Lined green locos - did they ever work goods duties?

[bike2steam]

 

 

Duchesses could also be used on perishable freight. Here are a couple of pictures of members of the class on Holyhead-Broad Street meat trains:

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645258869/h2e13b7f9#h2e13b7f9

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p645258869/h3fbc82f2#h3fbc82f2

 

(They were used on meat trains to Broad Street from Carlisle.)

Thanks pH, for answering a 55 year old question I've often asked and , 'till now, never got an answer to - one day, in the early 1960's I saw a Duchess at the station throat at Broad Street, and wondered what the hell it was doing there ?!?!

Edited June 30, 2017 by bike2steam

[Ken.W]

 

But even elsewhere, shed masters would in extremis use green locos for mundane goods work. Even the mighty

Gresley A4s had a power classification of 8P6F. Mind you, shunting with a screw reverser was no sinecure.

 

Ian

Goods work wasn't necessarily viewed as mundane. Many of the EC express freights, especially the Fish and Meat trains, and of coarse the famous 'Scotch Goods' from Kings X Goods to Edinburgh, were actually diagrammed for pacific haulage, including A4s, and also the V2s which were actually designed initially for such work before proving themselves equally capable of express work.

Far from being mundane, in an old ECML WTT I have, the Fish and Meat trains bear the instruction "Takes precedence over all trains other than east coast expresses"

[pH]

Thanks pH, for answering a 55 year old question I've often asked and , 'till now, never got an answer to - one day, in the early 1960's I saw a Duchess at the station throat at Broad Street, and wondered what the hell it was doing there ?!?!

 

You are welcome!

[LMS2968]

Goods work wasn't necessarily viewed as mundane. Many of the EC express freights, especially the Fish and Meat trains, and of coarse the famous 'Scotch Goods' from Kings X Goods to Edinburgh, were actually diagrammed for pacific haulage, including A4s, and also the V2s which were actually designed initially for such work before proving themselves equally capable of express work.

Far from being mundane, in an old ECML WTT I have, the Fish and Meat trains bear the instruction "Takes precedence over all trains other than east coast expresses"

This was so very true. Goods traffic was the lifeblood of the railways for so many years and far outweighed the income from passenger work. The operators knew this; it was largely the enthusiasts who regarded it as mundane.

[bike2steam]

You are welcome!

Yes, most annoying, the porter at the platform gates wouldn't let me on the platform to go and see the loco, for an 11 year old train-spotter it was frustrating as I couldn't make out the number of the big maroon liveried beast.

[clecklewyke]

Goods work wasn't necessarily viewed as mundane. 

 

 Of course not but the original question was about pick-up goods, not express goods. Fast goods needed a fast loco - can someone remind us of the story of a notorious Kings Cross driver catching up th Talisman while driving the down Aberdeen? Was it Bill Hoole?

 

 

Ian

Edited July 1, 2017 by clecklewyke

[coachmann]

Colour was barely a consideration. In anycase, the Western Region slapped green on all manner of locos without consistency for a number of years. The question would revolve around; was it fit for purpose, up to the task of performing the whole duty cycle, and did it fit in with weight and other restrictions. 

Edited July 1, 2017 by coachmann

[Marshall5]

 Of course not but the original question was about pick-up goods, not express goods. Fast goods needed a fast loco - can someone remind us of the story of a notorious Kings Cross driver catching up th Talisman while driving the down Aberdeen? Was it Bill Hoole?

 

 

Ian

It was Bill Hoole - in fact the story has been mentioned on here several times and more recently on Nat. Pres. http://railways.national-preservation.com/threads/266-5-grove-road-w-c-talisman.867156/#post-1726301 Apparently this wasn't a one off once reaching Hatfield 27m in 20 mins!

Bill was a real gentleman - gave me my first cab ride (at age 10) - on Prince.  

Ray.

Edited July 1, 2017 by Marshall5

[The Johnster]

Colour was barely a consideration. In anycase, the Western Region slapped green on all manner of locos without consistency for a number of years. The question would revolve around; was it fit for purpose, up to the task of performing the whole duty cycle, and did it fit in with weight and other restrictions. 

 

Very much the shed foreman's attitude; locos were allocated to jobs based on route availability, power rating, and whether the could be steamed in time.  A working would require, say, a 4F rated loco of RA 5 , or yellow on the WR, and if one wasn't available within that RA, a 4MT or 4P that was would be substituted.  Driver knowledge was not a factor with steam engines, and all drivers were considered to understand enough about how they worked to drive all engines.  The topcoat of paint is only to seal the primer, and serves no other purpose.  Hence the common usage of lined green 5MT 56xx on 5F work in South Wales; there were no 5F locos in the area.

[Steamport Southport]

It was a good question though. Especially as some people are from the generation that certain livery locomotives can only pull wagons or carriages from that company or sector.

 

"What, you've only got an Inter City class 47, we can't use that as the vans are RES".

 

That was actually happening at one point, even though they were still owned by BR.

 

Someone even wrote a satirical book about it.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thomas-Privatised-Engine-Incledon-Clark/dp/1857800222

 

 

 

Jason

[pH]

Of course not but the original question was about pick-up goods, not express goods.

 

Well then - the daily pickup goods on the Gourock line was often powered by a lined green engine in the late 1950s through to 1962. An engine supplied by Polmadie shed, usually one of its own, would work an early passenger train to Gourock, arriving about 8.30. It would then work a pickup goods back. When Polmadie still had Jubilees, they were often used. After they were transferred away, a Clan would often appear. Once Polmadie's Clans had been withdrawn (December 1962), anything could turn up, though almost always a tender engine (always black, though). I think tender engines were used because of a shortage, perhaps even absence, of water columns between Gourock and Paisley.

[bike2steam]

Thank god the Western Region painted it's mixed traffic locos in green, at least it made a better variety of colours at the loco sheds - 'ang on a bit, they were so badly work stained ( or 'weathered') you couldn't tell!!

[The Stationmaster]

Considering the state in which they arrived on the GC in, I'm surprised they were trusted with even that kind of work.

 

The worst trip I have ever behind steam was behind an Annesley 'Scot', on the the midnight Marylebone - Manchester sleeper in 1963.  I reckon it must have lost about 45 minutes in running from Marylebone to Aylesbury where those of us who bothered to look out of a droplight were treated to the entertaining sight of most of the fire being thrown out.  After about 30 minutes of that we staggered on to Woodford where the 'Scot' came off to be replaced by a typically sprightly Black 5 which in turn - and regrettably to my mind - was in turn replaced at Leicester by, of all things, an EE Type 4 which even more insultingly, as far as I was concerned, worked right through to Manchester.

 

My first and last trip behind a 'Scot' and not a particularly pleasurable experience.

[phil-b259]

This was so very true. Goods traffic was the lifeblood of the railways for so many years and far outweighed the income from passenger work. The operators knew this; it was largely the enthusiasts who regarded it as mundane.

 

Careful now.

 

As far as British Railways as a whole was concerned (or three out of the big 4) your statement is correct. However while I don't have the exact figures to hand, things were far more balanced in revenue terms when we turn to the Southern Railway / Region

Edited July 2, 2017 by phil-b259

[LMS2968]

Yeah, but that's the other side of the Thames. That doesn't count!

 

But more seriously - and nearer home - the original Liverpool & Manchester Railway was set up to provide an alternative to the canals for goods traffic, but this didn't really come up to expectations. The passenger traffic more than compensated, though. But overall...

Edited July 2, 2017 by LMS2968

[The Johnster]

The Barry Railway's Vale of Glamorgan extension was laid out for 50mph running by unfitted coal trains and return empties.  Aberthaw, Llantwit Major, and Southerndown Road stations had loops with platforms set back from the main running lines, so that passenger trains could be looped to give the mineral traffic a clear run; such was the importance given to, not just goods, but mineral traffic as the railway's most important and profitable business.  The Cardiff Railway, which never really got off the ground, laid out passenger loops at stations in the same way for the same reason; passengers could wait, coal made more money and was therefore more important!

Edited July 3, 2017 by The Johnster

[coachmann]

Thank god the Western Region painted it's mixed traffic locos in green, at least it made a better variety of colours at the loco sheds - 'ang on a bit, they were so badly work stained ( or 'weathered') you couldn't tell!!

The fact that locos were green on the Cambrian Coast section was very obvious. The final 'greenies' were the BR Class 3 2-6-2T's and they were kept clean right up to their transfer away to the Manchester area circa 1963-4. Cleaning in the Manchester area amounted to repainting the smokebox!

Edited July 3, 2017 by coachmann

[Karhedron]

I'm not sure that the Western Region painted any mixed traffic locos in lined black post 1956; all classes with P or MT power ratings carried lined green on all or some locos, as did the 7F 47xx.

The ex-LNWR style of lined black was detested by the (G)WR and as soon as green was allowed they slapped it on anything that came through the works.

[Zomboid]

Was lined black popular anywhere away from the LMR? I don't make much of a point of looking, but I can't remember seeing many pictures of former SR or LNER locos with that particular color scheme.

[coachmann]

Lined black was an official livery so yes it was all over the BR regions. When I first started spotting real locos as distinct from seeing them mostly in books, BR lined black was spreading like a rash. I think many would agree it looked awful on ex GWR locos. Personally I dont think it suited the LMS Compounds, Schools and LNER V2's, but then green would surely have look hideous on a Compound.

[phil-b259]

Was lined black popular anywhere away from the LMR? I don't make much of a point of looking, but I can't remember seeing many pictures of former SR or LNER locos with that particular color scheme.

 

Detested or not, those regions (and the LM / SCR regions) did stick to the BR centrally issued guidelines and everything they overhauled (i.e. anything less than a class 6 loco got lined black). The only smaller locos that you would see in Green were transfers from the Western / locos overhauled at Western region works such as the 3MTs

[phil-b259]

Lined black was an official livery so yes it was all over the BR regions. When I first started spotting real locos as distinct from seeing them mostly in books, BR lined black was spreading like a rash. I think many would agree it looked awful on ex GWR locos. Personally I dont think it suited the LMS Compounds, Schools and LNER V2's, but then green would surely have look hideous on a Compound.

 

Some Schools did get green, but that was I believe due to their power rating being on the boundary of the class 5 / 6.

[Zomboid]

Lined black was an official livery so yes it was all over the BR regions. When I first started spotting real locos as distinct from seeing them mostly in books, BR lined black was spreading like a rash. I think many would agree it looked awful on ex GWR locos. Personally I dont think it suited the LMS Compounds, Schools and LNER V2's, but then green would surely have look hideous on a Compound.

A green compound. No, that wouldn't work at all.

Personally my favorite would be unlined black, though that wasn't that well suited to all that shiny GWR garnish either.

[Marshall5]

As Larry says lined black was the official mixed traffic livery across all the regions.  However on the W.R. (always a law unto itself) many locos went straight from unlined black to lined green after the1956 livery changes.  Examples of this would be the GWR built Manors, some Granges & 43xx, 54xx/64xx and many Prairies.  There were some notable exceptions to the 'rules' such as a 57xx and a 15xx in lined black rather than unlined black which, as freight engines, they should be. 

Ray.

[The Stationmaster]

Some Schools did get green, but that was I believe due to their power rating being on the boundary of the class 5 / 6.

 

I believe all the survivors (after they left the SED) were in green livery - I certainly (fortunately) never saw one in lined black.

 

Detested or not, those regions (and the LM / SCR regions) did stick to the BR centrally issued guidelines and everything they overhauled (i.e. anything less than a class 6 loco got lined black). The only smaller locos that you would see in Green were transfers from the Western / locos overhauled at Western region works such as the 3MTs

 

Not quite correct as non Swindon design locos overhauled at Swindon were not only painted, if appropriate, in lined black but Swindon continued to paint such engines in lined black after reversion to the 'economy unlined green' for their own smaller designs.