full brake coaches

[mswjr]

Hi all,i apologize for my ignorance ,but i do not know the answer,The more i look online the more confused i get,

    Im putting some 1960/70s passenger trains together,and while buying mostly mk 1 coaches,Ive seen some nice full brake (bg)

      I want to know did these run in passenger trains and if so could they be anywhere in the rake,or did they just run on parcel trains.

 Sorry if this has been asked before.  Garry

[jwealleans]

Traditionally, most of their work was in parcels trains, but some were usually reserved for principal expresses. Your era is some way after mine, but if you look at this article on the prewar Flying Scotsman, for example, you'll see that a BG is included in the formation. This practice dated back to Victorian times when more affluent passengers would travel with a whole household and associated luggage.

 

In your period, try some of Dave Ford's photographs or Robert Carroll's Yahoo group to read up on the booked formations for specific trains.

 

My area of interest is the former LNER, but I don't believe other railways or regions operated much differently.

Edited July 6, 2017 by jwealleans

[Fat Controller]

Hi all,i apologize for my ignorance ,but i do not know the answer,The more i look online the more confused i get,

    Im putting some 1960/70s passenger trains together,and while buying mostly mk 1 coaches,Ive seen some nice full brake (bg)

      I want to know did these run in passenger trains and if so could they be anywhere in the rake,or did they just run on parcel trains.

 Sorry if this has been asked before.  Garry

They seemed to be the first or last vehicles on most loco-hauled passenger services during the period you're looking at; in 1963, BR introduced a point-to-point parcels service called 'Red Star', and the extra van capacity was needed to deal with this. Unlike the normal parcels service, you would take your parcel to the station, and would be told which train it would be put on; you could then call the destinataire, and arrange for collection. Initially, the service worked only between stations which had a direct service; this would change in later years.

[Joseph_Pestell]

At one time, it was compulsory for the first vehicle in a passenger train to be a full brake, to act as a barrier vehicle in case of collision. There is a thread on here that has the date when that ceased to be the case in the UK. It continued in France for loco-hauled express trains until quite recently (1970s?).

 

On some services that split en-route, e.g. Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, a Full Brake could be found in the centre of the train. No problem with this as there was a side corridor with the luggage areas partitioned off with a wire partition.

[GordonC]

I know latterly some of the Far North trains had a BG in the middle of a rake of 4 or 5 coaches normally. The BG presumably required for the quantity of goods or parcels being dropped off en-route.

 

Also if you're looking at overnight trains some of them may have been formed largely of BGs with limited passenger coaches since they were primarily parcels or post trains but with coaches to convey passengers en-route too

[LNER4479]

It is also worth pointing out that there is a requirement for guard's accommodation to be provided somewhere in the train. Sometimes, the full brake might be the only vehicle in the train with guard's accommodation hence its presence even if it actually carried no luggage, mail or parcels.

 

I seem to remember this being the case on the WCML in the 1980's prior to the introduction of MkIII DVT working. A batch of MkI BGs were made suitable for 110mph operation and marshalled at the end of what was otherwise a complete MkIII rake. There was not otherwise a MkIII brake vehicle type, such as a BSO or BFK (as there had been in the MkII build), although three MkIII FOs were so modified I also seem to recall (17173-17175?)

Edited July 6, 2017 by LNER4479

[The Stationmaster]

The main reasons for using BGs was to accommodate the volume of scheduled mail and expected parcels traffic.  Plus of course they were available whereas brake vehicles with passenger accommodation were in demand for a wide variety of trains.

 

We (BR) used to schedule Parcels Post in accordance with the figures supplied by the Post Office taking into account station dwell times and the expected quantities and the latter could be quite considerable on some trains - 50 bags of Parcel Post collected during a journey (even allowing for subtractions enroute) was not unusual on some mainline trains on the Western and of course it was completely separate from Letter Mail (which was almost exclusively handled by PO staff anyway).  Throw in (railway) parcels traffic, which could again be quite considerable from some stations although generally it was preferred to load it to Parcels Trains, increasing quantities of Red Star parcels plus internal railway mail and parcels and some vans could get quite full!

[chrisf]

Mike SM's post above reminds me.  From, I think, the winter of 1959-60 a BG was added to the formation of the Red Dragon [for younger readers, a prestige Western Region train between Carmarthen and Padddington].  A theory advanced at a talk I attended recently is that it was needed to convey material from a printer.  Any other ideas?

 

Sorry for digressing again!

 

Chris

[Edwin_m]

It is also worth pointing out that there is a requirement for guard's accommodation to be provided somewhere in the train. Sometimes, the full brake might be the only vehicle in the train with guard's accommodation hence its presence even if it actually carried no luggage, mail or parcels.

 

I seem to remember this being the case on the WCML in the 1980's prior to the introduction of MkIII DVT working. A batch of MkI BGs were made suitable for 110mph operation and marshalled at the end of what was otherwise a complete MkIII rake. There was not otherwise a MkIII brake vehicle type, such as a BSO or BFK (as there had been in the MkII build), although three MkIII FOs were so modified I also seem to recall (17173-17175?)

Correct, except I think the BFOs were built as such rather than being modified. 

[Edwin_m]

At one time, it was compulsory for the first vehicle in a passenger train to be a full brake, to act as a barrier vehicle in case of collision. There is a thread on here that has the date when that ceased to be the case in the UK. It continued in France for loco-hauled express trains until quite recently (1970s?).

 

On some services that split en-route, e.g. Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, a Full Brake could be found in the centre of the train. No problem with this as there was a side corridor with the luggage areas partitioned off with a wire partition.

Was that ever the case in the UK?  I've heard of rules requiring luggage compartments or failing that passenger compartments locked out of use, but not to the extent of a whole coach.  It would in any case only have been workable above a certain train length (there were plenty of 2-coach trains...).

 

In the 70s and 80s at least, there were few if any Glasgow/Edinburgh splitters from Euston.  There were splitters on cross-country routes but these normally had a half-brake in each portion rather than a full brake. 

[rodent279]

From memory, many WCML express trains in the 1980's had full brakes in, most with B4 bogies, and some authorised for 110mph running from 1984.

[The Johnster]

Don't apologise for your ignorance, Garry, the fact that you've asked shows that you are trying to get it as right as you can, which is not the action of an ignorant man at all.  

 

A full brake coach, coded BG or B if it wasn't gangwayed, I.e provided with corridor connections for through access to the rest of the train (there were no mk1s in this form, GUVs without brake compartments were used instead), was a very versatile vehicle, having a good space for parcels and mails, and a guard's brake compartment amidships.  It could be seen in parcels trains, either as guards accommodation or just used as a van, and in passenger trains, where it might be part of a fixed formation or added to accommodate seasonal traffic, such as summer weekend workings to the West Country.  By the 70s, differences in use of what had originally been a standard all-purpose mk1 vehicle had become entrenched, and some were fitted with B4 bogies for 100mph running with rakes of mk2 air conditioned stock; this was definitely a feature of the WR's Paddington-Bristol and South Wales trains at this time, as the WR had not been allocated any 'half brake' mk2 airconditioned BFO or BSO vehicles.  These air-braked BGs were fitted with through wiring for ETH and air condtitioning and were a 'permanent' part of these sets of coaches.  At the same time, mk1 BGs could be seen as brake vehicles on trains of mk1 stock, or in parcels trains.  Some had B1 bogies and some of those were in plain blue livery and used on parcels/mail circuits. In general, those used on passenger trains regularly went through carriage washers and it showed.  A few lined maroon examples were still around in parcels traffic at this time.  If you are building up rakes of mk1s for a 60s/70s layout you will need some BGs.  They were always a handy thing to have around, and demand for them increased with the introduction of red star, a very successful service for some time.  They also featured in TPO services, and the guard on such trains usually rode in one.

 

As to where they were marshalled in the train, it depends on the train.  You could run up to 10 passenger carrying vehicles behind the brake van in which the guard was riding, and the WR's mk2 airconditioed trains ran with the BG at the end away from the buffers at Paddington (not that trains didn't turn up the wrong way round after out of course diversions and upset porters and postal staff occasionally), and I believe this was the practice on the ECML as well.  Specific requirements such as trains splitting or being coupled together might result in trains having more than one brake vehicle, and at different positions in the train; the guard, or senior guard if there was more than one, rode in the rearmost brake compartment.  So you can put them anywhere so long as there are no more than 10 passenger carrying vehicles behind them, but the general rule was one at the end of the train, and at the down end on a London train

 

In this period, there were still some LMS Stanier, LNER Thompson, and GWR Hawksworth BGs about, in plain blue livery and in parcels use; you wouldn't have seen them on passenger trains (cue flood of photos showing them on passenger trains) as a rule.  There were also some Southern Railway outside framed wooden bodied'B' vehicles, non gangwayed, which had been retained because they were fitted with stoves and were useful as guard's accommodation on parcels trains that were not steam heated in winter; in 1969 a single manning agreement for drivers allowed guards on such trains to travel in the rear cab of the loco, but the 'B's lasted a while.  In general, they were so filthy that they could have been carrying any livery, but the numbers were sometimes cleaned and you could make out SR malachite or rail blue.  

 

Summing up:-

 

: B4 bogies on trains with B4 bogies for 100mph running (IIRC none were fitted with commonwealth bogies at that time).  Air braked.

 

: Blue/grey livery for passenger trains, usually B4 bogies but some B1, with B4 predominating increasingly towards the end of the period when TOPS numbers appeared on locos. Air or vacuum brakes.

 

: Blue/grey, blue, and some lined maroon livery for parcels trains, B1 bogies.  Vacuum braked.

 

 

Note that air and vacuum braked stock do not run together in normal circumstances, except for yard shunting movements in which the brakes are isolated anyway,

Edited July 6, 2017 by The Johnster

[anroar53]

Hi all,i apologize for my ignorance ,but i do not know the answer,The more i look online the more confused i get,

    Im putting some 1960/70s passenger trains together,and while buying mostly mk 1 coaches,Ive seen some nice full brake (bg)

      I want to know did these run in passenger trains and if so could they be anywhere in the rake,or did they just run on parcel trains.

 Sorry if this has been asked before.  Garry

1970s West Coast Formations usually had the 1st Class coaches at the London End. Although there were Mark 1 and early Mark 2 BFKs the formations of later Mark 2d/e and Mark 3s usually had a full brake at the London end. This, apart from Mails and Parcels, was a requirement when the stock was moved out of the station. Although some ECS went to Willesden a good number were worked to the Downside Carriage Shed at Camden. The trains were hauled through the Carriage Washer at Camden, and then were propelled back into the Carriage Shed. This move required a Brake vehicle that the Shunter had to ride in. Trains from the Downside shed to the station were hauled out of the shed, then propelled back into the station, the Shunter riding in the Brake Van at the station end.

The 1970s was before widespread 'push-pull' came into common usage, so propelling moves requiring a brake van at the London end of the train was the norm. At the other end of the train it was more likely to be a late Mark 2 BSO.

In the early 1970s when there were several Barrow/Carlisle workings which split at Preston sometimes a Full Brake would be found in the middle of the formation, although it usually tended to be a Mark 1 or early Mark 2 BSK/BSO.

 

Andy.

[Rivercider]

At one time, it was compulsory for the first vehicle in a passenger train to be a full brake, to act as a barrier vehicle in case of collision. There is a thread on here that has the date when that ceased to be the case in the UK. It continued in France for loco-hauled express trains until quite recently (1970s?).

 

On some services that split en-route, e.g. Euston to Glasgow/Edinburgh, a Full Brake could be found in the centre of the train. No problem with this as there was a side corridor with the luggage areas partitioned off with a wire partition.

In the TOPS era (from about 1973) the first two characters of the TOPS code would identify the vans with a gangway.

 edit - The gangwayed ones were the vans normally formed into in a passenger rake, non gangwayed vans were sometimes added as 'tail traffic'

to the rear of passenger trains.

 

NA  - Brake Van Bogie Gangway

NB  - Brake Van Brute

NC  - Brake Van News

ND  - Brake Van Gangway dual heated 90mph

NE  - Brake Van Gangway 100mph

NF  - Brake Van Bogie Non Gangway

 

 

cheers

Edited July 6, 2017 by Rivercider

[anroar53]

1970s West Coast Formations usually had the 1st Class coaches at the London End. Although there were Mark 1 and early Mark 2 BFKs the formations of later Mark 2d/e and Mark 3s usually had a full brake at the London end. This, apart from Mails and Parcels, was a requirement when the stock was moved out of the station. Although some ECS went to Willesden a good number were worked to the Downside Carriage Shed at Camden. The trains were hauled through the Carriage Washer at Camden, and then were propelled back into the Carriage Shed. This move required a Brake vehicle that the Shunter had to ride in. Trains from the Downside shed to the station were hauled out of the shed, then propelled back into the station, the Shunter riding in the Brake Van at the station end.

The 1970s was before widespread 'push-pull' came into common usage, so propelling moves requiring a brake van at the London end of the train was the norm. At the other end of the train it was more likely to be a late Mark 2 BSO.

In the early 1970s when there were several Barrow/Carlisle workings which split at Preston sometimes a Full Brake would be found in the middle of the formation, although it usually tended to be a Mark 1 or early Mark 2 BSK/BSO.

 

Andy.

Having had a little more thought there used to be the use of 'pre-set' Vans. At the beginning of the 1970s at St. Pancras, a BG Full Brake was put on the Buffer Stops of Platform 6 at about 1930 each evening. This was one of the two platforms with direct road access. During the evening the van would be loaded from lorries. The inward service to form the 2305 Sheffield would arrive in platform 7, and then be shunted back onto the BG in platform 6 and attached to the outward train. I believe, if my memory is still functioning, that a lot of the custom was for the Tote Bookmakers, taking stuff to Nottingham.

A similar working was done at Euston, with a BG put down platform 14 for loading, which was eventually attached to the rear of the 0050 Liverpool & Manchester.

[robertcwp]

Hi all,i apologize for my ignorance ,but i do not know the answer,The more i look online the more confused i get,

    Im putting some 1960/70s passenger trains together,and while buying mostly mk 1 coaches,Ive seen some nice full brake (bg)

      I want to know did these run in passenger trains and if so could they be anywhere in the rake,or did they just run on parcel trains.

 Sorry if this has been asked before.  Garry

Which region are you modelling, how long a train can you accommodate and do you have any more precise year in mind than 1960/70s?

[mswjr]

Which region are you modelling, how long a train can you accommodate and do you have any more precise year in mind than 1960/70s?

I am building a real location here in cheltenham ,Malvern road east,It is a bit between two bridges and i remember it well,but it is slowly all disappearing,Hence my layout,

        It will be run with 1930s GWR up to the 1970s,But the signals will only be correct for the 1960s onward,I am collecting the mk1 coach rakes,as i remember the blue diesels well,

          I can remember the 44s 45s very well,But did not take any notice at the time what was behind them,as most spotters at the time i suppose,

    All the info supplied above is most appreciated and very welcome many thanks, Garry

[Clive Mortimore]

You learn something new every day. Never heard of a "Half Brake" in the 50 years I have been interested in railways. I have always thought a passenger coach with a hand brake and accommodation for the guard with space for luggage and parcels to be called a Brake Second or a Brake Composite Corridor and so on.

 

I was also in the belief that the van portions were at the end of the train to keep the passengers away from the staff trying to load and unload the parcels but I could be very wrong with this. :nono:

[The Johnster]

Brake vans tended to be at the end, and not always the back end, for two reasons, Clive.  The first, historical, reason was that in the days before continuous brakes they needed to be there to assist in controlling the train and to prevent vehicles from running away in the event of a coupling breaking, and the second, more pertinent to anyone modelling the post-1870s, arose out of the first; station facilities had developed with space for barrows and so forth with parcels and mails at the ends of the platforms and passenger facilities in the middle (of course, there were plenty of exceptions).  The parcels traffic needed to be loaded away from the passengers, as there is enough chaos as it is, and needs to be kept under the eye of the guard to avoid pilferage once the train is moving, or locked up when his duties take him away from the van.

 

Station dwell times are much reduced if parcels and postal staff know where the vehicle with their stuff in is going to come to rest so that they can be there to meet it and start work as soon as the train has stopped and they can open the doors.  To an extent, it doesn't matter where the van is, so long as everyone knows where it's going to be, but most stations have more room for this sort of work away from the booking office, waiting rooms, buffet, etc. This has implications for trains diverted off their normal routes that end up the wrong way round, and Control must decide whether to allow them to continue, in which case they will lose further time at stations, or, if possible, get them the right way around, which will, of course, take time in itself..  What the passengers want is to come out on to the platform and not have to walk, perhaps with luggage and recalcitrant kids, too far to their coaches, or to have to negotiate fleets of trolleys and barrows.  First Class passengers on London trains like to be at the concourse end when they get there, or the lawn end at Paddington, and not have to walk past the great unwashed as they unload parcels at the other end; furthermore, the aforementioned great unwashed don't want passengers getting in the way of their work.

 

Of course, brake vans were not always at the end, either, and many shorter sets for branch and secondary work had them towards the centre, where they would be handy to the small parcels office in the station buildings of the more bucolic operations.

 

I had not heard the term 'half brake' either but it's meaning is obvious.  'Full brake' I have heard, and used while working on the railway.  A brake vehicle does not have to have space for luggage and parcels, either, though mk1s do.  The Severn Valley Railway has some Collett brake vehicles with practically no such space, just a guard's compartment.  Most railways built a variety of passenger brake vehicles tailored to suit the needs of particular traffic; the provision of standard, one size fits all, types is a post war feature.

Edited July 6, 2017 by The Johnster

[robertcwp]

I am building a real location here in cheltenham ,Malvern road east,It is a bit between two bridges and i remember it well,but it is slowly all disappearing,Hence my layout,

        It will be run with 1930s GWR up to the 1970s,But the signals will only be correct for the 1960s onward,I am collecting the mk1 coach rakes,as i remember the blue diesels well,

          I can remember the 44s 45s very well,But did not take any notice at the time what was behind them,as most spotters at the time i suppose,

    All the info supplied above is most appreciated and very welcome many thanks, Garry

Join my Yahoo Group - link below - most post-war WR through carriage workings up to the late 1970s are available in PDF via that group.  

[AncientMariner]

Going back to the mid-sixties, I recall that a daily newspaper train appeared in the public time table, leaving London Liverpool Street at 04:00 for Cambridge and then northward.  This was formed of a couple of passenger coaches and parcels vans.  Not surprisingly, there were lengthy stops on the way and IIRC, the 56 mile trip to Cambridge took the best part of 2.5 hours.

 

I also recall another similar newspaper service which left London Victoria in the small hours for Brighton, haulage was a class 73 electro-diesel.  On the several occasions I used this service in the early/mid 70’s, passenger accommodation was in a single BSK, and its 4 compartments were always full.

 

John

[RichardV]

Going back to the mid-sixties, I recall that a daily newspaper train appeared in the public time table, leaving London Liverpool Street at 04:00 for Cambridge and then northward.  This was formed of a couple of passenger coaches and parcels vans.  Not surprisingly, there were lengthy stops on the way and IIRC, the 56 mile trip to Cambridge took the best part of 2.5 hours.

 

I also recall another similar newspaper service which left London Victoria in the small hours for Brighton, haulage was a class 73 electro-diesel.  On the several occasions I used this service in the early/mid 70’s, passenger accommodation was in a single BSK, and its 4 compartments were always full.

 

John

 

Similarly, in "On Great Central Lines", Robert Robotham described the working of the stock for the 0045 Marylebone to Nottingham Victoria newspaper train in the mid 1960s, which included three passenger coaches along with a varied selection of vans for the newspapers. The vans were worked back to London as the 1115 Nottingham Victoria to Neasden parcels train, while the coaches were attached to the standard four coach rake used on the 1715 Nottingham Victoria to Marylebone to provide extra rush hour capacity. This sort of stuff is worth bearing in mind to make working of passenger trains and the like interesting.

 

RV.

[rodent279]

And of course there was the legendary 2A23, & 1A23, aka The Milk Empties, which ran at 0235 or 0350, all stations Euston to Bletchley, Mo-Sa. This ran from sometime around the Creation, to about 1988? (ish), and usually consisted of a battered Mk1 BSK, which had defnitlely seen better days, a BG & a couple of GUV's. Motive power was (usually) cl 81-85/86, with at least classes 25, 31, 37 & 47 also known to have put in an appearance. The acceleration with an AC electric & 3 or 4 mk1's was tremendous!

Why it was called the Milk Empties I don't know, I would imagine sometime up until the 1960's it probably did carry empty churns, but mostly it seemed to carry sleeping railwaymen returning home off duty!

 

Stuff of legends eh, South of 1A? :-)

 

cheers N

Edited July 6, 2017 by rodent279

[The Stationmaster]

You learn something new every day. Never heard of a "Half Brake" in the 50 years I have been interested in railways. I have always thought a passenger coach with a hand brake and accommodation for the guard with space for luggage and parcels to be called a Brake Second or a Brake Composite Corridor and so on.

 

I was also in the belief that the van portions were at the end of the train to keep the passengers away from the staff trying to load and unload the parcels but I could be very wrong with this. :nono:

 

Once continuous brakes had become established one important reason - actually required in the Rules & Regulations - was that a brake vehicle (van end outwards) was to be marshalled at each end of the train for safety reasons, i.e. it would be the bit to take the first hit in the event of a collision.  On the Western the only relaxation permitted was if the formation was shown otherwise in the coach working book.  But it is clear that by the early 1950s this was being observed in the breach to the extent that on two occasions very strong reminders were issued with one of them following a  collision on, I believe, the Eastern Region when a passenger died as a result of the brake end not being marshalled outward.

 

Things gradually changed in the early-middle 1960s with the final relaxation (c.1966 without re-checking the date) being the major change to allow up to 10 passenger carrying vehicles to be formed behind the brake van and effectively recognising the changes in coaching stock anda move to more fixed formation working on the principal mainlines.  (I'm sure I posted the relevant dates some time back in another thread).

[Clive Mortimore]

If the brake on the outer end was a safety issue why were 1950s DMUs and EMUs built with them in the middle of the train?