00 Bullhead Printed Point/Turnout Bases

[Trog]

A few more possibilities an early LMS FB baseplate and BR ST baseplates with ST and Kinetra clips.

[hayfield]

C&L produce ST baseplates, trouble is there are no Slide or check rail chairs to match

[Trog]

ST and Kinetra baseplated S&C was usually of the early inclined rail flat bottom rail designs. So probably more appropriate for general use in early BR period layouts. However they can still be found being used on layouts that have not been relayed since that time. Mostly in sidings and minor lines. Although you can always find exceptions for example there was a lead in the down slow at Litchfield on the TV line I think into the early 2000's which had BR1 type baseplates but branded LMS and the old type of 113lb FB rail. It must have been one of the earlier FB leads to be installed.

[jburgt]

Last month I saw the Templot program for the fitrst time. It's rather difficult, but it has a very good help system.

I recognized the possibilities to generate CAD files for lasercutting my wooden sleepers, and combine them with 3D printed chairs. The only difficulty was the exact measurement of the chairs. What room must be needed to fit a bullhead rail?

 

Fortunately, I saw the wonderful information of Martin and AndyID, they were doing similar things with Templot.
I asked Andy for help. And he send me today a .DXF file with the measurements of his chair. So I could use the important dimensions.

 

Earlier I found a drawing of a chair on the internet, I used it for my own chair.

 

 

The chair of Andy can be projected on this image:

 

 

And here you see my chair, I made earlier month. But I changed the room for the rail.

It's now similar to the version of Andy.

 

 

But the main difference is that I add also two small pins at the bottom of the chair. Here is my chair in 3D.

 

 

To lasercut sleepers out of the 2mm MDF sheet, I generate a specific track in Templot. The generated CAD file in .DXF format is imported to my own CAD system (Onshape), and there I add the holes for the chairs, and some extra for the little screws to connect the track to my layout.The two pins makes it possible to fit the chair easy to the lasercutted holes.

 

 

And this will be the end result:

 

 

Andy told me, that his chairs only fit the SMP code 75 rail. So I wil test them.

The chairs are combined to 3D print them. The size/details are so small, that they only can be printed in resin.

 

 

Well Andy, Thank you for your support. I let you know what and how in the future.

 

Gr, Hans

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, jburgt said:

 

Earlier I found a drawing of a chair on the internet, I used it for my own chair.

 

 

That's actually a stylised chair generated by my development version of Templot, see:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3307&forum_id=1#p26218

 

You can download a DXF file containing it from this post:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3511&forum_id=6#p27892

 

There is a drawing of a GWR chair in this post by Tom Allen:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3511&forum_id=6#p27901

 

Chair designs vary a lot according to different railway companies and time periods. The most common design is the REA-pattern chairs, which have 3 fixing screws rather than 2 through-bolts.

 

If you ask on the Templot Club forum, there are lots of chair drawings and info and photos online.

 

Your track is looking good, but your 3D chair has the wrong shape for the wooden key. It fits only into the rail web, not below it.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited August 4, 2020 by martin_wynne

[AndyID]

Hi Hans,

 

The chair profile I used works for FDM printing. The filament is quite strong and slightly flexible. Resin can be very brittle although now there are some types of resin that are more flexible.

 

This is what I think the SMP Code 75 bullhead rail looks like in cross-section (approximately )

 

 

Cheers!

Andy

[AndyID]

6 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

That's actually a stylised chair generated by my development version of Templot, see:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3307&forum_id=1#p26218

 

There is a drawing of a GWR chair in this post by Tom Allen:

 

 https://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=3511&forum_id=6#p27901

 

Chair designs vary a lot according to different railway companies and time periods. The most common design is the REA-pattern chairs, which have 3 fixing screws rather than 2 through-bolts.

 

If you ask on the Templot Club forum, there are lots of chair drawings and info and photos online.

 

Your track is looking good, but your 3D chair has the wrong shape for the wooden key. It fits only into the rail web, not below it.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Hi Martin,

 

I did no end of messing about (and I'm probably not done yet) trying to come up with a profile that would actually hold the rails vertical to maintain correct gauge. It's not too difficult to achieve that if the wheel flanges are to scale (P4 perhaps) but for 00 the height of the inside jaw has to be lowered substantially to clear the flanges. Unfortunately that tends to tip the rail inwards which mucks up the gauge.

 

FB rail is a lot simpler

 

Cheers!

Andy

 

 

 

 

[jburgt]

@Martin,

 

For the design of my chair, I used also some other pictures:

 

 

 

Earlier I tried to realize this concept with chairs of C&L. But it was a disaster. Lasercutting sleepers is rather easy. But the chairs of C&L are not good to handle. They turn wrong under the rail when fixing it. And it’s difficult to get them in the right position. So I want to try it with the fixing pins. Functionality is for me more important than shape.

 

 

And I have two versions of the chair, with the wooden key to the left, and one with it to the right.

 

@Andy,

 

Thx for the profile of the SMP rail. Now I understand the inner form of your jaw.

And I want to use a flexible resin for it.

 

Gr, Hans

 

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by jburgt

[hayfield]

3 hours ago, jburgt said:

 

Earlier I tried to realize this concept with chairs of C&L. But it was a disaster. Lasercutting sleepers is rather easy. But the chairs of C&L are not good to handle. They turn wrong under the rail when fixing it. And it’s difficult to get them in the right position. So I want to try it with the fixing pins. Functionality is for me more important than shape.

 

 

And I have two versions of the chair, with the wooden key to the left, and one with it to the right.

 

@Andy,

 

Thx for the profile of the SMP rail. Now I understand the inner form of your jaw.

And I want to use a flexible resin for it.

 

Gr, Hans

 

 

 

 

GR Hans

 

There are many of us using both the C&L and Exactoscale systems without any issue at all, threading the rail is a knack which many quickly learn and far more complex formations are built without any issue

 

There are two things which may cause issues

 

1/   If the rail head cannot rotate in the gauge gauge widening will occur, only use gauges which allow this

 

2/  The quality of rail differs from make to make, oversize rail will not fit (as one society has found with its own brand) this may be caused by old worn out dyes. This is something Phil at C&L has to keep a keen eye on in quality control.

[jburgt]

@Hayfield,

 

Without any doubt I believe a lot of people are content with the C&L chairs. Only it’s not good for me.

 

Gr, Hans

[hayfield]

Hans

 

I am certain you could use the system, at an exhibition I was demonstrating at a youngster with her parents in tow asked to have a go, the first 3 chairs took a while to thread, then the penny dropped and she was able to thread the rest very quickly.  

[Jeff Smith]

A 45 degree chamfer on each side of the rail end makes threading very easy.

[hayfield]

Jeff

As the chairs are designed to be a snug fit to the C&L rail (I believe Exactoscale is to the same standard) it is imperative to file off the burs under at the sides and top of the foot of the rail to ensure that the rail is both easy to fit but more importantly does not damage the chairs. I would have thought this would be plain common sense, still I am a bit old skchool 

[jburgt]

@Hayfield,

 

Certainly some will have succes with the C&L system. I give my idea a chance. I got it from TT Filigran, and I saw it in real work. Just simple and easy. Available in TT and H0. Only with the wrong chairs and wrong flatbed rail.

[hayfield]

Nothing wrong with coming up with alternative ideas, its the way the hobby moves forward and in fact the Exactoscale system works similarly but with pips on the track base and holes in the bottom of the chairs, the turnout bases are available for P4 and most can be built to EM gauge. You have hit the nail on the head with the fact that the chairs and rail must be built to the same exacting standards. Many think all code 75 rail is the same, its not!!  The dyes overtime deteriorate and that is assuming it was correct at the start, for injection molding and 3D printing its important the rail fits the chairs, rail drawn from worn out dies work properly or not at all 

 

Certainly once the level of finish/detail have improved and more importantly commercial costs tumble 3D printing is the way forward, but for those without printers 3D printing is expensive with the quality of some items quite poor

 

On the other hand injection molded track parts are in use on most layouts (Flexi track). The plastic chairs and timber system has been proved to be highly successful for the past 40 odd years, with the introduction of the Exactoscale system Highly detailed turnouts and crossings can be made, the new sprues for C&L are adding to the amount of additional special chairs available (with more in the pipeline). as I said at sometime 3D will come into its own, certainly there is a market for preprinted track bases to make life easier for the builder 

[AndyID]

Crikey! Almost a year since the last entry.

 

Here are models for a bullhead turnout crossing. What you may find interesting (or probably won't ) is that they were all generated from four basic elements:

 

Right and left jaws and right and left bases.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

Those four basic elements can be used to generate a whole range of crossing angles. All possible angles from 6.5 to 10 in 00 and possibly a good bit further than that depending on scale, required fidelity etc.

 

 

The turnout geometry is, of course, produced by Templot.

 

The chair designs were generated in Turbocad. I can make them available to anyone who wants them.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jburgt]

15 minutes ago, AndyID said:

Crikey! Almost a year since the last entry.

 

Here are models for a bullhead turnout crossing. What you may find interesting (or probably won't ) is that they were all generated from four basic elements:

 

Right and left jaws and right and left bases.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

Those four basic elements can be used to generate a whole range of crossing angles. All possible angles from 6.5 to 10 in 00 and possibly a good bit further than that depending on scale, required fidelity etc.

 

 

The turnout geometry is, of course, produced by Templot.

 

The chair designs were generated in Turbocad. I can make them available to anyone who wants them.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Andy, for sure I want your chairs. But when added with a pin underneath, like the ones of TT Filigran would be marvelous. With Templot you can easy make a sleeper bed, you can lasercut from multiplex or MDF. For a point or a flextrack. Perhaps it solved my problem for my new project Corfe Castle. I heard about certain delivery problems at Peco. Send me a PM with your email adress, I send you mine.

[AndyID]

15 minutes ago, jburgt said:

Hi Andy, for sure I want your chairs. But when added with a pin underneath, like the ones of TT Filigran would be marvelous. With Templot you can easy make a sleeper bed, you can lasercut from multiplex or MDF. For a point or a flextrack. Perhaps it solved my problem for my new project Corfe Castle. I heard about certain delivery problems at Peco. Send me a PM with your email adress, I send you mine.

 

Hi Hans,

 

Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple (as if anything ever is ).

 

If you want to take advantage of this you will have to learn how to manipulate the models using some sort of CAD application on your PC. It's not terribly difficult but it will take a non trivial investment of your time.

 

I can help by describing here the methods that I've used but unfortunately I'm not in a position to generate custom designs for the enormous number of possible configurations.

 

Cheers,

Andy

[jburgt]

16 minutes ago, AndyID said:

 

Hi Hans,

 

Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately it's not quite that simple (as if anything ever is ).

 

If you want to take advantage of this you will have to learn how to manipulate the models using some sort of CAD application on your PC. It's not terribly difficult but it will take a non trivial investment of your time.

 

I can help by describing here the methods that I've used but unfortunately I'm not in a position to generate custom designs for the enormous number of possible configurations.

 

Cheers,

Andy

Hahaha, Well Andy… Not necessary, when you send it to me, I make my own variations. For me the most important thing is a proper printable chair suitable for a bullhead rail.

[martin_wynne]

31 minutes ago, jburgt said:

For me the most important thing is a proper printable chair suitable for a bullhead rail.

 

Hi,

 

See also: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/messin-with-resin-3d-printed-track.103/post-1838

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[jburgt]

46 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi,

 

See also: https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?threads/messin-with-resin-3d-printed-track.103/post-1838

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Hi Martin, I thought I had already an account on Templot. I made a new one. Please contact me, send me your email adress. I think your solution is suitable. Do you use wooden or 3D printed sleepers?

 

[martin_wynne]

29 minutes ago, jburgt said:

Please contact me, send me your email adress.

 

Hi Hans,

 

Please see paragraph 11 at: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/terms_of_use.php

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[jburgt]

24 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi Hans,

 

Please see paragraph 11 at: https://85a.uk/templot/companion/terms_of_use.php

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Fully clear. It’s a little bit unusual, but that’s your choice. I have to respect it. I Understand that I can download several CAD files. Are they available in different formats?

[martin_wynne]

1 minute ago, jburgt said:

Fully clear. It’s a little bit unusual, but that’s your choice. I have to respect it.

 

Hi Hans,

 

When Templot was a paid-for product 10 years ago, dealing with the volume of support emails made me ill.

 

I made it free for anyone to use on the strict condition you don't email me about it. If you can't post what you want on the public forum, I don't want to know about it.

 

I Understand that I can download several CAD files. Are they available in different formats?

 

You can't download CAD files. The intention and idea is that you generate them in Templot. Some users may be willing to share their exported files via the forum. Currently the chairing is experimental and a work-in-progress. At present and for the last 20 years you can do a full export of the track templates for CAD in 2D in DXF, or currently only the rails and timbers in 3D, in DXF and STL. In the next update version 228a I will switch the experimental chairing back on so that you can make some trial 3D prints.

 

The Templot program code is open-source if you want to join in the development fun, see:

 

 https://85a.uk/templot/club/index.php?forums/templotmec-nuts-and-bolts.5/

 

 old topic: https://85a.uk/templot/archive/topics/topic_3283.php

 

But please use to the Templot Club forum if you want to discuss it, not here on RMweb.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[AndyID]

On 23/06/2021 at 00:06, AndyID said:

Crikey! Almost a year since the last entry.

 

Here are models for a bullhead turnout crossing. What you may find interesting (or probably won't ) is that they were all generated from four basic elements:

 

Right and left jaws and right and left bases.

 

But wait! There's more!

 

Those four basic elements can be used to generate a whole range of crossing angles. All possible angles from 6.5 to 10 in 00 and possibly a good bit further than that depending on scale, required fidelity etc.

 

 

The turnout geometry is, of course, produced by Templot.

 

The chair designs were generated in Turbocad. I can make them available to anyone who wants them.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

CAD files are available at Templot.