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Bachmann Class 158 Status


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50 minutes ago, fezza said:

It is annoying when manufacturers appear tp hold back popular liveries but older readers will remember when there were about 15 different Lima editions of the same locomotive and stock piled up at retailers... and what happened to Lima shortly afterwards. 

 

Yes I do think Bachmann deliberately restrict supply to protect prices. I don't like it but I don't blame them as it seems to work from a business point of view. 


Limas problem was not too many liveries, but making too many volume of each livery... 92001 was a limited edition of 3000... alongside a half dozen non-limited near identical class mates. I recall being told at the time, they made 40k of them.

 

imagine someone today making 40k class 88’s ? I’m not even sure theres demand for 4000.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

imagine someone today making 40k class 88’s ? I’m not even sure theres demand for 4000.

 

I'd have one or two. So 0.025-0.05 percent of 4000! I'd be interested to know how many locos are needed to justify the tooling though. If the figure I have heard thrown about of £100k for tooling a loco is correct then you'd need 4000 to have £25 contribution per sale.

 

There's a thread all about the 88 though so I won't say anymore!

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40 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

I'd have one or two. So 0.025-0.05 percent of 4000! I'd be interested to know how many locos are needed to justify the tooling though. If the figure I have heard thrown about of £100k for tooling a loco is correct then you'd need 4000 to have £25 contribution per sale.

 

There's a thread all about the 88 though so I won't say anymore!

It's 'how long is piece of string. The numbers needed to justify tooling are a balancing act between how many you think you might sell at what price. You can justify tooling for one model if you think someone will pay hundreds of thousands of pounds for it. Of course, they won't, so you end up with a minimum quantity that the factory is willing to set up for. You then divide your estimated costs across that number (you might remove some expensive tooling variations at that stage), you add your margins for all the people between the manufacturer and the customer, you add the VAT  and you come up with a selling price which is invariably far higher than you think the market will stand. You then parr away your own margin and everyone else's (if they'll wear it) until you get a selling price you think people will pay. If you can't reach that figure then you abandon the project as not viable. You do not increase the volume in order to get the unit price down, as that will leave you with unsolds or having to discount, that will swallow whatever modest profit you might have made. Whatever quantity you arrive at, you then (whenever possible) divide that between the most popular liveries making the same calculated guesses about the quantity of each that you need. That will also depend on the minimum batch quantity the factory will accept. (CJL)

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27 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

The numbers needed to justify tooling are a balancing act between how many you think you might sell at what price.

 

I know, but I thought somebody maybe knew rough amounts the manufacturers budgeted for. I didn't need the maths explaining!

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7 hours ago, fezza said:

It is annoying when manufacturers appear tp hold back popular liveries 

 

And dangerous.

I was in the market for an N7 (?) - had the money and waited... and waited... and waited for anything other than the grey livery.

Ended up spending the cash on something else and now don't feel the need for an N7.

 

Difficult one though as you can't really release them all at once but for something where there has to be at least 10-15 different liveries, 4 at the start to get the model out there and momentum going would have been good. Especially liveries that cover a wide area of operation.

 

Whether I'll decide the £350 odd for a sound version is worth it down the line, I'm not sure.

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It will be interesting to see how the Hattons 66 and Accurascale models where there are a lot of variations from launch will fare in the market.

 

They maybe think it makes more sense to do more up front (maybe helps in their case when negotiating with factories which is something less of a worry to the bigger players) and know some will sit on the shelves for a while albeit tieing up cash flow to an extent.

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5 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

I know, but I thought somebody maybe knew rough amounts the manufacturers budgeted for. I didn't need the maths explaining!

Sorry. Wasn't meaning to explain the maths. The point is that every model is different and the budgeted numbers are different. The goal posts move, too. Once upon a time the factories' minimum quantities were much higher than they are now. 

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1 hour ago, dibber25 said:

Sorry. Wasn't meaning to explain the maths. The point is that every model is different and the budgeted numbers are different. The goal posts move, too. Once upon a time the factories' minimum quantities were much higher than they are now. 

 

No worries.

 

I was just thinking that realistically you'd never pay for £100ks worth of tooling with 1000 units unless they were very expensive or very low manufacturing costs.

 

For example I think it's interesting that Accurascale/Rails are doing the 89. Some of it is piggybacking the 92 but I'd expect it will have its own chassis and bogies (and body of course) meaning a significant outlay for what may not be many models.

 

OTOH their 37, despite a lot of variations, will have a lot bigger market.

 

I just have no idea of the market numbers/sizes, is a limited edition of 1000 really that limited in a lot of cases? Probably not in the regard that most people who really want them will be able to get them!

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Limited edition quantities have always been a slightly contentious issue and much depends on how many regular versions have been done. A limited edition of 1,000 in a unique livery would be pretty limited for a model that's been in the catalogues for a while and been produced in several other liveries as a standard model. Also a limited edition of 1,000 might well be the minimum a factory would be willing to produce due to the set-up time and costs. These days, with standard runs being shorter manufacturers may sometimes be willing to go below 1,000 for a model which requires, perhaps, just a change of number and minor livery variations and is bolted on the end of a larger production run. Factories like to have a long run at producing exactly the same thing for a long period. The model railway market increasingly requires exactly the opposite with frequent changes of details, large and small, and changes of paint colours and masks, and tampo printing across ever-smaller numbers of models. Mass production doesn't mesh easily with bespoke end results. I always thought that the ultimate limited editions are the 'Limited Edition sandwiches' offered by bakeries and canteens every once in a while. I always feel I should be keeping it for posterity, not eating it! (CJL)

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1 minute ago, dibber25 said:

A limited edition of 1,000 in a unique livery would be pretty limited

 

I meant in terms of selling the things. To me a limited edition is something that is hard to come by, but there are quite a few Limited Editions of 1000 that seem to sit on the shelves for a while.

 

500 (which a lot of Bachmann specials are) seem to be a lot more on point in terms of exclusivity. Which is something I don't care about. If it's something I want I want it and the amount available to others doesn't have an effect on whether I want it, only whether I can get hold of it!

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38 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

. Factories like to have a long run at producing exactly the same thing for a long period. The model railway market increasingly requires exactly the opposite with frequent changes of details, large and small, and changes of paint colours and masks, and tampo printing across ever-smaller numbers of models. 

 

In the whole scheme of things - IMO, the shift in market forces is partly due to the increased cost of the models and the related unwillingness of people reluctant (or even afraid) to damage their expensive model. It's called doing some modelling.

Even exacerbated even more so for those modelling post-privatisation with the oft-complex liveries that prevail.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

In the whole scheme of things - IMO, the shift in market forces is partly due to the increased cost of the models and the related unwillingness of people reluctant (or even afraid) to damage their expensive model. It's called doing some modelling.

Even exacerbated even more so for those modelling post-privatisation with the oft-complex liveries that prevail.

 

 

 

 

Model railways arent disposable and have a consumption life of decades.

 

The counter to 100k Jintys, 37’s/47s etc in the 1980’s was to raise the stakes by increasing the detail levels so people trade up.

That cash cow has been pretty much exhausted with most popular types twice, thrice retooled since.

What happened next was higher prices for smaller volumes.

 

This has opened a whole new market for niche models that otherwise would never gave seen light of day, but also widened scope for models in other countries where demand was not large enough prior... e.g. Being a Polish railfan in the early 2000’s was limited to german prototypes with PKP paint on... in less than 7 years nearly ever major modern prototype has been tooled by around 5 manufacturers, Massive growth in Portuguese, Irish, Danish, Swedish even Chinese state railways modelling etc.

 

This widened demand for chinese factory space, who have raised prices and have healthy pipelines of work stretching years, though bigger money will always find a better place in the queue... so if you want something made... go big, as going small will end up making you wait a long time for 2nd runs.


Whats not happening is enough innovation, small tweaks here and there, but the product today stands very well next to the product of year 2000, even if its replaced that of the 1990’s...

 

at a sense of being on topic, the class 158 fits here.. I eagerly awaited the new tooling, only to find it sits.. well nearly identical to the old tooling... ok its got DCC gubbins, a second superflous motor and DCC gimmicks/couplings, which all very nice, but as a DC user offers little for me... so I decided to stay current in livery and buy new, but I’m retaining my older ones as theres little incentive to upgrade. (Same story applies on ViTrains37/47, Duchess, Princess, J72, v1/v3, Bachmanns 66 isnt that bad, and quite possibly upcoming 37/47 too may not be traded up).

 

so what happens when all the viable high, mid and small market stuff has been done ?

 

my worry is the UK is becoming like German modelling in the 1990’s.. loads of duplications, stagnant market, high price, large volumes of stock, leading to struggling manufacturers, the only winner will be the ones holding the toolings.

 

 

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....and back to the Bachmann class 158....

 

Well, 159...if I am allowed to diverge from the thread? 

 

Who here owns the NSE 159? I would like to know is it possible to put an 'end' body on a 'centre' chassis? Why do I ask? I wish to model the GWR 158/9 and due to all the complex DCC inter-car coupling it is clearly not as easy as buying two GWR 158s. The NSE 159 centre car seems the way forward...

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10 minutes ago, 159220 said:

....and back to the Bachmann class 158....

 

Well, 159...if I am allowed to diverge from the thread? 

 

Who here owns the NSE 159? I would like to know is it possible to put an 'end' body on a 'centre' chassis? Why do I ask? I wish to model the GWR 158/9 and due to all the complex DCC inter-car coupling it is clearly not as easy as buying two GWR 158s. The NSE 159 centre car seems the way forward...

 

That's the way I'd look at doing it too, but can't say how easy it would be as I've only seen pics of the new version. From what I remember the chassis is essentially the same, apart from the cab end, so it should be possible. Not a cheap option but probably the easiest.

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1 hour ago, 159220 said:

....and back to the Bachmann class 158....

 

Well, 159...if I am allowed to diverge from the thread? 

 

Who here owns the NSE 159? I would like to know is it possible to put an 'end' body on a 'centre' chassis? Why do I ask? I wish to model the GWR 158/9 and due to all the complex DCC inter-car coupling it is clearly not as easy as buying two GWR 158s. The NSE 159 centre car seems the way forward...

 

What about enquiring with Bachmann about spare parts? Would it then be possible to transplant the DCC connection onto the front of the inner car?

 

You could then perhaps make 2 3 cars from 3 2 cars (like real life)?

 

Or are you over complicating things? Why not have a separate decoder in the end car?

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15 hours ago, dibber25 said:

 I always thought that the ultimate limited editions are the 'Limited Edition sandwiches' offered by bakeries and canteens every once in a while. I always feel I should be keeping it for posterity, not eating it! (CJL)

 

Only if it comes with a numbered certificate.:D

 

Roddy

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On 15/06/2020 at 10:20, 159220 said:

....and back to the Bachmann class 158....

 

Well, 159...if I am allowed to diverge from the thread? 

 

Who here owns the NSE 159? I would like to know is it possible to put an 'end' body on a 'centre' chassis? Why do I ask? I wish to model the GWR 158/9 and due to all the complex DCC inter-car coupling it is clearly not as easy as buying two GWR 158s. The NSE 159 centre car seems the way forward...


I reckon few if any have tried it yet, so sounds like one of those fun suck-it-and-see projects!

 

Normally things always work themselves out, I’d go the 2x GWR 158 route as you’d need the bodies in green anyway and then see what you can rob from the unwanted 4th vehicle to put into your new centre car.

 

I have fond memories of doing a 3-car Class 158/9 conversion back in the early 2000s when Wessex Trains (whooo!) first did it and was proper chuffed with a bit of easy bashing to create something bang up to date, much easier then as we didn’t need to worry about lights, you had the trusty old Bachmann bulbs in each end on old school DC, those were the days :lol:

 

Cheers,

James

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2 hours ago, Class 158 productions said:

given how their 150/2 has stuck around for a while

 

I think the thing is, hopefully manufacturers and shops reflect on why stuff hangs around and learns from it when choosing the next thing to do rather than carte blanche try not to do anything unusual

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On 27/02/2020 at 18:49, martin_l_jones said:

 

The motors do make a slight whirring when they start but they're not noisy. 

 

In terms of your function buttons that's quite interesting to read as the leaflet does not detail F2 braking function (which the Bachmann Decoder leaflet does) so Directional Lights End B (on/off) is actually F3 and so on. With F6 Day / Night actually F7.

 

15828291053503803201556531900753.jpg

Mine are a bit scrambled as well compared to the Bachmann instructions and I've got the Bachmann plux 22 decoder in it

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Theres a small chance the instructions actually mean the function output the lights are connected to and not neccesarily the function button.

For example Directional Lights Off End A is wired as Aux 1 but F1 on the decoder isn't actually set to Aux 1.

 

Just a possiblity.

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8 hours ago, charliepetty said:

Do the Cab Light work at the Front end???   Charlie

If you mean the internal cab lights...They operate on the rear car when travelling forwards. .which I believe is correct as it would be the train managers end who can have the cab light on

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On 25/06/2020 at 23:44, aquilla said:

If you mean the internal cab lights...They operate on the rear car when travelling forwards. .which I believe is correct as it would be the train managers end who can have the cab light on

I thought that was the case.   But when stopped at stations the drivers light would be on if he needed to look at the route timings etc, but it would be turned off on moving off.   This I would be better I think, can this be done ???

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