Bachmann Class 158 Status

[The Black Hat]

You can't compare Realtrack, Rapido and Bachmann. Apart from the fact they all market model trains, there any similarity ends. They are three different organisations, very different in size and all serving the model railway market in different ways. (CJL)

 

With respect, you just named them. Then compared them and found a similarity then compared then again and found differences. So, I don't see any reason why you can't... 

[piranha230]

I am inclined to believe in the above ( LAND GRAB SECENARIO) DONT TOUCH IT AS WE ARE WORKING ON IT ! , you have Hornby that have a 1987 tooled class 142 that was about £27.50 rrp  back then, a class 90 1988 tooled and the ex Lima class 156 that was tooled in 1987 I remember that was about £37.50 back then, they have sold old tooled models at ridiculous prices over recent years, so you have a new scenario.

 

Realtrack are doing the 156 and class 142 probably at more than double the cost than at what Hornby last sold them for, but you are getting a highly detailed model with complex electronics (dcc and lighting ect).

 

Realtrack was secretive about its forthcoming class 142, yet they already had its chassis from its previous class 143, now they are doing the 156 and if Bachmann who announced a totally new class 158 in about 2011 with nothing to show, then im sorry to be blunt Realtrack might be them to it.

No point these days in having Railroad branded expensive models selling at ridiculous prices.

No point in having a class 47 from Triang, Hornby, Lima, Heljan, Bachmann ect.

[No Decorum]

I am disappointed too that Bachmann’s 158 isn’t closer to production. However, I’m all in favour of land grab, which is just a disparaging way of saying “announce early”. It helps to avoid duplication. In the case of the 158, I would think “cock-up” rather than conspiracy. Bachmann’s programme is now known to have been over-ambitious and the difficulties have been compounded by Kader’s production problems. These things aren’t resolved in a year or two but we are seeing new models coming through, if not as quickly as we would like.

 

Have you seen Bachmann’s latest video? The DVT lighting looks as if it will be something special and I dare say the 158 will benefit from this approach when it eventually appears.

 

Have you also seen the prices of the DCC coaches?

[Roy Langridge]

I am disappointed too that Bachmann’s 158 isn’t closer to production. However, I’m all in favour of land grab, which is just a disparaging way of saying “announce early”. It helps to avoid duplication. In the case of the 158, I would think “cock-up” rather than conspiracy. Bachmann’s programme is now known to have been over-ambitious and the difficulties have been compounded by Kader’s production problems. These things aren’t resolved in a year or two but we are seeing new models coming through, if not as quickly as we would like.

 

Have you seen Bachmann’s latest video? The DVT lighting looks as if it will be something special and I dare say the 158 will benefit from this approach when it eventually appears.

 

Have you also seen the prices of the DCC coaches?

 

I agree that it was probably not intentional, but Bachmann really could do with taking a step back and "giving up" some models that they have announced that we will not see for a good few years. They have so much announced and not happening that we will either end up with duplication anyway or lack up-to-date models that we may otherwise have had available.

 

A good example is the 24/1. Probably time for them to knock that one on the head formally and concentrate any effort that was being spent on that on another model.

 

Roy

Edited July 6, 2017 by Roy Langridge

[Legend]

I am inclined to believe in the above ( LAND GRAB SECENARIO) DONT TOUCH IT AS WE ARE WORKING ON IT ! , you have Hornby that have a 1987 tooled class 142 that was about £27.50 rrp  back then, a class 90 1988 tooled and the ex Lima class 156 that was tooled in 1987 I remember that was about £37.50 back then, they have sold old tooled models at ridiculous prices over recent years, so you have a new scenario.

 

Realtrack are doing the 156 and class 142 probably at more than double the cost than at what Hornby last sold them for, but you are getting a highly detailed model with complex electronics (dcc and lighting ect).

 

Realtrack was secretive about its forthcoming class 142, yet they already had its chassis from its previous class 143, now they are doing the 156 and if Bachmann who announced a totally new class 158 in about 2011 with nothing to show, then im sorry to be blunt Realtrack might be them to it.

No point these days in having Railroad branded expensive models selling at ridiculous prices.

No point in having a class 47 from Triang, Hornby, Lima, Heljan, Bachmann ect.

 

Yep ,  agree .   Having seen the video of Bachmann 2Fs I have to say they look superb. Waiting to see what functionality there will be for DC as opposed to DCC. There's no way I'll be buying a rake at that price , I don't need all that functionality, but interested in DBSO. Bachmann look to be going for fitting all the gubbings and charging higher prices . There's a report somewhere about DCC operating pantograph on the 90, further supporting this high tech , high value strategy. The 158 may follow suit.      But as technical specs and values go northwards there is scope for a Bargain/ Value Railroad range , but not at the ridiculous prices as you say.   Bachmann clearly going after the top of the market , but it does leave space at the lower end for Hornby Railroad.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

Some might not agree with me here but I would rather that Bachmann did a smaller announcement for 2018.

 

They have so many new projects/tooling upgrades that are ongoing that it just doesn't seem logical to announce loads more models that we no doubt won't see within a couple of years. A smaller announcement in 2018 would allow Bachmann to have the opportunity in both time and factory space to produce those two 158s and three 90s that we have been waiting several years for now. Bachmann are also upgrading the tooling for MK2Fs, DBSOs and 20/3s just to name a few. The MK2Fs and DBSOs have been advertised for release next year which sounds brilliant but is it practical?

 

Also why are Bachmann not working in time order with the new tooling that they have announced? Unless they plan on getting those two 158s, three 90s, all of those MK2Fs and DBSOs produced and with retailers before the end of 2018? This does seem rather ambitious though. Could all of this be done in roughly 18 months from now? As well as all of the other models that they have announced without tooling upgrades.

 

Personally thinking about it I think that the 158 was a land grab as some others think too. Why announce them in 2012 if within five years they still haven't been produced and aren't with retailers. Surely if they were that important and high priority they would have been here by 2014 or 2015. Not sure if I agree with a land grab because in my opinion I think it's unfair to have customers waiting so long for two models. Especially when we have been given so little information about the 158s we just don't know what to expect.

 

Personally I think Bachmann really do need to catch up for the remainder of this year and in 2018. Some of these long and ongoing projects need to be completed, at least for the models that have already been announced.

 

Don't get me wrong Bachmann produce excellent models and most of the stock that I have is produced by Bachmann but these long waiting times for models and with several ongoing projects I personally think that something needs to give so that we can see these newly tooled models soon.

[Andy Y]

At yesterday's press day:

 

The long overdue new tooling for the Class 158 was addressed with a statement that the chassis design is being carried out in parallel with the Class 117 and 121, not necessarily from a total commonality perspective but from a design principle point of view. The drive will be at a low level to keep the passenger area clear with a single motor bogie for each driving car; one decoder will be required per unit to operate all of the DCC functions and a dual speaker set up from one sound decoder to simulate separate engine sounds is under development.

[grahame]

Bachmann look to be going for fitting all the gubbings and charging higher prices .

 

Actually the cost of the extra 'gubbins' is minimal in the overall sphere of production and adds very little to the final price. But what it does is add extra features, increased value for money and additional play value that helps to differentiate and make them attractive (although perhaps not to you).

 

What does feed through to price is the type of organisation that Bachmann is (as has already been mentioned) and the escalating production costs (mainly labour) in China. But I appreciate that you don't accept that.

 

G.

[Andy Y]

 

1. Also why are Bachmann not working in time order with the new tooling that they have announced? 

 

2. Personally I think Bachmann really do need to catch up for the remainder of this year and in 2018. Some of these long and ongoing projects need to be completed, at least for the models that have already been announced.

 

 

1. - some projects take longer than others from a research or design perspective; why should other projects be held up behind them?

2. - they are doing - have a read of the press day report.

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

1. - some projects take longer than others from a research or design perspective; why should other projects be held up behind them?

2. - they are doing - have a read of the press day report.

 

Thank you Andy. I will have a read. I wasn't aware of this. Thank you very much for letting me know.

[dibber25]

With respect, you just named them. Then compared them and found a similarity then compared then again and found differences. So, I don't see any reason why you can't... 

...and your point is? (CJL)

[The Black Hat]

You can't compare Realtrack, Rapido and Bachmann. Apart from the fact they all market model trains, there any similarity ends. They are three different organisations, very different in size and all serving the model railway market in different ways. (CJL)

 

With respect, you just named them. Then compared them and found a similarity then compared then again and found differences. So, I don't see any reason why you can't... 

 

...and your point is? (CJL)

 

Because you said you cant - and then you did.

[159220]

Even if something like GWR or Northern or both were added, there are still plenty of popular liveries that could be done later as follow up models;

 

GWR dynamic lines,

​Northern Spirit plum and gold

Nat Ex, Scotrail

First Scotrail

Abellio Spotrail/Scotrail

Arriva Trains Wales

​Central Trains Green and black

East Midlands Trains

West Yorkshire PTE red and cream

​plus more...

 

 

Don't forget Wessex Trains! Though I would imagine many of the liveries which have been missed out on in the past decade shall make wonderful limited editions through various retailers. 

 

But yes, surely it would make business sense when the 158 is re-announced with spec, GWR and Northern liveries added. 

 

One of the problems of the 158 development must be the continuous adjustments to the prototype. Recently wifi aerials have been fitted to the roofs, not with standing the myriad of different air conditioning unit styles. 

 

Even "popular" current liveries today such as SWT, Northern (purple) and Arriva Wales shall all be changed within the next couple of years...

[ruggedpeak]

The biggest problem at the moment is the price of some secondhand versions. The Arriva Wales versions now have asking prices of £150 (Ebay) and £140 (Hattons). The sooner Bachmann get into gear and offer the new model the better. £150 for a 10 year old fairly basic model with no DCC socket? Not surprised they aren't selling (the Ebay one has been around for weeks), but no one seems to be offering a realistic price. Only cost £80 new.

[Gt.Shefford]

It might have been a positive PR move if Bachmann had released some CAD renderings of the new 158 (if anything to prove that it exists)

 

Regarding the cost of secondhand 158's. I guess its a case of supply and demand setting the market price.

 

Jonathan

[Legend]

Have they started it yet, given that it will now have the same mechanism as the 117?

[bart2day]

It might have been a positive PR move if Bachmann had released some CAD renderings of the new 158 (if anything to prove that it exists)

 

Regarding the cost of secondhand 158's. I guess its a case of supply and demand setting the market price.

 

Jonathan

Absolutely. I think for five years to pass and to have heard or seen absolutely nothing is rather dissapointing. Anticipation is slowly turning to frustration. Edited July 8, 2017 by bart2day

[Perfect Paul]

Straight forward answer really :

Let Realtrack put there expertise to Good use, and encourage and support them to produce a 1st class model of a 158 in a variety of liveries. "Perfection on the Rails"

[DaveClass47]

If Bachmann don't get a move on then the cost increases may make the 158 too expensive.  

 

I predict (looking into my OO Gauge Crystal ball) that they will 'attempt' to sell it for £300+ by adding detail like we are seeing on their MK2f's.   When will it arrive.....2020!   A whopping 7 years after I placed my pre order lol. 

 

And don't get me started on predicting the arrival of the class 90's.....it may take a few more years   By which time Hornby will have done 1-2 runs of their forthcoming Class 87 and will have probably re-tooled the 91 as well by then, leaving Bachmann a bit behind in the AC electrics race.

 

At least by the time they do arrive my layout might be 'finished'!!   I will wait....it give me something to look forward to (I just have to stay off ebay...failing on that front just now!)

Edited July 12, 2017 by DaveClass47

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

If Bachmann don't get a move on then the cost increases may make the 158 too expensive.  

 

I predict (looking into my OO Gauge Crystal ball) that they will 'attempt' to sell it for £300+ by adding detail like we are seeing on their MK2f's.   When will it arrive.....2020!   A whopping 7 years after I placed my pre order lol. 

 

And don't get me started on predicting the arrival of the class 90's.....it may take a few more years   By which time Hornby will have done 1-2 runs of their forthcoming Class 87 and will have probably re-tooled the 91 as well by then, leaving Bachmann a bit behind in the AC electrics race.

 

At least by the time they do arrive my layout might be 'finished'!!   I will wait....it give me something to look forward to (I just have to stay off ebay...failing on that front just now!)

 

I completely agree here.

 

The RRP prices on the Bachmann website still say TBA. Even by the RRP prices five years ago when these two models were announced it must have been in the region of £150 for a two car unit without sound and £250 for a two car unit fitted with sound. I agree that the sound unit will now no doubt be £300+ and no doubt the none sound unit will be £200+. I wonder just out of interest how many people will buy these units at no doubt such high prices?

 

It's such a shame because if these models had been available in 2014 or 2015 just one or two years after they had been announced the prices may not have been as high as what they are going to be now. I know that Bachmann can't predict what's going to happen in the economy in the five year period from 2012 to present but I'm sure it goes without saying or seeing the price tags that they will be expensive because of the current costs in producing/manufacturing, shipping, increases in pay abroad and the fall in the pound.

 

The five year time span so far from announcement until present could be the difference between a large amount of sales and an increase in profit and now people not been able to afford to buy the locos which means a reduction/decrease in profit and sales. If Bachmann did announce these 158 models as a land grab I do have to wonder at this moment in time if it will have been worth it by the time the models arrive with retailers and people have seen the price tags.

 

I'm sure the models will be great when they are produced and hopefully the prices will be affordable.

[The Black Hat]

I completely agree here.

 

The RRP prices on the Bachmann website still say TBA. Even by the RRP prices five years ago when these two models were announced it must have been in the region of £150 for a two car unit without sound and £250 for a two car unit fitted with sound. I agree that the sound unit will now no doubt be £300+ and no doubt the none sound unit will be £200+. I wonder just out of interest how many people will buy these units at no doubt such high prices?

 

It's such a shame because if these models had been available in 2014 or 2015 just one or two years after they had been announced the prices may not have been as high as what they are going to be now. I know that Bachmann can't predict what's going to happen in the economy in the five year period from 2012 to present but I'm sure it goes without saying or seeing the price tags that they will be expensive because of the current costs in producing/manufacturing, shipping, increases in pay abroad and the fall in the pound.

 

The five year time span so far from announcement until present could be the difference between a large amount of sales and an increase in profit and now people not been able to afford to buy the locos which means a reduction/decrease in profit and sales. If Bachmann did announce these 158 models as a land grab I do have to wonder at this moment in time if it will have been worth it by the time the models arrive with retailers and people have seen the price tags.

 

I'm sure the models will be great when they are produced and hopefully the prices will be affordable.

 

The delay and longer process in model production is another reason why second hand models have retained more of their value, and indeed some of them have seen their value grow. Things such as the 158 have seen their value grow as they have not been produced much and with the likes of Bachmann having delays in making models, some runs of some classes have become scarce as they are snapped up by some modellers looking to get a model of a certain type.

 

This is supply and demand at work. Supply has gone down and demand is there, so the price has gone up. Bachmann might view this as a means to justify the price rise that they might be considering if people are wanting to pay so much for a second hand model that previously might have gone for £50-70 but is now going for £90, £100, 120?

 

Question is will the supply of a new model create sufficient demand for the new model to be purchased at a higher price? I think it will and the supply of the new model should lower the price of the second hand models still on the market as a better one is made. However, Bachmann are still only planning on two liveries for release, which I think should be increased to 4 to make up for the delay in the production and planning, as they could still release ones that would not clash given the modelling periods and areas they serve - such as Regional Railways, South West Trains, Northern Rail blue and purple and Scotrail.

 

I also think that models being made now are getting more and more complex. As a result, fitting DCC Sound to a model with so much wiring in it now, might make the purchase of one fitted more value for money rather than buying one and then having to risk damage during the refit.

 

So it all depends on the price Bachmann aim for -  but theres many factors at work here. More than many realise...

[DRS Crewe On A Mission]

The delay and longer process in model production is another reason why second hand models have retained more of their value, and indeed some of them have seen their value grow. Things such as the 158 have seen their value grow as they have not been produced much and with the likes of Bachmann having delays in making models, some runs of some classes have become scarce as they are snapped up by some modellers looking to get a model of a certain type.

 

This is supply and demand at work. Supply has gone down and demand is there, so the price has gone up. Bachmann might view this as a means to justify the price rise that they might be considering if people are wanting to pay so much for a second hand model that previously might have gone for £50-70 but is now going for £90, £100, 120?

 

Question is will the supply of a new model create sufficient demand for the new model to be purchased at a higher price? I think it will and the supply of the new model should lower the price of the second hand models still on the market as a better one is made. However, Bachmann are still only planning on two liveries for release, which I think should be increased to 4 to make up for the delay in the production and planning, as they could still release ones that would not clash given the modelling periods and areas they serve - such as Regional Railways, South West Trains, Northern Rail blue and purple and Scotrail.

 

I also think that models being made now are getting more and more complex. As a result, fitting DCC Sound to a model with so much wiring in it now, might make the purchase of one fitted more value for money rather than buying one and then having to risk damage during the refit.

 

So it all depends on the price Bachmann aim for -  but theres many factors at work here. More than many realise...

 

Very true. As Bachmann haven't produced 158s for many years now they could see that as a gap/opportunity in the market. I agree with this. The old models were produced several years ago and wear the older liveries which are now no longer worn by the some or if not all of the 158s in reality. With many livery changes this would seem a good justification to upgrade/modify the tooling to produce better models, with DCC sockets to allow DCC Decoders to be fitted. It would also allow Bachmann to produce some of the more up to date/latest liveries worn by the class.

 

This seems very worthwhile but I personally, alike you and no doubt many others agree that they need to produce more/different liveries. Maybe this is going to happen in further batches but it might be a better idea to try and capture more of the target market within the first batch produced. This would increase sales and profits within the first batch and no doubt justify the tooling upgrades/modifications. For example I won't be buying the Regional Railways 158 or the EMT 158 because I don't model the era or area. However if a Northern Rail Blue and Purple or the new Northern Rail white livery were produced if I could afford them I would buy both. So it just shows how much the liveries produced can attract the market. The first two liveries aren't for me but if the Northern Rail liveries were produced I would be very interested.

 

I would think that if the first two models sell well Bachmann will make the 158s a more common, ongoing project throughout their announcements and product range. I am sure we will see more liveries produced in the future, after the first batch as this would provide more models to be released in further years/announcements.

Edited July 12, 2017 by DRS Crewe On A Mission

[bart2day]

The delay and longer process in model production is another reason why second hand models have retained more of their value, and indeed some of them have seen their value grow. Things such as the 158 have seen their value grow as they have not been produced much and with the likes of Bachmann having delays in making models, some runs of some classes have become scarce as they are snapped up by some modellers looking to get a model of a certain type.

 

This is supply and demand at work. Supply has gone down and demand is there, so the price has gone up. Bachmann might view this as a means to justify the price rise that they might be considering if people are wanting to pay so much for a second hand model that previously might have gone for £50-70 but is now going for £90, £100, 120?

 

Question is will the supply of a new model create sufficient demand for the new model to be purchased at a higher price? I think it will and the supply of the new model should lower the price of the second hand models still on the market as a better one is made. However, Bachmann are still only planning on two liveries for release, which I think should be increased to 4 to make up for the delay in the production and planning, as they could still release ones that would not clash given the modelling periods and areas they serve - such as Regional Railways, South West Trains, Northern Rail blue and purple and Scotrail.

I also think that models being made now are getting more and more complex. As a result, fitting DCC Sound to a model with so much wiring in it now, might make the purchase of one fitted more value for money rather than buying one and then having to risk damage during the refit.

 

So it all depends on the price Bachmann aim for - but theres many factors at work here. More than many realise...

I completely agree. I am seriously considering buying a second hand one and repainting into EMT livery, despite them being a bit 'basic' in terms of DCC and the size of the motor. Would work out much cheaper, although the prices of second hand 158s are rising and finding brand new ones are a rarity.

 

As for the demand for the new retooled model, I think it all depends on the quality/price tradeoff. If Bachmann can produce a highly detailed model without charging the earth (which I would say would be £275-300 plus) then I would expect it to be successful. As the previous poster alluded to it would be nice if Bachmann did something similar to Hornby with their class 153s and keep the 158s as part of an ongoing range and release one or two new liveries a year.

Edited July 13, 2017 by bart2day

[ruggedpeak]

I think the delays are in part due to the challenges that Bachmann and Hornby are facing from new entrants. The 158 requires a substantial investment with no guarantee of a decent return, whilst others like Rapido and DJM are entering the market at little real risk because others are carrying the bulk of the risk through crowd funding, commissions etc. This is also why in the time Bachmann haven't delivered the 158 and 90 etc they have delivered a lot of commissions and continue to do so. Why would you divert time and money into the risk of a new tooling unless a return was guaranteed (eg Kernow's 4TC). Far better from a business perspective to take the low risk profits with numerous 66 liveries etc.

 

I also feel the success of the smaller outfits like Realtrack is making them more risk averse. There is a natural support for the new entrants, yet the irony is much of these are in fact just fronts for Rapido in various disguises. Smart business strategy, and making life difficult for the incumbents. Bachmann are reacting - why are criticising Bachmann for not putting cash at risk whilst lauding Rapido for not putting it's cash on the line? Our behaviours as customers no longer support the traditional model development model (sic) as we are busy pre-ordering the latest Rapido (aka Realtrack/Revolution/Rails etc) commission. If I was Bachmann I'd be looking for pre-orders for the 158.

 

Edited for format.

Edited July 13, 2017 by ruggedpeak

[Legend]

I think it's just lack of capacity, frankly, and possibly better margin items to fill their factory with. Bachmann have admitted they were over ambitious announcing too many projects . We know that Kader factory is full , so it's probably been on back burner. I don't think Realtrack or Rapidos entry has had an effect on it so far, although if they don't get there skates on it , it might!