Bachmann 94xx

[PMP]

12 minutes ago, Pinehill said:

A bit late after you have bought the thing! Why do electronic track cleaners cause a problem?

Eh? It’s on their web site, and in the instructions, that’s more than adequate notification.

re track cleaners it’s to do with the wavelength/frequency as far as I’m aware. It’s been known about and publicised since the Portescap and Relco cleaners were available back in the 80’s

[The Johnster]

I don't think so, Pinehill, or we'd have heard a lot of complaints from J72 owners, who seem happy enough with their purchases.  You may well be right about them having to switch off track cleaners, which send high frequency signal down the rails to loosen deposits, or something, but that is not the same as having to buy new DC controllers; Bachmann have not stated that their coreless motors will not run with conventional or for that matter feedback DC controllers.  You can of course always switch the feedback out of circuit.

[MikeParkin65]

5 minutes ago, Pinehill said:

So everybody who has bought the J72 & uses a feedback controller with DC (not DCC) has had to go & buy a non feedback unit along with doing away with their electronic track cleaners! Incidentally, Gaugemaster say there is no problem using an electronic track cleaner with coreless motor! What a mess!

Certainly this is the first modern model I've had that wont play nicely with a standard trainset controller. I only use it for running testing/running in as the layout is DCC but this is surely a problem for those using DC. Are Hornby trainset controllers 'feedback'? Must admit I'm not really sure what that means but sympathise if DC users aren't able to use the latest models.

[PMP]

10 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Must admit I'm not really sure what that means but sympathise if DC users aren't able to use the latest models.

Well they can. I’ve used DC to test this model under discussion. Both Gaugemaster, a W, and a discontinued E. It didn’t like the duette 1980’s era controller, but I’m not surprised, that’s old technology and i can’t guarantee that it has no faults in it despite it’s good condition.

[MikeParkin65]

9 minutes ago, PMP said:

Well they can. I’ve used DC to test this model under discussion. Both Gaugemaster, a W, and a discontinued E. It didn’t like the duette 1980’s era controller, but I’m not surprised, that’s old technology and i can’t guarantee that it has no faults in it despite it’s good condition.

Does this count as old technology? As i said I have no dog in this fight as I am Dcc but I am surprised a modern loco wont run on what I imagine is a pretty common DC controller. 

[Ian Hargrave]

I have used  a Gaugemaster D controller with coreless motors...including Faulhaber... for over twenty years with no problems . But I was advised then (1998) NOT to use my feedback controller with such because perceived wisdom then was that it would cause burn out. Whether or not this still applies with current ( excuse the unintended pun ) technology I cannot say. It might be useful if an all encompassing standard were published stating guidelines.
 

How many times have we had this conversation ? And it still keeps on going.

 

[PMP]

31 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Does this count as old technology? As i said I have no dog in this fight as I am Dcc but I am surprised a modern loco wont run on what I imagine is a pretty common DC controller. 

Yup it’s a Hornby R965, and having just tried the 94xx on one I can confirm it runs like a bag of spanner’s.
However remove that and replace it with a DC Gaugemaster W, and it’ll run perfectly. 

[Happy Hippo]

4 minutes ago, PMP said:

Yup it’s a Hornby R965, and having just tried the 94xx on one I can confirm it runs like a bag of spanner’s.

 

Nothing like a bit of prototypical fidelity.

[No Decorum]

19 hours ago, PMP said:

Re the chassis, these are the three OO Bachmann Pannier chassis’

L to R

94xx coreless 

64/74xx Cased standard

57/8750xx Cased standard (Note this is a Mk1 DC 8750 chassis)

 

That’s an eye-opener! My understanding is that the main reason for the use of a coreless motor was to save space; necessary in small locos so that space for speakers and DCC sockets can be provided. Yet the motor of the 94XX looks bigger than the traditional motors in the other two Panniers. 

[Black 5 Bear]

Morley DC Controllers are designed to be used with locos with coreless motors should anyone be thinking of updating.

An excellent product at an affordable price.

Looking forward to my pre-order, late crest BR 94xx, hopefully in time for Christmas...

[Mikkel]

15 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Theres a 4th, Your missing the old split chassis can motor that Bachmann used also on the 57xx

 

 

15 hours ago, PMP said:

There’s no current split chassis pannier in the Bachmann range. The three chassis’ illustrated are what you’ll find under any current pannier model in the range.

 

Perhaps adb968008 means the one on the left here. But no longer used, as you say.

 

 

Looking at your photo, it seems the top of the 94xx is higher than the 57xx/8750 chassis? (I had a plan to use the new chassis for something else, looks like it won't work). 

 

[Legend]

Good information here . Thanks to PMP for doing the testing . As I said my concern is for the Caley 812 , although I’m not sure what type of motor will be used on it .

 

I do think this deserves more prominence than it’s getting . As PMP points out running on a trainset controller it runs like a bag of spanner’s , but the larger Hornby HM2000 controller is also a feedback controller , so I can imagine this could be a fairly common set up with people expanding their layouts . 
 

Thanks to Ian too .  I have a Gaugemaster DS controller  so glad he has found a “d” not to have any issues .

[PMP]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

Looking at your photo, it seems the top of the 94xx is higher than the 57xx/8750 chassis? (I had a plan to use the new chassis for something else, looks like it won't work). 

 

I'd not included the pre 2008 split chassis as it's long defunct and irrelevant, but in this thread theres been reference to the other two current types including their motors and installation.

I can measure the height of the 94xx chassis for you, I'm certain its a few mm taller than the 57/8750.  its not immediately to hand, but theres more pics of the of the chassis here  https://albionyard.net/2020/11/27/Bachmann-94xx-pannier-review-35-025/ if thats of use in the meantime. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by PMP

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Good information here . Thanks to PMP for doing the testing . As I said my concern is for the Caley 812 , although I’m not sure what type of motor will be used on it .

 

I do think this deserves more prominence than it’s getting . As PMP points out running on a trainset controller it runs like a bag of spanner’s , but the larger Hornby HM2000 controller is also a feedback controller , so I can imagine this could be a fairly common set up with people expanding their layouts . 
 

Thanks to Ian too .  I have a Gaugemaster DS controller  so glad he has found a “d” not to have any issues .

 
One other message I am getting strongly here and it is that maybe it’s time some of us upgraded our electronics and invested in a new controller......or have I misread the situation ?  Why run a third decade 21st C model on equipment that in some cases is 40/50 years old ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Pinehill said:

Have you or anyone else used a feedback controller with the newer cordless J72?

 

I don't have a feedback controller. I've got a Gaugemaster DS and a small single track one 100M which I assume isn't feedback. 

 

I have tried it with an old controller though and it was fine. A Lima trainset one from the early 1980s. Basically the same as Hornby sold. Also with a Bachmann trainset controller I got with the Midland Marvel trainset. I use those for testing and running things in.

 

I did ditch the track cleaners though as I have a couple of Rapido models.

 

The Lima is this one. Still available in the age of Virgin HSTs so possibly not as ancient as I thought.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited December 7, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[Wickham Green too]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

......... Also, good to know I'm not the only one with a scarred and gnarly cutting mat...

Ever tried spilling half a bottle of Plastic Weld over one ? - interesting results ......... an' didn't do the Oxford brake van interior much good either !

[The Johnster]

I can remember back in the 70s newer models with the then prevalent pancake motors not running that well on trainset controllers; better performances were avaialble from better quality controllers, so this is not a new phenomenom.  Back then, the only coreless in town was the Portescap, which was a very high quality motor but prone to instant burn out if overloaded, even for a nanosecond, and this was not suitable for use with the feedback electronic controllers of the day. 

 

Significantly,  current (sorry) DC controllers are little more advanced over those electronic controllers, while DCC has developed steadily over the intervening decades.

[Captain Kernow]

For what it's worth, I have used my AMR slow speed hand-held controller on locos fitted with Portescap motors, with no apparent problems.

 

[Dunsignalling]

The feedback on AMR controllers is fairly mild and probably won't do any harm, especially if the loco is running on a BLT or shunting layout where it won't be moving far or for long at a time.

 

Most other feedback controllers are less subtle and, especially if used in conjunction with continuous running, will tend to cause overheating of coreless motors.

 

Probably not going to instantly wreck most motors, but won't do them a lot of good over time.

 

John

[Pinehill]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I don't think so, Pinehill, or we'd have heard a lot of complaints from J72 owners, who seem happy enough with their purchases.  You may well be right about them having to switch off track cleaners, which send high frequency signal down the rails to loosen deposits, or something, but that is not the same as having to buy new DC controllers; Bachmann have not stated that their coreless motors will not run with conventional or for that matter feedback DC controllers.  You can of course always switch the feedback out of circuit.

Not sure if they would know to switch off track cleaners as the J72 packaging etc makes no mention of them!

[Pinehill]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 
One other message I am getting strongly here and it is that maybe it’s time some of us upgraded our electronics and invested in a new controller......or have I misread the situation ?  Why run a third decade 21st C model on equipment that in some cases is 40/50 years old ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not running old equipment here Ian just the latest feedback controller from Gaugemaster! The problem for many of us is the introduction (I no not why) of coreless motors in the models from the biggest supplier! If they are going that way then I am sure your Caley will be coreless!

[Ian Hargrave]

5 minutes ago, Pinehill said:

Not running old equipment here Ian just the latest feedback controller from Gaugemaster! The problem for many of us is the introduction (I no not why) of coreless motors in the models from the biggest supplier! If they are going that way then I am sure your Caley will be coreless!

  
 AFIK Bachmann appear to be the only manufacturer embracing this type of motor other than the late unlamented  DJM.I think you are confusing me with Legend in the matter of the Caley. Have you considered contacting both Gaugemaster and Bachmann on the issue ?

You might get a resolution.

[New Haven Neil]

Interestingly, since DJM got mentioned, I recall he said that the future for all manufacturers would be coreless, as most general manufacturing of small motors (presumably in China) was heading in this direction so conventional motors would become unavailable in time.  I wonder if we are beginning to see this happening?

[Paul.Uni]

8 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

  
 AFIK Bachmann appear to be the only manufacturer embracing this type of motor other than the late unlamented  DJM.

Rapido used a coreless motor in the J70 Tram

[Steamport Southport]

3 minutes ago, New Haven Neil said:

Interestingly, since DJM got mentioned, I recall he said that the future for all manufacturers would be coreless, as most general manufacturing of small motors (presumably in China) was heading in this direction so conventional motors would become unavailable in time.  I wonder if we are beginning to see this happening?

 

I think Rapido said something similar.

 

For those that haven't bought a Rapido model they have warnings all over the instructions about the coreless motor "issue". 

 

 

 

Jason