Bachmann 94xx

[The Stationmaster]

2 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Surely, if the GWR had ordered 200 locos it (and the subsequent nationalised railway’s WR) didn’t need, on the eve of nationalisation and at a time of a severely restricted and government controlled austerity economy in which the private loco builders were being encouraged to build locos for export to help with the crippling balance of payments problem, then BR would have cancelled such orders by about 00.01 on 1/1/48, even if compensation had to be paid to the private builders. I can think of no other example of a pre-nationalisation design being farmed out to private builders in this way.  Cancellation would have been approved by Government because private builder capacity to build for export would have been released. 
 

Dibber and Stationmaster are knowledgeable blokes whose views I respect, but there must have been an expectation of work for these locos when they were ordered, or the government would not have allowed the order in the first place, and that expectation must have continued into the early BR years or BR would have cancelled the orders. 
 

I think that what happened is that the traffic situation altered radically and very rapidly from the early 50s, and the work that the 94s were intended to perform, transfer freight and heavy trip work (over shorter distances in South Wales than you needed an 0-6-2T for), began to dry up even as the locos were being built and delivered.  This enabled a cull of pre-grouping 0-6-2Ts, completed by 1958, but the traffic was so rapidly vanishing that there was insufficient work for the new locos as well.  ‘My’ prototype, 8448, was built in 1954 and scrapped in 1959, which looks pretty pointless and unnecessary with the benefit of hindsight but one must view the matter from a 1947 perspective before making that judgement. 
 

What is in my view a real debacle, because the stark economic lesson of the 94xx should have been learned (anyone can make a mistake, but it takes a special effort from a particular sort of fool to repeat it, or perhaps a bunch of fools), is that in the WR made a point of replacing these locos, very clearly by now surplus to requirement, with diesel hydraulics, the D95xx in 1965, ordered in 1961 IIRC.  The work for the D95xx had effectively disappeared even before they were ordered, and they should never have been built; of course, the fact that they were an operational failure didn’t help...
 

I doubt if anyone was held responsible and sacked because of it, though someone must have been responsible and probably should have been sacked because of it! 

 

 

I think Irwell's 'Pannier Paers' do much to explain what happened and obviously if they had been ordered in the way some people suggest they almost certainly would have been cancelled, especially once Cook was in the chair at Swindon and effectively had sufficient authority to do so.   Simple fact is that for whateverv reason - and there were a number - the privately built engines took a long time to deliver and the work requirement was changing pretty drastically as they were being delivered.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was something of a disconnect between traffic needs - especially forward forecasts of traffic needs, and the R&M side in respect of orders for new engines (it certainly happened at Swindon in respect of steam overhauls in the early 1960s).  It is not entirely simple to look back from where we are nw to understand the way in which the railways lost traffic in the 1950s especially after the tipping point of the 1955 ASLE&F strike which greatly accelerated the loss of general g freight traffic.   But what is undeniable is that by the time the 94XX were being very belatedly delivered much of the work they might have been expected to do was vanishing.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think Irwell's 'Pannier Paers' do much to explain what happened and obviously if they had been ordered in the way some people suggest they almost certainly would have been cancelled, especially once Cook was in the chair at Swindon and effectively had sufficient authority to do so.   Simple fact is that for whateverv reason - and there were a number - the privately built engines took a long time to deliver and the work requirement was changing pretty drastically as they were being delivered.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there was something of a disconnect between traffic needs - especially forward forecasts of traffic needs, and the R&M side in respect of orders for new engines (it certainly happened at Swindon in respect of steam overhauls in the early 1960s).  It is not entirely simple to look back from where we are nw to understand the way in which the railways lost traffic in the 1950s especially after the tipping point of the 1955 ASLE&F strike which greatly accelerated the loss of general g freight traffic.   But what is undeniable is that by the time the 94XX were being very belatedly delivered much of the work they might have been expected to do was vanishing.

If 94xx’s were good money after bad, it begs the question why the 14’s were even ordered... it was just more of the same.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2020 by adb968008

[AY Mod]

94xx frothers may be interested in the post I've made in the Locomotion 9400 topic which gives some more views.

 

 

[gwrrob]

Is that for all liveries coming @AY Mod

['CHARD]

1 minute ago, gwrrob said:

Is that for all liveries coming @AY Mod

 

It's for the National Collection/ Locomotion example. 

[gwrrob]

11 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

 

It's for the National Collection/ Locomotion example. 

 

Yes I know but I was wondering if the BR versions were arriving then too.

[AY Mod]

42 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

Yes I know but I was wondering if the BR versions were arriving then too.

 

I would say the clue is to look at the Bachmann website for projected deliveries.

 

[The Johnster]

They'll be coming round the mountain when they come, then, not too long now.  Andy had a 9402 at the start of this, so that version at least is in the UK and can't be far away from distribution and delivery.  I am content to wait for my 9487 version pre-ordered from Rails/Sheffield, hopefully before xmas! but it's not the end of the world if it's later.  What would be frustrating would be for it to be sent out before xmas and be somewhere in transit over the holly. 

[AY Mod]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

so that version at least is in the UK and can't be far away from distribution and delivery

 

An incorrect assumption. Bachmann airfreight a small batch over for final inspection and a number are circulated for review. Whilst that happens the remaining production models travel by sea so a model arriving for review normally means it will be on shelves around 4-6 weeks from when we see them. I'm sure I've covered that before.

 

I knew you'd be getting unnecessarily over-excited. Now I'll need a mop for the little puddle.

[The Johnster]

And I'd tried so hard to control myself as well...

 

No little puddle fortunately, and I can live with 5-6 weeks; the fact that the model clearly now actually exists is enough for now...

[tomparryharry]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If 94xx’s were good money after bad, it begs the question why the 14’s were even ordered... it was just more of the same.

 

 

 

Aaah, but they had to make both the 94xx, and the 95xx.

 

If not, both Bachmann & Heljan would have run out of product a long time ago.....

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

If 94xx’s were good money after bad, it begs the question why the 14’s were even ordered... it was just more of the same.

 

 

Yes and no.   By the time they were delivered that was very definitely the case as they were of fairly limited utility with not much work available for them - but note 'not much' which meant there was some.   But the situation then was considerably changed from the time at which they had been conceived and the time at which work began on them.  And things were not helped by the very leisurely pace of building where frames for some sat in A Shop at Swindon for over a year with not much being added to them.

 

But overall they were too late for their intended duties and for whatever reason the order was never cut back or cancelled.

[Flying Pig]

15 hours ago, AY Mod said:

I knew you'd be getting unnecessarily over-excited. Now I'll need a mop for the little puddle.

 

Fudo is waiting for the 94xx too. No puddles here.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Flying Pig

[melmerby]

36 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes and no.   By the time they were delivered that was very definitely the case as they were of fairly limited utility with not much work available for them - but note 'not much' which meant there was some.   But the situation then was considerably changed from the time at which they had been conceived and the time at which work began on them.  And things were not helped by the very leisurely pace of building where frames for some sat in A Shop at Swindon for over a year with not much being added to them.

 

But overall they were too late for their intended duties and for whatever reason the order was never cut back or cancelled.

Hi Mike

Are you sure they were 94XXs?

 

Only 9400-9 were built by Swindon and were delivered in 1947, the rest came from outside contractors

The next to follow were Bagnall ordered ones numbered from 8400 on in 1949 and RSH & YE examples from 1950.

The last of all being 3409 in October 1956 from Yorkshire.

9499 has the distinction of the shortest* "working" life of 4yr 2m, with loads of others not far behind.

 

*the shortest working life of a new BR steam loco not scrapped because of accidents etc. (the Leaders don't count!)

 

[Paul.Uni]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Hi Mike

Are you sure they were 94XXs?

 

Only 9400-9 were built by Swindon and were delivered in 1947, the rest came from outside contractors

The next to follow were Bagnall ordered ones numbered from 8400 on in 1949 and RSH & YE examples from 1950.

The last of all being 3409 in October 1956 from Yorkshire.

9499 has the distinction of the shortest* "working" life of 4yr 2m, with loads of others not far behind.

 

*the shortest working life of a new BR steam loco not scrapped because of accidents etc. (the Leaders don't count!)

 

The question being answered was about the Class 14 diesels

[AY Mod]

32 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

Fudo is waiting for the 94xx too.

 

Dare I say this should be suitable attire for some on significant announcement days and at major shows. The followers of a particular railway may need to don them tomorrow for an announcement. I can't tell you which yet. 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

Dare I say this should be suitable attire for some on significant announcement days and at major shows. The followers of a particular railway may need to don them tomorrow for an announcement. I can't tell you which yet. 

  
You mean to say there IS actually life beyond the arrival of the sacred Hawksworth Pannier ? 

[No Decorum]

13 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Dare I say this should be suitable attire for some on significant announcement days and at major shows. The followers of a particular railway may need to don them tomorrow for an announcement. I can't tell you which yet. 

[adb968008]

10 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

  
You mean to say there IS actually life beyond the arrival of the sacred Hawksworth Pannier ? 

Which sacred Hawksworth Pannier ?

Theres 2 dont forget.

[Ian Hargrave]

10 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Which sacred Hawksworth Pannier ?

Theres 2 dont forget.

 

Ah yes of course,how remiss of me on that significant point. Maybe that’s Andy’s announcement then ? 

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Dare I say this should be suitable attire for some on significant announcement days and at major shows. The followers of a particular railway may need to don them tomorrow for an announcement. I can't tell you which yet. 

 

LBSCR K3 mogul? 

 

Whatever it is, I've got a premonition it's a pre-grouping locomotive, west of the Dogger Bank...

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, No Decorum said:

 

Quite.  Please let it be the Cleator and Workington Junction Railway - it only has two fans and they're both over ninety.  Some of the alternatives don't bear thinking about - protective clothing may be required.

 

[No Decorum]

I just can’t resist. Who is going to announce? Not Bachmann; announcements made. Not Hornby; saving for the annual fest. Not Heljan; too busy. Not Dapol; ditto. Not Accurascale; not ready yet. Rapido. Bill is a GWR man. What GWR loco is missing? It’s a Saint!

 

Have your AA guns aimed at me tomorrow!

[tomparryharry]

0

Edited November 12, 2020 by tomparryharry
Deleted

[Flying Pig]

52 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

M&SWJR Galloping Gertie.

 

That would be ok.  The Amalgamated Society of Midland and South Western Junction Railway Enthusiasts, Including Followers of its Antecedent and Successor Companies and Incorporating The Ogbournes Railway Study Group generally has more initials than members and they'll probably just have a quiet pint in the Patriot's Arms.