Jump to content

cs233

Bachmann Class 158 Status

Recommended Posts

It has been a significant period since the intent of this new tooling was made public, does anyone know the current status? Do we have any details on the spec of the model, is it going to have some of the 'cutting edge' features like Realtrack's 156?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still at the Design Centre along sides 10 others, so a long way off production and knowing what will be featured.

Edited by brittannia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only Bachmann know the status of where the model sits, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting.... some of their other over due models seem to have been in the tool room for a long time....as for specs, it'll have a dcc socket, new chassis and hopefully a makeover.... I'd assume feature wise it'll be on par with other new dmu releases, like their 101....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 I'd assume feature wise it'll be on par with other new dmu releases, like their 101....

 

...in other words nowhere near the Realtrack 156.

 

 

 

...but then we may pleasantly be proved wrong, we never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...in other words nowhere near the Realtrack 156.

 

 

 

...but then we may pleasantly be proved wrong, we never know.

 

 

Well.. they both look exactly the same on my layout right now!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well.. they both look exactly the same on my layout right now!

Not quite, at least we have seen the  RealTrack 156 pre production models [due in a couple of months] .The 158 is completely imaginary !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The price will probably be the same as 156, if not more . I cant remember the price of the 101 but it had taken a hike upwards , so I wouldn't be surprised if the 158 when it appears is on a par with the 156.  That 156 looks the bees knees , but I just cant justify spending £200 on something I'd run only occasionally. Although......................

 

Actually I did look it up , before someone accused me of not having facts . The 158 as expected is TBA for price , The latest 2 car 101 is £199.95 and a 2EPB more expensive than that, so I think its a reasonable assumption  the price will be north of £200 when the 158 arrives

Edited by Legend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and probably pushing towards £300 for a three car version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think Bachmann will be doing the three car just yet. So far the annoucement has only been for two car 158s, and with the cost for being TBA.

 

I know Bachmanns standard has been good with models being made, but now Realtrack/Rapido have raised standards further in a way which takes a massive step forwards in terms of project cost, delivery and standard. The Realtrack 156 is expected to have a whole range of features that will be fantastic and the quality of the model is also going to be excellent. Bachmann by comparrison have had issues such as the 150 with a massive engine block, and had what looks like a big increase in costs for units that were cheaper before. If the process to build models means the same ammount of time and labour is involved in production to put the models together, plus the extra electrics to add all the features expected, then the two car 158 on its own Id expect to be more expensive than Realtrack and be around 250-300. That I think is a price that will now be massively expensive for a model, but Bachmanns costs are rising fast overall.

 

While the delay gives us a chance to save and pay for the model, buying it at such a price means the precedent is set and costs will rise so that such costs again become standard as they creep higher. Its just a case of market forces pending on the price that Bachmann set - but that in turn depends on how Bachmann design the model and what they put into it. That is, when they actually get round to designing and making it.

 

Meanwhile, to capitalise on costs and the production run, Bachmann should move from doing just two releases to three or four. Currently only South West trains and regional railways express, minus the express branding is listed. Realtrack have done runs that have livery differences that allow others to run and more be sold to market. Bachmann might want to do the Express model with just Regional Railways branding or also do a run with Express branding too. South West Trains could have a similar East Midlands Trains release being the same units, run by sister franchises with the same livery. You could add another popular livery such as Northern Rail blue and purple to bring that release forwards and cover more of the market. Those wanting these models are after them to run in a specific location and its unlikely they would want all 3. Some might want two, but its better to bring them to market where the demand for the type is likely to be high. Thats good news for Bachmann as it means despite the delay, a new tooled model is likely to be popular and the price increase negated by the desire to have a better model of a popular unit.

 

Question is - will Bachmann actually give the model more urgency, as compared with other engines in the range, I would think the prospect of sales from this model and the subsequent releases would be better and over a longer term and thus better for Bachmann.

 

Time to see if all that speculation gets anywhere near reality. Could take a while...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't believe it has been 5 years since it was announced. Extraordinary. And I believe the estimated price on Hattons website back then was £110. Now some on here think it may be as high as £300. 150% increase in 5 years?

 

I absolutely agree that more liveries should have been commissioned such as GWR and Northern. Would justify the production costs and may even reduce the price per model if more people buy it.

 

I assume the retooled 170s are no further towards release either?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Even if its 300 I still think the standard of the Realtrack 156 will beat it by a signficant margin. Don't get me wrong, I think it will be a good model, but otherwise Bachmann will have to increase their standard to match the competition and so far I think they have been satisfied with the standard that they are on with at the moment, such as the 101.

 

The release of other units in different liveries I dont think would clash. If you buy a GWR one your unlikely to want Northern, and different running numbers like Realtrack also could be an option for Bachmann.

 

Even if something like GWR or Northern or both were added, there are still plenty of popular liveries that could be done later as follow up models;

 

GWR dynamic lines,
​Northern Spirit plum and gold

Nat Ex, Scotrail

First Scotrail

Abellio Spotrail/Scotrail

Arriva Trains Wales
​Central Trains Green and black

East Midlands Trains

West Yorkshire PTE red and cream
​plus more...

 

Then you have the other addition of a 3 car being modelled with the centre car - or if Bachmann were really clever - a 3 car with a driving car done as the centre car!

 

Better get planning Bachmann. Your onto a winner here - makes you wonder why they decided to wait at all!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The price will probably be the same as 156, if not more . I cant remember the price of the 101 but it had taken a hike upwards , so I wouldn't be surprised if the 158 when it appears is on a par with the 156.  That 156 looks the bees knees , but I just cant justify spending £200 on something I'd run only occasionally. Although......................

 

Actually I did look it up , before someone accused me of not having facts . The 158 as expected is TBA for price , The latest 2 car 101 is £199.95 and a 2EPB more expensive than that, so I think its a reasonable assumption  the price will be north of £200 when the 158 arrives

Unfortunately I have to agree with your thoughts... I think we'll be lucky if we get a discounted price of £200 for the model and it'll be to a lesser standard than the new 156... the current 101 sells for £170 with the usual shop discount... the guys at realtrack are a small operation, less costs, more nimble and not selling through bricks and mortar shops, helping them to keep their costs lower....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems it will likely be a while as yet before we see them based on the comments. I thought the original Class 158 release in the 90's by Bachmann was way ahead of its time. Sadly I was disappointed with the Class 150 release and never did purchase any due to the super large engine block and dark windows. The retool of the 150 still is not at a level I would purchase with the engine still a detraction of the presentation for the unit in my opinion. I suspect there is a chance another manufacturer will pick up the Class 150 eventually and release a version that maybe comes close to Realtracks stunning Class 156.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe Realtrack will steal the lead and do a 158 as well. They've got the mechanism and chances are if they announced it now they'd still beat Bachmann , where there seems to have been little action over the last 5 years. Per Buses Magazine , recent article on the takeover of EFE by Bachmann , the Kader factory is full, so maybe a long wait

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do wonder if Realtrack are the cause of the delay. If you are Bachmann it must be a difficult position to be in knowing your product is likely to either be inferior or way more expensive. They may just be deciding what to do.

 

Likewise SLW have probably caused that problem with the 24/1.

 

Roy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do wonder if Realtrack are the cause of the delay. If you are Bachmann it must be a difficult position to be in knowing your product is likely to either be inferior or way more expensive. They may just be deciding what to do.

 

Likewise SLW have probably caused that problem with the 24/1.

 

Roy

 

I think people are a little unfair on Bachmann, they have many brilliant models and of course many older ones, upgrading these will take time. If were Bachmann I would concentrate on there core locomotive market and get out a cracking re-tooled Class 20.  As for new models, very little left to go at on the modern image front. One dead easy fix is to get rid of the Yellow LED marker lights, they should be warm white!!!  The Class 37 is probably there best seller, so I suggest protection their core business and bring out a re-tooled Class 37, designed for a 'large' speaker and all singing lights etc.

 

Please be thank full Bachmann in the early days, got us away from Triang-Hornby & Lima products.    Charlie 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think people are a little unfair on Bachmann, they have many brilliant models and of course many older ones, upgrading these will take time. If were Bachmann I would concentrate on there core locomotive market and get out a cracking re-tooled Class 20. As for new models, very little left to go at on the modern image front. One dead easy fix is to get rid of the Yellow LED marker lights, they should be warm white!!! The Class 37 is probably there best seller, so I suggest protection their core business and bring out a re-tooled Class 37, designed for a 'large' speaker and all singing lights etc.

 

Please be thank full Bachmann in the early days, got us away from Triang-Hornby & Lima products. Charlie

Don't get me wrong, I have many Bachmann products that I love and will buy plenty more. The problem I see with the 158, however, is that you have really raised the bar. The new Dapol 121/122 is getting criticism from some about its high floor, the Bachmann 150s gets criticism about its motor.

 

The 158 is hard to hide a motor in unless the sort of approach you have taken is adopted, I am not sure that Bachmann are ready for that step yet.

 

As I said, your 156 may have led to them having to reassess how they approach the 158 and be part of the delay.

 

Roy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for new models, very little left to go at on the modern image front... The Class 37 is probably there best seller, so I suggest protection their core business and bring out a re-tooled Class 37...

 

Agreed, Bachmann have produced some excellent models over the years, however even though most of the diesel classes are covered, so to speak, on looking at some of the higher-spec diesel/electric models now entering the market, such as the SLW Class 24, Dapol 68, Realtrack 156, DJ Models 71/74, hopefully soon to come DJM Class 92, and even though it's over 10 years old the Hornby Class 60, then some of the older Bachmann models - Class 66, 25, 37, 44, 45, 46, 47, 20 etc - whilst essentially good, are perhaps beginning to show their age a little.

 

So I suppose in theory there is nothing to prevent duplication by other manufacturers, as indeed Hornby have suffered from over the years with some of their models that they failed to update (Class 37, 47, 20 etc), if of course other manufacturers feel they can offer substantial improvement on any given model and reach the market in time and at a reasonable price point.  In the end it's all healthy for the hobby as it provides incentive for manufacturers to produce better models.  Not necessarily so great if you are the manufacturer(s), but that's business, I guess...

Edited by YesTor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we were complaining about the delay to the 158 before Realtrack entered the scene.

 

As to the 150, before its latest modifications, the power car was built like a loco – a heavy chassis with large central motor and flywheels driving both bogies. It was only partly disguised by dark-tinted windows. I was rather excited by the retool, expecting an underfloor motor akin to that in Bachmann’s rather wonderful MPV. Needless to say, I was disappointed by the old-fashioned lump which appeared, although it runs well.

 

I try to calm myself by thinking that the 158 will be much better than if it had got to market quickly. For a start, a Next 18 socket so that I can solder on a stay-alive capacitor without risking frying the decoder and, of course, a good underfloor motor driving both bogies.

 

The calming isn’t working. I get jittery at the thought that Bachmann might go coreless in the search for compactness. :O

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I should perhaps add that I’m not agin coreless as such, any more than I’m agin three-pole as such. It is that my recent experiences with coreless, as with design-clever three-poles, have not been happy. Please, Bachmann, stick to what is known to work consistently well!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we were complaining about the delay to the 158 before Realtrack entered the scene.

 

As to the 150, before its latest modifications, the power car was built like a loco – a heavy chassis with large central motor and flywheels driving both bogies. It was only partly disguised by dark-tinted windows. I was rather excited by the retool, expecting an underfloor motor akin to that in Bachmann’s rather wonderful MPV. Needless to say, I was disappointed by the old-fashioned lump which appeared, although it runs well.

 

I try to calm myself by thinking that the 158 will be much better than if it had got to market quickly. For a start, a Next 18 socket so that I can solder on a stay-alive capacitor without risking frying the decoder and, of course, a good underfloor motor driving both bogies.

 

The calming isn’t working. I get jittery at the thought that Bachmann might go coreless in the search for compactness. :O

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I should perhaps add that I’m not agin coreless as such, any more than I’m agin three-pole as such. It is that my recent experiences with coreless, as with design-clever three-poles, have not been happy. Please, Bachmann, stick to what is known to work consistently well!

Excuse the pun but to get to the core of the matter I suppose it depends upon the quality and size of the motor.As you know,my immediate experience with one also leaves me with a degree of scepticism.On the other hand a Faulhaber motor is an entirely different proposition.All down to what's currently available in China.....and to cost. Maybe a case of you get what you pay for ?

 

It is also interesting to observe that Kernow's soon to be delivered Bulleid direct to factory commission is fitted with a conventional 5 pole can motor...unlike the DJM commission Warship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't get me wrong, I have many Bachmann products that I love and will buy plenty more. The problem I see with the 158, however, is that you have really raised the bar. The new Dapol 121/122 is getting criticism from some about its high floor, the Bachmann 150s gets criticism about its motor.

The 158 is hard to hide a motor in unless the sort of approach you have taken is adopted, I am not sure that Bachmann are ready for that step yet.

As I said, your 156 may have led to them having to reassess how they approach the 158 and be part of the delay.

Roy

With regards to the motor, I though that when Bachmann announced the LU S Stock with underfloor motor, this would become standard on all their subsequent multiple units, so it's not exactly something they haven't done before. Surely a slightly higher floor is better than having to black out windows to hide a motor? Edited by bart2day

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't aware that the Bachmann 158 was now announced five years ago. I only realised when I searched on some other threads on here a few days ago.

 

Personally I think it's dissapointing that after five years the two 158s announced have still not arrived with retailers and therefore not with customers either. However Bachmann models are my favourite models to buy just because of the smooth running, attention to detail and supurb livery application. I am sure that once these models are released they will be fantastic.

 

However I also completley agree with others who mention other liveries. Bachmann may have plans to produce further liveries after these two but it may be beneficial to produce more than two liveries in the first batch. I personally wouldn't acquire the Regional Railways or East Midlands Trains models just because I don't model the areas that the trains run in.

 

If though two Northern liveried 158s were announced, one in Northern Rail purple and the new Northern Rail white livery then I would consider buying them. That said it depends on price. I am well aware that Bachmann have to increase their costs to cover labour, manufacturing, the fall in the pound etc but if these locos are going to cost around or over £250 for one two car unit I would most likely have to say no. This is a shame but as others have mentioned and I would be in the same position I wouldn't pay that amount of money for a loco/s if it wasn't going to be run on a regular basis.

 

Personally I think Bachmann need to broaden their range in relation to the locos, liveries and running numbers that they produce. It's good to hear of tooling upgrades/modifictaions to produce 20/3s, 90s and 158s but the waiting time from announcing these locos to them arriving with retailers and customers is just far too long at the moment. As we know it's five years since the 158s were announced and I think three years since the 90s were announced. It's ok annoncing locos but it's very frustrating waiting years for them to arrive. I'm not sure what the reason is for this whether it's due to factory space or whatever but Bachmann do need to catch up. At this rate it could easily be 2020 before we see the newly tooled 20/3s. I am really looking forward to the 20/3s arriving and I can't wait to buy them but a potential four year waiting time which is what it could easily be at this moment in time is too long.

 

It's a real shame that Bachmann announce such fantastic models but then we have to wait years for them to arrive. Throughout the wait their seems to be slow progress and lack of updates as to where the projects are at. If we were updated with the progress of the models it would be more encouraging especially if the waiting times were shorter. Personally five years worth of waiting for the 158s is really slow progress and it doesn't promote other projects in a good light either because we are all aware that it will have a knock on effect for other projects.

 

A potential option to relieve the backlog of locos and projects that Bachmann currently have ongoing could be to do a smaller announcement in 2018. After all we have been bombarded with modern image locos in previous years now with lots of 37s, 47s, 66s and 70s been announced. It could be an idea to specifically announce a couple of models from each era in 2018 which would enable Bachmann to focus more on their ongoing projects, which would eventually relieve the backlog of models that we are currently waiting for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

During the new development cycle for the Class 158 which has been around 5 years as other posters have detailed I am a little surprised they did not release versions of the older 158 tooling which still has some good points. Is the new tooling a complete new tool or heavy modification of the original 158? We should find out in the end. From the opinions it seems that the the expectation is that a very high specification new model is wanted which I hope Bachmann do eventually deliver? If not I believe it will potentially leave them vulnerable for another manufacturer picking it up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

During the new development cycle for the Class 158 which has been around 5 years as other posters have detailed I am a little surprised they did not release versions of the older 158 tooling which still has some good points. Is the new tooling a complete new tool or heavy modification of the original 158? We should find out in the end. From the opinions it seems that the the expectation is that a very high specification new model is wanted which I hope Bachmann do eventually deliver? If not I believe it will potentially leave them vulnerable for another manufacturer picking it up.

It's allegedly a completely new tooling.

 

Then again, the whole thing was announced so long ago, and we've seen such little apparent progress (the company itself most recently telling us that it was still "in the design studio"), that I'm increasingly inclined to think the original announcement was a "land grab" by Bachmann, to warn off other players, rather than a genuine announcement.

 

Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't compare Realtrack, Rapido and Bachmann. Apart from the fact they all market model trains, there any similarity ends. They are three different organisations, very different in size and all serving the model railway market in different ways. (CJL)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.