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Bachmann 94xx


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I would agree if we are talking about Triang or Hornby Dublo levels of gimmickry. 

 

But check out the Rapido Stirling Single for what firebox glow is like when done properly. Something lost on all the YouTube videos I've just looked for. Maybe it'll work better with the fallplate down.....  :lol:

 

 

 

Jason

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10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

If it’s done well it’ll be apparent in shady areas and will illuminate crew and details.  

 

I'm still on the gimmick-that-I-can-live-without side of the fence, but you make a good point here for illuminating closed cab crews.

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16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

But if not, and it is continuous and does not respect that firedoors are sometime shut, it will not cut the mustard on my layout and one can only hope that the bulb can be removed or obscured.

 

Firehole doors should be shut as much as possible when working, especially hard, not just sometimes. If they are open too long the boiler will suffer as will the fire with a lack of primary air.

 

Roy

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Conversely, when the loco is standing and needs to be kept quiet, they may be left open to stop the safety valves lifting, not to mention cooking on the shovel.  But, yes, when the loco is being actively fired the doors are shut except when a round is being put on.  Glow is visible beneath the firebox through the firebars, 'pulsing' brighter with the exhaust beat as the draw in the fire is increased, an effect most visible when the loco is pulling away from a standing start.

 

It's a fairly complex thing to model if one is to take into account all the conditions that need to be replicated, and ideally needs to be on some sort of feedback to react to how hard the loco is working, or (harder) how hard you want it to appear to be working.  This is why I suspect DCC is the best way to operate this, and doubt it will be available on analogue models.

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7 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Conversely, when the loco is standing and needs to be kept quiet, they may be left open to stop the safety valves lifting, not to mention cooking on the shovel.  But, yes, when the loco is being actively fired the doors are shut except when a round is being put on.  Glow is visible beneath the firebox through the firebars, 'pulsing' brighter with the exhaust beat as the draw in the fire is increased, an effect most visible when the loco is pulling away from a standing start.

 

It's a fairly complex thing to model if one is to take into account all the conditions that need to be replicated, and ideally needs to be on some sort of feedback to react to how hard the loco is working, or (harder) how hard you want it to appear to be working.  This is why I suspect DCC is the best way to operate this, and doubt it will be available on analogue models. 

 

Yep, very complex - even the colour changes. Rolling on the flat you probably have the doors shut, down a long hill they may be cracked open to cool the fire a bit but not too much. As for underneath,  have you got a damper open or shut, and if open which one? That changes the amount of light and position as well,

 

As for cooking in the shovel, I seem to meet two sorts of people, those who think you do it for every meal and those that don't believe it at all. Nothing beats a good cooked breakfast off the shovel - it tastes very different.

 

For me, I am happy without on a model as I don't think it will capture the effect as it should - but I don't mind it being there as long as I can turn it of.

 

Roy

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28 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Yep, very complex - even the colour changes. Rolling on the flat you probably have the doors shut, down a long hill they may be cracked open to cool the fire a bit but not too much. As for underneath,  have you got a damper open or shut, and if open which one? That changes the amount of light and position as well,

 

As for cooking in the shovel, I seem to meet two sorts of people, those who think you do it for every meal and those that don't believe it at all. Nothing beats a good cooked breakfast off the shovel - it tastes very different.

 

For me, I am happy without on a model as I don't think it will capture the effect as it should - but I don't mind it being there as long as I can turn it of.

 

Roy

My main concern about breakfast, or anything, cooked on a shovel would be the other thing the shovel was used for .  Maybe that's why many enginemen took sandwiches to work?

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All the ex drivers and firemen I've ever talked to have confirmed it was total nonsense. Just why would you even contemplate it? 

 

I blame TV programmes such as Blue Peter and hipster restaurants for perpetrating the myth. Yeah I really want to pay £50 to have my food served on a shovel....:nono:

 

 

Jason

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7 hours ago, truffy said:

 

I'm still on the gimmick-that-I-can-live-without side of the fence, but you make a good point here for illuminating closed cab crews.

 

The problem is the market is changing. Whilst us luddites don't particularly need or want gimmicks such as sound, lights and flickering fireholes, there is a whole new generation that will expect things like that as the norm. Bachmann are making a model that will probably be in the catalogue for the next twenty years. Who knows what people will expect in 2040.

 

Have you noticed in the magazine reviews that models are often marked down if they don't have "features"? Unsurprisingly diesels with lights usually score higher than steam locomotives in that category.

 

 

 

Jason

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55 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

there is a whole new generation that will expect things like that as the norm.

 

Perhaps there's room for the giraffe to make a return then. Although this time he'll be DCC- rather than magnet-controlled.

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5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

All the ex drivers and firemen I've ever talked to have confirmed it was total nonsense. Just why would you even contemplate it? 

 

I blame TV programmes such as Blue Peter and hipster restaurants for perpetrating the myth. Yeah I really want to pay £50 to have my food served on a shovel....:nono:

 

 

Jason

 

Have a look at this: http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/bfast.htm

 

No myth at all. 

 

 

As for hygiene, two of the best things for cleaning are steam and heat, no shortage of those on a footplate. 

 

I was first shown how to cook off a shovel by an ex-Guildford driver. 

 

Roy

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6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Who knows what people will expect in 2040.

 

A subject probably worthy of a thread of its own. Today's gimmicks are all too often offered as a distraction from or substitute for substandard design and engineering in the unfashionable but basic areas of wheels, frames and rods.

 

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Have you noticed in the magazine reviews that models are often marked down if they don't have "features"? Unsurprisingly diesels with lights usually score higher than steam locomotives in that category.

 

Agreed. Fortunately, fewer and fewer people are taking notice of what the dumbed-down press says.

 

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2 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Have a look at this: http://svsfilm.com/nineelms/bfast.htm

 

No myth at all. 

 

 

As for hygiene, two of the best things for cleaning are steam and heat, no shortage of those on a footplate. 

 

I was first shown how to cook off a shovel by an ex-Guildford driver. 

 

Roy

Ah but on jobs like that they no doubt had a chance to drop of the engine and answer a 'call of nature' should the need arise (although why they didn't also visit a handy messroom to cook food also remains an open question of course?   There were plenty of turns where that luxury wasn't available and the only alternative was using the shovel and i don't think many folk would have fancied cooking on it after that.

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I was certainly told plenty of stories involving shovel-cooked breakfasts by Canton men during my time as a guard there in the 70s.  One involved a fireman's breakfast disappearing up the chimney when the driver obeyed a shunter's instruction to make a move and opened the regulator; he was still having the mickey taken out of himself 20 years later...

 

Facilities on diesel locos varied; the 08s had proper electric hotplates and a grill, while most locos had some sort of hotplate.  The WR hydraulics were less well equipped in this respect, having 'food warming cupboards' which were pretty ineffective even at warming things, and quite useless for cooking.  One driver was in the habit of cooking half onions directly on the hotplate; they smelled marvellous!

 

As to the other thing shovels were sometimes used for, diesel locos had urinals in the engine rooms, but no facility for anything more than that.  Shunting engines, and AFAIK the likes of Class 14 or 20, had nothing.

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Veering off-topic from the off-topic, I read that it used to be the practice of the station café to dispose of unwanted onions in the firebox of the station pilot. On one occasion, the driver told the fireman to throw the bag of onions onto the top of the brick arch instead of onto the fire. Starving commuters were seen desperately seeking the source of the wonderful smell.

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14 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Veering off-topic from the off-topic, I read that it used to be the practice of the station café to dispose of unwanted onions in the firebox of the station pilot. On one occasion, the driver told the fireman to throw the bag of onions onto the top of the brick arch instead of onto the fire. Starving commuters were seen desperately seeking the source of the wonderful smell.

If the garlic had gone through to the bearing it would have been a really nice accompaniment for the onions :-)

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On 17/03/2019 at 09:36, No Decorum said:

Veering off-topic from the off-topic, I read that it used to be the practice of the station café to dispose of unwanted onions in the firebox of the station pilot. On one occasion, the driver told the fireman to throw the bag of onions onto the top of the brick arch instead of onto the fire. Starving commuters were seen desperately seeking the source of the wonderful smell.

Terry Essery tells this story in one of his "Firing Days at Saltley" books - the loco was the Birmingham New Street Midland side station pilot, and the occasion was Christmas Eve, when everything was closing early and travellers had little hope of finding any food until they reached their final destination.

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7 hours ago, Andy W said:

Terry Essery tells this story in one of his "Firing Days at Saltley" books - the loco was the Birmingham New Street Midland side station pilot, and the occasion was Christmas Eve, when everything was closing early and travellers had little hope of finding any food until they reached their final destination.

Wonderful books. Essery has the gift of informing and amusing just a bit better than anyone else.

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On 16/03/2019 at 22:31, Miss Prism said:

 

A subject probably worthy of a thread of its own. Today's gimmicks are all too often offered as a distraction from or substitute for substandard design and engineering in the unfashionable but basic areas of wheels, frames and rods.

 

 

Agreed. Fortunately, fewer and fewer people are taking notice of what the dumbed-down press says.

 

I'm fascinated as to why you think the press is 'dumbed-down' because it pays some attention to extra features provided on a model. Or was this just another opportunity to take a cheap shot? It would be interesting to see some evidence of models where features ( or gimmicks as you call them) are offered as a distraction from substandard design or engineering. Examples, please. (CJL)

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Features, or gimmicks if you prefer, are not in my view offered as distractions from bad modelling, but as a response to what the manufacturer perceives as market demand, or in other words what he thinks will sell models.  My preference would always be for a better fidelity to scale than an all singing all dancing model that did everything but did not pay sufficient regard to scale, and I am dubious, as I am sure Ms P and Dibber are, about the increase in selling price that is going to be the result.  I would rather see a good basic model I can afford than one with all sorts of feature that I can't; at least they are still being offered in non-DCC alternatives, and the gimmickry, or features if you prefer, are only available on the DCC version for those able and willing to spend the extra beans; I would assume that the 94xx's putative firebox glow, is a DCC item.  I believe the 94xx will be a highly accurate model in line with Bachmann's usual high standard, and as close to scale as can be done with RTR 00.

 

Our RTR models are very close to being as good as it is possible for a rational person to demand without daft price increases.  Where do we go to make them better?  Inside motion perhaps, or 'working' reversers?  Firemen who fire and drivers who moan when they don't make the tea?  I cannot off hand think of any newly designed model produced so far this century that has been more than a smidgeon off scale, and those few that have have been a smidgeon off have been slated mercilessly on sites such as this.  Most of what was produced in the last 2 decades of the previous century was by no means bad in terms of scale either, and some even earlier models are close enough to be capable of being worked up into passable representations.

 

Firebox glow in UK 00 dates back to the Triang M7, not a bad effort for it's time, and much better than some of the generic 0-6-0s from the same company, none of which had correct wheel spacing and one of which is still being produced.  The chuff chuff noises of some locos from the same stable were pretty dreadful, but at least couldn't have added much to the cost and were easy enough to disable.

 

I was looking at an 0 gauge Heljan Western in a shop window earlier today.  No doubt it is to scale closely enough, but I would have been very upset if I'd paid even the £500 deal for it.  Name and number plates were transfers, there was no attempt to model the air reservoir pipe, cock, or hose which seems daft when the train pipe, cock, and hose are very well represented, the sliding cab side windows need to be separate mouldings and look as though one can slide over the other in this scale, and the engine room windows reveal that there is an empty space where a couple of Maybachs and their equipment ought to reside but worst of all was the headcode, simply a transfer stuck on the front of the loco.  In 0 gauge I reckon such crudity is very obvious and less forgivable than in the smaller scales!

 

Are sprung buffers features or gimmicks?  I don't mind having them, but don't see the point on a loco with tension lock couplers.

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Having just seen a layout with tank locomotives that possess firebox glow I withdraw my previous comment about not seeing the point.  It does a actually work quite well on both tank and tender locomotives.  If we are heading to continental prices with Bachmann then I would like more of these extra features that they also have in european locomotives.

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21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Are sprung buffers features or gimmicks?  I don't mind having them, but don't see the point on a loco with tension lock couplers.

Etched nameplates are unneccessary, as is pre-fitting all the air pipes, and indeed you can argue etched grills or etched anything is unneccessary, afterall its painted.

 

but it adds to the feeling of quality, that you have a model and not a toy. It justifies in my head the price I pay.

 

ive still got loads of Lima 47’s, nothing wrong with them, do the job, look right and work fine, but my Bachmann ones are the ones I talk about... The Heljan ones to me, failed the grade.

 

The hobby is potentially reaching its Concorde moment, where past detail is no longer achievable and what comes after is both more expensive and compromised on the details, fortunately different manufacturers are heading at different speeds to this point, so we as consumers can be selective in our purchases, and decide if the alternative is worth trading up or to stick.

 

An example I would hold up here is the recent Brighton Belle, it is in my mind less superior than my earlier versions, despite the price increases. Other examples exist.

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