LNWR Mansion-House coaches

[Guy Rixon]

I am building a train of LNWR "Mansion House" coaches, as used on the Outer Circle service, and I'm stuck on details of the livery. I know that they were vanished teak with the classes of compartments shown by large, gilt numbers, but I don't have a photo that shows the numbers clearly enough to select transfers. I'd particularly like to know how the numbers were shaded. Does anyone have information or good pictures?

[Penlan]

I don't have a broadside photo of the 28' mansion House stock that shows the Class Numbers (and other lettering) clearly....

But the implication from various sources is the Class Numbers where similar to the North London Rly., but the tops of the '3' were rounded, not flat,  As Wolverton also turned out the NLR coaches with the tops of the '3' rounded, one assumes they had a stock of '3' transfers, and thus used them on the LNWR Mansion House stock too.  There was also a couple of LNWR 'Coats of Arms' applied too.

The actual numbers were gilt with fine black, white and blue lines for the 1st Class doors and the lower orders had  '2' or '3' with black, white and red fine lines - good luck with the fine lines.  I've never seen the height of the numerals mentioned anywhere, but assume them to be approx., 8.5".

I would use the LMS Class numerals.

 

As always for me all E. & O. E.,    

 

This is a NLR, LNWR Wolverton Built Coach to show the numerals.

 

 

Hopefully you have all the roof details and the 16' long roof board lettering to hand?

BROAD STREET, WILLESDEN, KENSINGTON & MANSION HOUSE. CHANGE AT WILLESDEN FOR MAIN LINE',  looking at the coach roof, the board looks a little longer, bearing in mind it's suppose to be 16' on a 28' coach, I might have preferred perhaps 18', more room to get all that lettering in.

Plus of course those boards above the buffer beam on the end - 'BROAD St & MANSION HOUSE. NO. XX', and the 3ft long boards above the windows with 'LONDON & NORTH WESTERN TRAIN'.

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Penlan

[Guy Rixon]

Penlan, many thanks for all that. I had the shot of the carriage roof at Broad Street (although your scan is clearer than mine), but not the side view of the NLR equivalent. I knew about the roof boards and the side boards but not the end boards. The number on the end boards is a set number, presumably?

 

My set will have different roof-boards reading "Willesden, Euston, Strand and Cannon Street" for my contrafactual railway. 

[Guy Rixon]

 

These are the closest transfers I can find that cover all three classes (HMRS LMS sheet only has 1st and 3rd, of course). They are SECR from the Maunsell-era period. The letter forms are about right but they are more yellow than gilt. I may use these and touch up the yellow with some gold ink.

[Penlan]

The number on the end boards is a set number, presumably?

Yes 

[Penlan]

The roof scan is from the excellent NRM book (publisher HMSO) 'North London Railway : A Pictorial Record' though I know I've seen it elsewhere too.

My copy was bought years ago, the price £3.50 on the back. - Published 1979, I think I bought it in 1998.

[Western Star]

Try this for interest.

 

https://basilicafields.wordpress.com/category/outer-circle/

[Guy Rixon]

I've got to a stage where I need to change the fittings from those supplied in the coach kits.I set details down here in case they are useful to anybody else.

1. The 1890/1891 coaches had the early, vertical vacuum-sack, with the cruciform brake-crank and a vacuum reservoir. The kit has the horizontal vacuum sack with no brake-crank or reservoir. The cruciform linkage is quite complex.
2. The kit has the axleboxes sometimes known as "bulbous". I'm fairly certain, pending examination of photos with a glass, that the Mansion-House coaches would have had the "flat fronted" oil boxes. The latter ere introduced about the time the coached were built. The "pointed front" axleboxes were introduced in 1901 and I don't know when the "bulbous" boxes started.
3. The kit has gas-lighting fittings but nothing for electric lighting, and the coaches had been converted to the latter by my period. I need battery boxes. There should also be a dynamo.

The standard reference suggests that the fittings were in common with the LNWR's 30'1" coaches, for which I have a copy of A.M. Gunn's excellent detail-drawings. Therefore, some precision is possible.

 

I'm considering making a print for the brake parts, all pre-assembled with the linkages. This will save many hours of soldering. The axleboxes can also be printed. I could print the battery boxes, but it's been suggested that LRM now have these parts as castings.

 

Would anybody else be interested in these parts? The brake parts would be applicable to various NPCS as well as the 6-wheeled and 4-wheeled coaches.

 

EDIT: afte peering at photos, the axleboxes in the kit now seem to match, so I won't be printing replacements. I'll still be printing the brake parts.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Guy Rixon

[Argos]

Hi Guy,

 

I have a pile of 7mm LNWR coach kits to build at some point and the intention is to model the earlier vertical vacuum sac brake where applicable.

The parts you are drawing up would be useful if they could be scaled up.

 

Thanks

[ChrisN]

Guy,

I will at some point need a number, probably less than 5, through LNWR coaches for my 1895 Cambrian layout.  The favourites at the moment are 30' 1" 6 wheelers with the sides cut on a Silhouette cutter so if you have the fittings to go with them then I would certainly be interested.  I am working in 4mm.

[Guy Rixon]

Argos & ChrisN: thanks for the expression of interest. I've started the CAD for the brake gear, but it's 'orrible complex so it may be a while before I get it done. I've just started a Mansion-House chassis that really needs it, so I have incentive. I am doing the CAD so that it can be compiled for either 4mm or 7mm scale without fiddling.

[ChrisN]

Argos & ChrisN: thanks for the expression of interest. I've started the CAD for the brake gear, but it's 'orrible complex so it may be a while before I get it done. I've just started a Mansion-House chassis that really needs it, so I have incentive. I am doing the CAD so that it can be compiled for either 4mm or 7mm scale without fiddling.

 

Guy,

There is no rush.  My rate of progress makes snails look like dragster racers.  I am currently working my way through some MSLR coaches, then I ought to do some Cambrian ones as it is a Cambrian layout, so if it is not GWR stock after that it will be LNWR.

[Guy Rixon]

(EDIT: changed the screen-shot of the CAD for a clearer one. Same CAD.)

 

I now have the CAD for the brake parts and Shapeways' robot considers it printable in 4mm scale. There is still a little work to do on the details before attempting a test print.

 

The part shown is for a coach without handbrake. I need to make two variants, one for 30'1" coaches with a handbrake in a central compartment and one for mansion-House 28' coaches with the handbrake in an end compartment. The former have a lever arrangement that connects with the clutch on the cruciform crank. The latter I think have the handbrake connected to the cruciform crank by chain and pulleys, somewhat like the arrangements for the chain-brake coaches. I can't see another way of making the connection, and will have to make this part approximate as it's not shown on the drawings I have.

 

I've left out the brake pipework from the print. Most of it is too fine to print and the section of the train pipe, where it curves into view below frame level, could more easily be represented by a bent wire.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Guy Rixon

[Argos]

Looks good Guy, 

 

Having these available would have saved me a couple of evenings per carriage fabricating out of brass ( and nowhere near as detailed).

 

Still have some carriages to attack.

[Guy Rixon]

Variant with chain-operated handbrake. The chain linkage is copied from GA of a D359 (30'1" 3rd brake) and I presume that the same arrangement was used on the 28' stock (information to the contrary welcomed!). The AI at Shapeways was picky about the chain and I've had to make it a bit chunkier than scale.

 

Last one to be done is the handbrake with a yoke linkage (for where the compartment layout allowed the brake standard to be right above the under-body gubbins). When that is passed as printable I'll get test prints and, all being well, put them in the shop.

 

BTW, these things are cheap: under £4 in FUD for 4mm scale.

[Guy Rixon]

Done, and the man from Shapeways, he say yes! test prints to follow.

[Guy Rixon]

One coach of the train has got as far as lettering. This is the 1897 strengthening 3rd from Set 7, which I'm going to portray in its 8-coach, post-1908 formation.

 

The transfers are all HMRS pressfix. The running numbers are from the LNWR sheet. but the class numbers on the doors are from sheet 9 SR Maunsell Loco and Coach insignia with LSWR. These latter numbers are properly gilt and a better match than the bright-yellow "fairground ride" insignia from the SECR.

 

I desperately need to weather down the black on the underframe.

Edited March 2, 2021 by Guy Rixon

[Guy Rixon]

The coach from the previous post now joined by the refurbished model of brake-3rd 272 (one I made earlier). The roof on the brake-3rd is not finished yet and yes, I will fix that warp. Two down, six to go.