Lined green locos - did they ever work goods duties?

[The Stationmaster]

As Larry says lined black was the official mixed traffic livery across all the regions.  However on the W.R. (always a law unto itself) many locos went straight from unlined black to lined green after the1956 livery changes.  Examples of this would be the GWR built Manors, some Granges & 43xx, 54xx/64xx and many Prairies.  There were some notable exceptions to the 'rules' such as a 57xx and a 15xx in lined black rather than unlined black which, as freight engines, they should be. 

Ray.

Not correct - the original painting instructions issued by Swindon in november 1956 for the reintroduction of green livery differentiated between  certain 'mainline passenger engines' and smaller passenger engines and mixed traffic engines with only the former to be lined out.  Thus things like 56XX, 43XX, and prairies were not lined out.  Linng out was extended to all engines being painted in green livery by an instruction issued late in January 1957 followed by a  further instruction in 1958 which led to some reversion to earlier styles and colours for particular classes.  I believe the official change to 'economy green' (i.e. without lining) for various smaller classes came a couple of years later but can't establish the exact date.

 

The pannier tanks in lined black were f course done for Paddington ecs working.

[bike2steam]

  I believe the official change to 'economy green' (i.e. without lining) for various smaller classes came a couple of years later but can't establish the exact date.

 

 

If I remember correctly the exGW classes were mostly large, and small prairies. 

Edited July 3, 2017 by bike2steam

[Marshall5]

SM, I think that you are being unfair branding my entire post "not correct".  I'm sure the painting instructions you quoted are correct but such was the infrequency of repaints (there are examples of locos still carrying the 1946 lettering in the late 50's) that members of the classes I quoted did in fact go straight from unlined black to lined green without ever being in lined MT livery (or unlined green for that matter!). 

Ray.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Marshall5

[The Johnster]

If I remember correctly the exGW classes were mostly large, and small prairies. 

 

There were also 56xx, 2251, and 43xx that appeared in unlined green.  I agree with Mike that the date is difficult to pin down, but I seem to remember mention of it in E R Mountord's 'Caerphilly Works' book, which I once possessed and wish I still did.  This useful tome also contains details of painted on cabside numbers as applied to some 56xx and panniers in lieu of proper brass or cast Iron numberplates.  These were painted in yellow against a black background in the style of the proper numberplates, very much like the way they are applied to many rtr GW models.   There were a lot of the author's photos, and the book is a very useful reference to anyone interested in the vagaries of the WR's steam locomotive liveries; indeed, it's not bad for earlier periods as well.

Edited July 3, 2017 by The Johnster

[bike2steam]

There were also 56xx, 2251, and 43xx that appeared in unlined green.  I agree with Mike that the date is difficult to pin down, but I seem to remember mention of it in E R Mountord's 'Caerphilly Works' book, which I once possessed and wish I still did.  This useful tome also contains details of painted on cabside numbers as applied to some 56xx and panniers in lieu of proper brass or cast Iron numberplates.  These were painted in yellow against a black background in the style of the proper numberplates, very much like the way they are applied to many rtr GW models.   There were a lot of the author's photos, and the book is a very useful reference to anyone interested in the vagaries of the WR's steam locomotive liveries; indeed, it's not bad for earlier periods as well.

Yes, I agree, a few, but I did say 'mostly' (a larger proportion of the individual classes, especially the 'tanner ones').

Edited July 4, 2017 by bike2steam

[Karhedron]

The pannier tanks in lined black were f course done for Paddington ecs working.

Yes, there were also a couple of cases of locos slipping through in lined black where the rest of the class was unlined for no apparent reason. Here is a list I have put together over the years of such oddities.

 

The BR-built Manors 7820-29 (only until they received modified blastpipes from 1952-54 at which point they received plain black before going green from 1957 onwards).

1411, 1465 1465, 1470, 5816

Collett Goods 2213, 2238

Dean Goods 2529

2-8-0 4702

Panniers 1503-5, 5409, 8762-4/71/3

Moguls 5370, 7313

Dukedogs 9009 and 9014

Small Prairies 4406, 4409 (with BRITISH RAILWAYS insignia), 5527

Large Prairies 4116, 4166, 4171, 5156, 5173, 5190

Granges 6809 and 6819.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Karhedron

[The Johnster]

Yes, I agree, a few, but I did say 'mostly' (a larger proportion of the individual classes, especially the 'tanner ones').

 

Fair enough.

[The Johnster]

Yes, there were also a couple of cases of locos slipping through in lined black where the rest of the class was unlined for no apparent reason. Here is a list I have put together over the years of such oddities.

 

The BR-built Manors 7820-29 (only until they received modified blastpipes from 1952-54 at which point they received plain black before going green from 1957 onwards).

1411, 1465 1465, 1470, 5816

Collett Goods 2213, 2238

Dean Goods 2529

2-8-0 4702

Panniers 1503-5, 5409, 8762-4/71/3

Moguls 5370, 7313

Dukedogs 9009 and 9014

Small Prairies 4406, 4409 (with BRITISH RAILWAYS insignia), 5527

Large Prairies 4116, 4166, 4171, 5156, 5173, 5190

Granges 6809 and 6819.

Thank you for that, Karhedron, as I have been looing for a Tondu loco to paint in this livery, which I think looks very attractive on GW tank engines.  Looks like there weren't any, which is a shame, but at least I can stop bothering about it now!

[Rugd1022]

I have a feeling in my water that the economy repaints kicked in in '62 / '63.

[sulzer27jd]

This was so very true. Goods traffic was the lifeblood of the railways for so many years and far outweighed the income from passenger work. The operators knew this; it was largely the enthusiasts who regarded it as mundane.

 

I remember my father-in-law commenting that the Fish from Aberdeen to Edinburgh was his hardest turn. Times as passenger, but without the stops. Very often A2 hauled.

 

Re the use of green engines, Dundee had unbalanced passenger jobs, with one of its A2's booked to work a freight back overnight. We often read captions stating that the Dundee A2's were on "standby", entirely missing the point that they had already put a shift in.

[Karhedron]

Thank you for that, Karhedron, as I have been looing for a Tondu loco to paint in this livery, which I think looks very attractive on GW tank engines.  Looks like there weren't any, which is a shame, but at least I can stop bothering about it now!

Don't give up, my list is a work in progress rather than comprehensive. I am pretty sure there is at least 1 Mogul missing that I cannot remember the number of for the life of me.

[Marshall5]

Don't give up, my list is a work in progress rather than comprehensive. I am pretty sure there is at least 1 Mogul missing that I cannot remember the number of for the life of me.

According to David Andrews 'The Churchward 2-6-0's" p73  the 3rd Mogul to receive lined black was 9314.  He also states that the whole class was on the original list to receive to receive this livery.  The 43xx were undoubtedly mixed traffic locos so it would be interesting to know the reasons for the change of heart.

As a further example of 'exceptions to the rules' 6372 & 6385 were turned out in Spring 1956 in fully lined express passenger livery for working a Royal train.  This was nearly a year before the "official" date as pointed out in post 51.

It is very easy for younger modellers who weren't around during the steam era to be misled into thinking that from the date of a livery change locos were quickly repainted to comply but this was not the case. Many locos would still be in the 'old' livery for years afterwards and some even skipped a livery change entirely as they were not yet due for re-paint during a shopping. One of the best examples was 5801 which still carried it's 1946 style GWR at least until 1958 https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/CambrianCoastLines/i-hPkB3Sf/A

Ray.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Marshall5

[The Stationmaster]

Yes, I agree, a few, but I did say 'mostly' (a larger proportion of the individual classes, especially the 'tanner ones').

 

I think the tanner oners probably gained a higher percentage of the class in lined green than any other passenger tank engines although the survivors of the 14XX probably did fairly well  (but note only the survivors - some went without ever regaining green).  56XX in lined green were pretty rare birds I suspect and even in 1962 at least one of Aberdare's 'pets' for regular passenger work was in unlined green.

 

SM, I think that you are being unfair branding my entire post "not correct".  I'm sure the painting instructions you quoted are correct but such was the infrequency of repaints (there are examples of locos still carrying the 1946 lettering in the late 50's) that members of the classes I quoted did in fact go straight from unlined black to lined green without ever being in lined MT livery (or unlined green for that matter!). 

Ray. 

Sorry if I gave that impression Ray but in reality there was not a change which you implied from black/lined black to lined green for the smaller engines as there was the intermediate stage of unlined green, then lined green, and then later the reversion to economy green for some.  Some individual engines definitely went from unlined black to lined green but that all depended on individual major shopping dates rather than what was officially happening with liveries and equally some 'smaller engines' which gained lined green were subsequently outshopped in 'economy green' while others went from unlined black to unlined black because they completely missed the initial green period and were caught by the 1958 reversion for some types.

 

Individual engines told individual stories - what i was doing was trying to explain the official approach and how the livery changes actually occurred rather than what happened to individual engines.

[pH]

Some Royal Scots ended their days at Annesley shed hauling coal trains. They were probably still green under the dirt

And elsewhere - https://www.railscot.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=59969

[unravelled]

A bit late to this thread, but here are a couple of lined green engines on goods turns.

The first two show Clun Castle doing some goods duties between use on specials, I have the date of the film as around August 1965. Can anyone tell me the location? The photos are on the same film as a visit to Bristol.

Edit, the location is on the road to Awre, in the Forest of Dean.






This is 46522, which I have been assured is in lined green, shunting at Adderbury on 1st April 1967




Thanks

Dave

Edited July 21, 2017 by unravelled

[Rugd1022]

Afraid I can't help you with the location Dave but that going away shot of 7029 is perfect! Was it Tyseley she was working her last days out of or Gloucester... I can't remember which it was...?

[bike2steam]

A bit late to this thread, but here are a couple of lined green engines on goods turns.The first two show Clun Castle doing some goods duties between use on specials, I have the date of the film as around August 1965. Can anyone tell me the location? The photos are on the same film as a visit to Bristol.sca030-001.jpgsca031.jpgThis is 46522, which I have been assured is in lined green, shunting at Adderbury on 1st April 1967sca017.jpgThanksDave

7029 was allocated to Gloucester until the end of '65 when withdrawn from BR stock, then went to Tyseley under the ownership of P.B. Whitehouse where it was 'requisitioned', on occasions, for work on Bordsley to Banbury freights.

Edited July 21, 2017 by bike2steam

[unravelled]

The location of the photos of Clun is now known. They are  from  the road to Awre, in the Forest of Dean. I better post them, and others, in the appropriate thread...

 

Thanks for the info that it was Gloucester based, I have a photo of it in the shed there, taken a while later. Also a pic of it l/e at Banbury.

 

Correction, no pic at Gloucester, It was Tyseley in 1966

 

Cheers

 

Dave

Edited July 21, 2017 by unravelled

[DCB]

 

It is very easy for younger modellers who weren't around during the steam era to be misled into thinking that from the date of a livery change locos were quickly repainted to comply but this was not the case. Many locos would still be in the 'old' livery for years afterwards and some even skipped a livery change entirely as they were not yet due for re-paint during a shopping. One of the best examples was 5801 which still carried it's 1946 style GWR at least until 1958 

Ray.

 Two factors would have influenced the re livery of locos was the planned scheduled maintenance of  WR locos on a mileage basis,  I think 78 000 miles was typical rather than run it until it won't run any further as practiced by other regions, which would have seen for instance 61XX on their London Suburban duties overhauled at 18 month intervals while other locos would take years to get their mileage in.

The other pragmatic avoidance of lined black was it was all those various lining colours made a hell of a lot of work compared to plain black or green and at Swindon painters worked around the fitters to paint locos as they were reassembled. Crewe had a paint shop where locos languished uselessly for several days after being repaired and sometimes run in while painters lovingly slapped black paint everywhere, but Swindon didn't waste time and money on such things.