Alliance drops Pendolino plan as Southampton paths identified

[keefer]

Looking at the 707 interior pic, remember when 2+1 seating used to mean 1st class comfort?

[jonathan452]

I notice tilt through Wolverton and Weedon, but that's about it south of Crewe - don't often go north of there. It's not exactly a twisty route south of the lakes, though.

What about Berkhamsted, LInslade (Leighton Buzzard) and Atherstone for starters?

 

Presuming that tilt doesn't come in-to play at Stafford.

 

And the new layout at Rugby still limits conventional trains to 100mph whilst the Pendolino's (and Voyagers?) are cleared for the full 125mph.

[Southernman46]

707s won't be 100mph capable though, will they? Not sure about the modified 458s, but when they were new they showed up on the main line semi fasts at least to Alton & Basingstoke so they might be an option down the road.

Stupid Q - what are the 707's going to replace in September on SWT ???

[phil-b259]

Stupid Q - what are the 707's going to replace in September on SWT ???

 

IIRC they are not going to replace anything - they will simply increase the SWT size.

 

Basically SWT doesn't have enough stock at present to meet the current franchise commitments so extra stock needed to be ordered. The 707s will do two things, firstly they will allow more 10 car suburban trains - as even the transfer of the 456 fleet from Southern isn't enough (plus of course a 4+4+2 setup waists lots of passenger space in unused driving cabs). Secondly the 707s will allow the 450s currently running round as 'high capacity' versions to revert to their intended role as outer suburban stock and bolster services in Hampshire, etc.

Edited June 20, 2017 by phil-b259

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Stupid Q - what are the 707's going to replace in September on SWT ???

 

A380s apparently.

[Red Baron]

The bit of this topic that bemuses me is the futility of running trains to Blackpool?   It is just a DSS  "holding pen" these days.   The council believed blackpool was an undefeatable attraction -  they didnt need the M55  so it stopped outside the town.    They let the airport fizzle out  (which with no motorway link and no rail link  - both of which could have been done) so bar driving the kids through the illuminations there is no reason to go there.

 

If they were to run more open access services on the WCML  then surely Preston-Euston  makes much more sense - bring platform 7 back in to use.  The electric 319's to blackpool every half hour will be a huge upgrade from the past and will more than surfice for that traffic. Run them 8 car in the summer peak if need be - but there is sweet FA business traffic for blackpool.

[surfsup]

IIRC they are not going to replace anything - they will simply increase the SWT size.

 

Basically SWT doesn't have enough stock at present to meet the current franchise commitments so extra stock needed to be ordered. The 707s will do two things, firstly they will allow more 10 car suburban trains - as even the transfer of the 456 fleet from Southern isn't enough (plus of course a 4+4+2 setup waists lots of passenger space in unused driving cabs). Secondly the 707s will allow the 450s currently running round as 'high capacity' versions to revert to their intended role as outer suburban stock and bolster services in Hampshire, etc.

Although out of irony and hard luck, the 707s will also be finding themselves replaced within the next 2 years along with all the ex BR Stock to the new Aventras.

 

Options for the 707s could include going across to TSGN to join their 700 & 717 cousins, or another franchise willing to take them on and either keep them as DC or add Pantographs to make them AC units. The LM franchise announcement is only a couple of weeks away after all.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

If new services reach Blackpool, maybe some time and effort could be expended on the "renowned" quality of customer care and the platform welcome at Blackpool North.........................

[Southernman46]

Although out of irony and hard luck, the 707s will also be finding themselves replaced within the next 2 years along with all the ex BR Stock to the new Aventras.

 

Options for the 707s could include going across to TSGN to join their 700 & 717 cousins, or another franchise willing to take them on and either keep them as DC or add Pantographs to make them AC units. The LM franchise announcement is only a couple of weeks away after all.

The SR have got form anyway in this kind of thing - remember the 508's which were got rid of as soon as possible from the SWD

[Zomboid]

What about Berkhamsted, LInslade (Leighton Buzzard) and Atherstone for starters

I haven't noticed tilt there. I'm sure there are lots of places the train tilts and I haven't noticed (or remembered that I noticed) it.

[Edwin_m]

As far as I'm aware the tilt compatibility of the Mk4s extended only as far as the bodyshell cross-section.  The bogies would have to be replaced and much else changed to retrofit it. 

 

I was on the 1200 Glasgow-Euston via Birmingham and according to the very helpful train manager's announcements the tilt failed somewhere before Carlisle leaving the train to run at non-tilt speeds.  It was only 6min down when I left at Warrington, admittedly with the benefit of some fairly smart stops that recovered a few minutes at Preston for example.  Given that this is one of the more curvy sections, the benefit from tilt is smaller than most people think especially as some of the non-tilting speeds might be increased if anyone wanted to spend the money badly enough.  Otherwise, south of Crewe there are already 110mph paths for London Midland so the set could be flighted with one of those.  The lower accelleration of a 225 set might be more significant, depending how many intermediate stops they are thinking of. 

[Edwin_m]

The bit of this topic that bemuses me is the futility of running trains to Blackpool?   It is just a DSS  "holding pen" these days.   The council believed blackpool was an undefeatable attraction -  they didnt need the M55  so it stopped outside the town.    They let the airport fizzle out  (which with no motorway link and no rail link  - both of which could have been done) so bar driving the kids through the illuminations there is no reason to go there.

 

If they were to run more open access services on the WCML  then surely Preston-Euston  makes much more sense - bring platform 7 back in to use.  The electric 319's to blackpool every half hour will be a huge upgrade from the past and will more than surfice for that traffic. Run them 8 car in the summer peak if need be - but there is sweet FA business traffic for blackpool.

Regulations require that open access operators are "not primarily abstractive" - that is they have to run demand models to show that a high proportion of their revenue comes from new passengers rather than diverting from franchised services (whose premium to or subsidy from the public sector - taxpayers' money one way or another - is based on the demand assumptions they made at bid time).  Hence why the ECML open access operatiors all serve destinations off the main line and sometimes ignore what might be thought to be obvious intermediate stops.  I imagine if Grand Central can make all this work for Sunderland and Hartlepool then Alliance has a pretty good chance for Blackpool 

 

Although the M55 doesn't run to Blackpool it turns into a fast dual carriageway that follows the old railway line to a huge car park on the site of Central station.   So I don't think they can be accused of making things difficult for the car-borne visitor. 

[Zomboid]

They'll probably add some stops that might not seem an obvious choice, rather than the likes of Milton Keynes. Perhaps Tamworth or Hartford or something.

 

225 acceleration isn't going to be that great, but they'll be optimistic if they're trying to run a full ECML set anyway. I suspect it'll start off with about 4 coaches + DVT and if it's a success maybe grow to be 6 + DVT. In which case it'll be a bit quicker off the mark. A bigger problem will probably be getting it to move at all in the Blackpool area. Not a strong part of the electricity network round there, I wouldn't be surprised if a 91 taking power found it had about 8 volts available.

[Penrhos1920]

225's had very good acceleration when first introduced. But that was when they had a125 power car on the other end as well. I wonder if there are any spare 125s around

[Coach bogie]

Yes I thought tilt is really only useful in the northern stretches of WCML, which is why I thought the 91 and Mk4s unaltered was a good idea. As Ben says they were built for tilt capability, but would you install new gear on a 30 year old asset? Probably prohibitively expensive. No , I'm in favour of keeping it simple. Work on reliability and it's a nice trainset. Don't need tilt , presumably they just need to keep up with other traffic to secure their path

 Berkhamstead Just outside the M25, certainly puts the tilt to full limits

 

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited June 20, 2017 by Coach bogie

[jonathan452]

What about Berkhamsted, LInslade (Leighton Buzzard) and Atherstone for starters?

 

Presuming that tilt doesn't come in-to play at Stafford.

 

And the new layout at Rugby still limits conventional trains to 100mph whilst the Pendolino's (and Voyagers?) are cleared for the full 125mph.

 

I haven't noticed tilt there. I'm sure there are lots of places the train tilts and I haven't noticed (or remembered that I noticed) it.

See post 40 (above) for Berkhamsted,

 

Linslade and Atherstone would be similar.

Edited June 20, 2017 by jonathan452

[Gerald Henriksen]

I don't know if it's correct, but the Wikipedia page claims they are.

 

Wikipedia also links to a Siemens pdf file, Siemens claims 100mph.

[298]

225's had very good acceleration when first introduced. But that was when they had a125 power car on the other end as well. I wonder if there are any spare 125s around

The performance of that paring was a bit of an urban myth, and was more of a reflection of a HST power car now being paired with something with three times the power than previously- they might have been the fastest accelerating thing on the ECML when the wires went up, but the acceleration rate was still decreased for passenger comfort and a 90 on Mk4 stock (or any other AC Electric at the time) was quicker off the mark.

[Red Baron]

As I understand  the tilt advantage is much greater north of Preston but there is still a gain on the sourthern half of the WCML.  However I am sure i read a few weeks ago they were looking at re assesing the speed limits for non tilt to allow more stock to operate betterin the future -  ( think this was HS2 related..)

[jjb1970]

The pendolinos do quite a bit of tilting on the southern part of the WCML.

[Coryton]

As far as I'm aware the tilt compatibility of the Mk4s extended only as far as the bodyshell cross-section.  The bogies would have to be replaced and much else changed to retrofit it. 

 

 Given that this is one of the more curvy sections, the benefit from tilt is smaller than most people think 

 

Yes I think the idea was that the Mk 4 bodyshell design (and jigs?) could be used for tilt coaches later on, not that the existing coaches would be upgraded.

 

And even if they could, it's very hard to see how the design effort alone could be justified now.

 

As for tilt benefit, there's also presumably a marketing benefit as well as straightforward decreases in journey time.

 

Didn't journeys increase when HSTs were put on lines where they couldn't go any faster than the previous trains? And I don't think it was (just?) because the Mk 3 coaches were more pleasant to travel in.

[keefer]

Even if an HST service had the same max speed as the previous loco-hauled one, journey times still came down a bit because they were quicker away from station stops and speed restrictions.

I believe this happened particularly in Scotland, even before differential speed limits were brought in.

[DY444]

There are places on the south of the WCML that 125mph running is allowed without tilt, as the HSTs were allowed to run at these speeds.

 

No they were limited to 110.  The only things authorised for 125 on the WCML are Voyagers and Pendolinos

[DY444]

Indeed, there are only a few places where tilt is necessary south of Crewe but, as things stand on the WCML you can't run at 125 mph without it, so those class 91s will be limited to 110 mph.

 

Because of this it would make far more sense to use 90s as these have better acceleration.

[DavidLong]

There is a two page article in the July edition of Modern Railways on the open access proposals  for Blackpool - London services along with Virgin's parallel proposals.

Alliance's original proposal only had firm rights as far as Queen's Park due to uncertainty about capacity at Euston during rebuilding for HS2. The current plan assumes access to Euston with stops at Poulton, Kirkham, Preston, Nuneaton and Milton Keynes. The original application included plans to call additionally at Tamworth, Lichfield TV and Crewe but these have been withdrawn in order to remain competitive in terms of journey times.

I'm still miffed that that there is no stop at Wigan NW so I'm still a captive Virgin customer from either Wigan or Manchester. Having said that I have little complaint about the service provided by Virgin. I like the Pendolinos and the fares can be incredibly cheap although on weekdays I'm priced off most services before 09.30.

 

David