...

 

Mine's a 57xx, 7739, and a lovely model, smooth as silk and controllable down to walking pace.  I also have 6422, which is just as good, though both are to be re-numberplated to represent Tondu allocated locos.

 

The high level dock line, if you can include it, gives huge scope for including GW locos of all sorts and even the Midland intruders; maybe best to restrict yourself to the Victoria stuff to keep focussed or it'll take the whole thing over and leave Victoria as a side show!

[Fat Controller]

There's been little mention of freight traffic so far. Looking through various publications (I do have more than one book..), by the 1950s, this was mainly coal for domestic and industrial use. There were coal depots at Victoria itself, Mumbles Road, Gowerton and Gorseinon; the latter stayed open into the 1980s, fed by a stub of the former main line, initially from Pontardulais, then later by a west-facing spur from the Swansea District line at Grovesend Colliery Loop. Shipping coal tended to go via Llandeilo Junction and Jersey Marine, even though this was the traffic the line was built for. Empty wagons almost certainly went to Burrows Yard via the High-Level line.

Otherwise, most southbound freights went to Llandeilo Junction; the exception was the 'Burton Goods', which started, as its name suggests, from Burton on Trent. This consisted mainly of vans and opens carrying beer; the traffic survived the closure of the line, running in later years via Margam to Hafod Goods, the GWR depot between Landore and High Street. By then, the traffic was largely bulk barrels for Bass, carried in Tube wagons adorned with boards bearing the famous red triangle.

A bit of modeller's licence could have tinplate from Pontardulais, the last outpost of the hand-mill to survive. This would have been in Shoc-Vans, and would have gone via the High Level line to King's Dock.

[danstercivicman]

Thank you both for info . The goods info is bery helpful- what is a tube wagon? Do you meN like a milk tanker or s five plank filled with silver barrels?

 

Goods will def be a big part of the layout in all the books and images I can see the sidings are full!