7mm Southern Branch Line Terminus

[josh993]

Good Evening All,

 

I have recently been working on a new 7mm Southern Branch Line Terminus with a junction off to another branch. Having completed most of the track work and fitted all the point motors, the next task is wire the layout up and test it functionally. However, after this we'd like to turn out attention to signalling so we can get a rough idea of where they need to be mounted, where point rodding will be required and running cables to operate them before progressing with any scenic work. Unfortunately, signalling isn't really mine or my friends strong point so we could do with some advice, opinions and suggestions to progress things so I have turned to RMweb!

 

I have drawn up a plan of the layout in Templot Sketchboard, I have copied this into paint and added some lines to indicate the diamond crossing that is a double slip, the platform and a proposed location of the signal box. the Branch comes in from the top of the layout and the main line comes in from the right.

 

 

From what knowledge I have, I presume that there would be a bracket signal at the end of the platform. I presume this would have two main starter arms, one for each platform but would these give a route indication or would this be determined by the road that the signaler pulls off? In addition to this would each road require a subsidiary signal for shunting or would the main arm just be given? Moving down the line, on the main line there could be a section signal towards the end of the scenic section?

 

As for arriving at the terminus, I presume there would be a home bracket signal outside the main point. I am unsure what arms and indication this would require as you can effectively access the loop, platform 1, bay platform and yard from the main line. Again, I presume there would need to be a subsidiary arm or ground signal for shunting or when the platforms are occupied? I don't think the branch at the top requires any signalling as it is not on the scenic part of the layout for long enough to model any. However, I presume the yard and loop are going to need some ground signals, etc.

 

The layout is going to be set in Southern steam around the 1930s to 1940s.

 

We would be most appreciative if anyone could comment on the above or perhaps give some advice on the how the layout might of been signaled.

 

If anyone needs any further information to add comments for the signalling requirements, please fire away!

 

Thanks in Advance

Josh

Edited July 13, 2017 by josh993

[RailWest]

Well, for a start, each platform road will need a starting signal with two arms, one for the main and one for the branch routes. So either you will need 2 x 2-doll brackets, or one big bracket with 4 dolls as at Exmouth. And unless the branch disappears somehow immediately past the pointwork, then you will need a home signal for trains coming off the branch in the same way as for the main.

 

But how will the branch be worked? Having the bay as an arrival line will not help if everything then has to shunt across to the other side in order to run-round.

[two tone green]

The start of something nice. Good one.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well, for a start, each platform road will need a starting signal with two arms, one for the main and one for the branch routes. So either you will need 2 x 2-doll brackets, or one big bracket with 4 dolls as at Exmouth. And unless the branch disappears somehow immediately past the pointwork, then you will need a home signal for trains coming off the branch in the same way as for the main.

 

But how will the branch be worked? Having the bay as an arrival line will not help if everything then has to shunt across to the other side in order to run-round.

There must have been two of those 4-doll brackets at Exmouth as one could gain access to either route from all four platforms. But I agree it is the most likely solution for the starter although theatre indicators are also a possibility.

 

Ground discs probably OK for departure from the various sidings/loops but it would help if we could see what function they each have. The two upper sidings are lacking a trap point(s).

 

I think that it's reasonable to have an advanced starter at the right-hand end of the layout. Wire it so that it is interlocked by a switch controlled by the fiddleyard operative so that you know when he/she is ready to accept a train. Depending on what sort of scenic break you are planning, an outer home could also be placed there so that the fiddleyard operative can indicate when a train is ready to depart.

 

I really like the plan, with its sweeping curves. Might be worth adding a carriage siding or two alongside the main line.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Joseph_Pestell

[Rivercider]

There must have been two of those 4-doll brackets at Exmouth as one could gain access to either route from all four platforms. But I agree it is the most likely solution for the starter although theatre indicators are also a possibility.

 

 

 

 

Here is a view of Exmouth from 1963 showing the signals in the distance

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30937/8590831113/in/photolist-dV8Mmj-nf52xj-odAzjQ-dq4WF7-hntCcW-qhCbsh-hnuF2v-b1TQBt-nxKhKK-e6eUpQ-noXq1f-nuYQoh-dB6MAV-ndCsGT-e69fMP-e69fUe-hntvvG-nv9Qwr-dnV1N6-hnt4gr-e69fZD-hqjwkq-e6eUv3-e6eUAE-reur6P-hnuFMP-buFHpG-pVUWUH-ST23cQ-brPHdZ-hnt3z6-f9hJtY-bbRDfn-hnuGUD-brPGZ8-46DGvp-qX5en1-hnuGt8-ngxJMm-fQzr5u-91qV9L-62mYh9-nuWv13-e9tTCJ-e69fSc-dB6MA8-e69g9R-qXd5MB-e6eUEA-pKu2FM

 

 

Edit - and a closer view of the signals

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gricerman/15588283799/in/photolist-qXd5MB-e6eUEA-pKu2FM-bvnvqH-ab8cjY-hntDfN-dmfvvN-bbRDfc-8bgRY8-8bgRBt-bxkvRS-p1NFUs-ab8c3Q-xx681c-7NZXBJ-pSusms-Ud6LJp-5xHjKt-LEbQbS-MPCsFC-ARCXvx-yjBPoB-Mnjne3-Mpa83b-pagU1j-rkgb72-pagU2w-e69fQ8-o1cfb4-pgABcp-pFakTa-pajB4B-qb58nb-hq6Jcj-e6eUxy-q7LkXf-pPHZVb-9XFFX5-q9Ssca-gquxBx-e69gdT-qa3JCv-c7Tv2A-pPHZYN-qdmoUi-pd4isC-opTkZB-UxWAXF-CB9Ajt-vEJ7kr

 

cheers

Edited July 14, 2017 by Rivercider

[RailWest]

Indeed there were two 4-doll brackets at Exmouth in later years, but don't forget that in earlier days it only had two platform faces, not four. And the brackets shown in the picture IMHO looked even nicer when the arms were still LQ.

 

Which brings two points to mind:-

 

1. "The layout is going to be set in Southern steam around the 1930s to 1940s.." OK, but which pre-grouping part of the Southern, as that may have a bearing on what sort of signalling there would be?

2.  Although the Southern might be remembered for UQ arms on rail-built posts, these did not come into common use until the early 1930s. Even in the 1960s there were still many LQ arms on wooden or lattice posts. 

[josh993]

Thanks for all your replies - I've tried to reply to everyone's comments

 

 

Well, for a start, each platform road will need a starting signal with two arms, one for the main and one for the branch routes. So either you will need 2 x 2-doll brackets, or one big bracket with 4 dolls as at Exmouth. And unless the branch disappears somehow immediately past the pointwork, then you will need a home signal for trains coming off the branch in the same way as for the main.

 

But how will the branch be worked? Having the bay as an arrival line will not help if everything then has to shunt across to the other side in order to run-round.

 

 

Thanks for your feedback for the starting arms, out of interest do you know any other locations other than Exmouth that had similar signalling or would show these style signals?
 

The branch will disappear not to far past the point work, hence the thought process of not needing or trying to cram in a home.

 

The branch will mainly be worked on the basis of Push Pull rolling stock, with perhaps the odd small freight or normal passenger working. Whether this would then be shunt released from the bay or whether it would work straight into the main platform I am unsure, I had not given to much thought on this. 

 

 

There must have been two of those 4-doll brackets at Exmouth as one could gain access to either route from all four platforms. But I agree it is the most likely solution for the starter although theatre indicators are also a possibility.

 

Ground discs probably OK for departure from the various sidings/loops but it would help if we could see what function they each have. The two upper sidings are lacking a trap point(s).

 

I think that it's reasonable to have an advanced starter at the right-hand end of the layout. Wire it so that it is interlocked by a switch controlled by the fiddleyard operative so that you know when he/she is ready to accept a train. Depending on what sort of scenic break you are planning, an outer home could also be placed there so that the fiddleyard operative can indicate when a train is ready to depart.

 

I really like the plan, with its sweeping curves. Might be worth adding a carriage siding or two alongside the main line.

 

 

The two upper sidings are just general goods sidings, the siding above the bay will probably have a small goods shed and the most upper road will probably have a few coal staithes and various other unloading facilities. We did hum and har baout trap points when designing, but again, were slightly unsure where these would be needed much like the signalling requirements! The siding next to the station loco release will probably form a cattle dock or somewhere to leave wagons during shunting. The siding to the most bottom right is planned to be a small engine should with a turntable big enough to turn something up the size of a 4-4-0 T3 or T9, and the long siding above it is to store carriages or a part assembled freight train. I hope this perhaps helps and could shed some more light on the signalling required and which sidings could just be operated by ground levers.

 

I like your idea with the advanced started and outer home, this could slim line the operation of the layout and something that we have talked about in the past.

 

And thank you for your comments regarding the curves and design of the layout - Again, carriage sidings is something that was talked about but with the addition of the long head shunt and turntable feared it would make the layout feel cramped and perhaps little is less?

 

Here is a view of Exmouth from 1963 showing the signals in the distance

https://www.flickr.com/photos/30937/8590831113/in/photolist-dV8Mmj-nf52xj-odAzjQ-dq4WF7-hntCcW-qhCbsh-hnuF2v-b1TQBt-nxKhKK-e6eUpQ-noXq1f-nuYQoh-dB6MAV-ndCsGT-e69fMP-e69fUe-hntvvG-nv9Qwr-dnV1N6-hnt4gr-e69fZD-hqjwkq-e6eUv3-e6eUAE-reur6P-hnuFMP-buFHpG-pVUWUH-ST23cQ-brPHdZ-hnt3z6-f9hJtY-bbRDfn-hnuGUD-brPGZ8-46DGvp-qX5en1-hnuGt8-ngxJMm-fQzr5u-91qV9L-62mYh9-nuWv13-e9tTCJ-e69fSc-dB6MA8-e69g9R-qXd5MB-e6eUEA-pKu2FM

 

 

Edit - and a closer view of the signals

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gricerman/15588283799/in/photolist-qXd5MB-e6eUEA-pKu2FM-bvnvqH-ab8cjY-hntDfN-dmfvvN-bbRDfc-8bgRY8-8bgRBt-bxkvRS-p1NFUs-ab8c3Q-xx681c-7NZXBJ-pSusms-Ud6LJp-5xHjKt-LEbQbS-MPCsFC-ARCXvx-yjBPoB-Mnjne3-Mpa83b-pagU1j-rkgb72-pagU2w-e69fQ8-o1cfb4-pgABcp-pFakTa-pajB4B-qb58nb-hq6Jcj-e6eUxy-q7LkXf-pPHZVb-9XFFX5-q9Ssca-gquxBx-e69gdT-qa3JCv-c7Tv2A-pPHZYN-qdmoUi-pd4isC-opTkZB-UxWAXF-CB9Ajt-vEJ7kr

 

cheers

 

Thank you for them pictures, I've saved a copy for personal use and sure they will come in very useful when finalising the signalling.

 

Indeed there were two 4-doll brackets at Exmouth in later years, but don't forget that in earlier days it only had two platform faces, not four. And the brackets shown in the picture IMHO looked even nicer when the arms were still LQ.

 

Which brings two points to mind:-

 

1. "The layout is going to be set in Southern steam around the 1930s to 1940s.." OK, but which pre-grouping part of the Southern, as that may have a bearing on what sort of signalling there would be?

2.  Although the Southern might be remembered for UQ arms on rail-built posts, these did not come into common use until the early 1930s. Even in the 1960s there were still many LQ arms on wooden or lattice posts. 

 

1. I should of mentioned that, the pre-grouping will be based on the LSWR.

2. Thank you for that piece of information.

 

Again, thanks for all your comments and look forward to any additional pointers.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks for all your replies - I've tried to reply to everyone's comments

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your feedback for the starting arms, out of interest do you know any other locations other than Exmouth that had similar signalling or would show these style signals?

 

The branch will disappear not to far past the point work, hence the thought process of not needing or trying to cram in a home.

 

The branch will mainly be worked on the basis of Push Pull rolling stock, with perhaps the odd small freight or normal passenger working. Whether this would then be shunt released from the bay or whether it would work straight into the main platform I am unsure, I had not given to much thought on this. 

 

 

 

 

The two upper sidings are just general goods sidings, the siding above the bay will probably have a small goods shed and the most upper road will probably have a few coal staithes and various other unloading facilities. We did hum and har baout trap points when designing, but again, were slightly unsure where these would be needed much like the signalling requirements! The siding next to the station loco release will probably form a cattle dock or somewhere to leave wagons during shunting. The siding to the most bottom right is planned to be a small engine should with a turntable big enough to turn something up the size of a 4-4-0 T3 or T9, and the long siding above it is to store carriages or a part assembled freight train. I hope this perhaps helps and could shed some more light on the signalling required and which sidings could just be operated by ground levers.

 

I like your idea with the advanced started and outer home, this could slim line the operation of the layout and something that we have talked about in the past.

 

And thank you for your comments regarding the curves and design of the layout - Again, carriage sidings is something that was talked about but with the addition of the long head shunt and turntable feared it would make the layout feel cramped and perhaps little is less?

 

 

Thank you for them pictures, I've saved a copy for personal use and sure they will come in very useful when finalising the signalling.

 

 

1. I should of mentioned that, the pre-grouping will be based on the LSWR.

2. Thank you for that piece of information.

 

Again, thanks for all your comments and look forward to any additional pointers.

 

I can't think of any other location on the LSWR where a terminus station is also the junction for a branch.

[RailWest]

I can't think of any other location on the LSWR where a terminus station is also the junction for a branch.

A bit of a 'cheat' perhaps :-), but Bournemouth West might qualify, although admittedly the actual junction and its signalling were away from the station.

 

>>>Depending on what sort of scenic break you are planning, an outer home could also be placed there so that the fiddleyard operative can indicate when a train is ready to depart....

 

I don't really understand that comment.  Any Outer Home would be worked by the signal-box at the terminus, so the terminus operator would need to know that the train was ready to arrive before he could lower that signal. Surely better to provide at least a rudimentary form of 'block working' and have the fiddle yard operator 'offer' the train to the terminus?

 

You definitely need a trap-point where the two sidings at the top converge onto the bay platform road. Fortunately on the bottom half of the plan the traps come 'built in' with the design.

 

The rest of it needs some thought, but sadly at the moment my broadband is on the blink owing to a faulty BT line, so I'm just writing short messages whenever I get the chance!

[josh993]

Taking everyone's comments into consideration and to perhaps give something for others to work or comment on, I have had a go at adding signalling to the original plan.

 

This is only a first, rough attempt, and appreciate it doesn't include an outer home or Outer Starter/Section Signal on the main branch. 

 

I have designed the Starting Signal on those based at Exmouth, but have also seen a different arrangement at Halwill Junction, where both platforms have there own bracket signal with two arms - Essentially the same as Exmouth but split into two. 

 

My biggest concern is the Home signal and also the shunting signals or subsidiary signal arms required on this and the starter signal.

 

Thanks again in Advance

[RailWest]

Assuming Advanced Starting signals on both the Main and Branch lines, then the shunt discs on the 4-doll bracket serve no purpose.

 

Assuming an SR replacement of the L&SWR originals, then the shunt discs at each end of the run-round loop would be the 'yellow' miniature-arm variety.

 

On the 4-doll bracket, reading from L to the R the dolls should be low, high, low, high.

 

In haste, before my broadband collapses again...!

[josh993]

Thanks for the reply again Chris

So do you think the home signal the correct arrangement?

[RailWest]

So do you think the home signal the correct arrangement?

It all depends.......when you assume the signalling was installed originally, whether it has been upgraded at any time etc....

 

There are 4 possible routes from the main line Home, from L to R :- run-round loop, main platform, bay platform, sidings. An early installation might have had running arms for all four, although running straight into the sidings really would be impractical as you could not run-round a train then to shunt. The bracket as shown with 2-dolls is fine for the two platform lines. You might perhaps add a third arm on the L for the run-round loop, this being a ringed arm on a lower doll, and move the shunt disc to the RH side of the main post for moves into the sidings. Earlier L&SWR signalling would have had a 'one disc for each route' policy with shunt discs, but the SR moved towards 'one disc for several routes', so the signal as drawn with 2-dolls + 1 disc is OK - but....they might have stuck with two discs, one each side of the post, the LH one for the loop and the RH one for the sidings.

[Tavy Man]

Thanks for all your replies - I've tried to reply to everyone's comments

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your feedback for the starting arms, out of interest do you know any other locations other than Exmouth that had similar signalling or would show these style signals?

 

The branch will disappear not to far past the point work, hence the thought process of not needing or trying to cram in a home.

 

The branch will mainly be worked on the basis of Push Pull rolling stock, with perhaps the odd small freight or normal passenger working. Whether this would then be shunt released from the bay or whether it would work straight into the main platform I am unsure, I had not given to much thought on this. 

 

 

 

 

 

The two upper sidings are just general goods sidings, the siding above the bay will probably have a small goods shed and the most upper road will probably have a few coal staithes and various other unloading facilities. We did hum and har baout trap points when designing, but again, were slightly unsure where these would be needed much like the signalling requirements! The siding next to the station loco release will probably form a cattle dock or somewhere to leave wagons during shunting. The siding to the most bottom right is planned to be a small engine should with a turntable big enough to turn something up the size of a 4-4-0 T3 or T9, and the long siding above it is to store carriages or a part assembled freight train. I hope this perhaps helps and could shed some more light on the signalling required and which sidings could just be operated by ground levers.

 

I like your idea with the advanced started and outer home, this could slim line the operation of the layout and something that we have talked about in the past.

 

And thank you for your comments regarding the curves and design of the layout - Again, carriage sidings is something that was talked about but with the addition of the long head shunt and turntable feared it would make the layout feel cramped and perhaps little is less?

 

 

 

Thank you for them pictures, I've saved a copy for personal use and sure they will come in very useful when finalising the signalling.

 

 

 

1. I should of mentioned that, the pre-grouping will be based on the LSWR.

2. Thank you for that piece of information.

 

Again, thanks for all your comments and look forward to any additional pointers.

Apologies but I haven't any photo's to hand but look up Wadebridge. This station had a 4 arm structure for Up trains each platform had access to the North Cornwall line or the line to Bodmin North.

 

Regards

[2ManySpams]

I can't think of any other location on the LSWR where a terminus station is also the junction for a branch.

Bude station, although the 'branch' was a freight only affair to the quay and not much more than a very long siding.

[Echo]

Gosport was a terminus with a branch IIRC

[josh993]

Good Morning All.

 

Sorry to bump this one back up, but my friend is now looking to get the main platform starting signal constructed along with the main home signal.

 

Unfortunately I have lost the most recent drawing for what we think is correct arrangement for these signals but in short.

 

Starter Signal.

As previously drawn above, 4 main arms, 2 for each platform indicating either the branch or main has been set for the train along with two shunting signals. One to facilitate shunting on the branch and the other to facilitate shunting onto the main.

 

Home Signal.

A little different from what was initially suggested above. Still with two main arms one indicating the main platform and the other to indicate the branch platform. In addition to this it was suggested that there should be 2 shunting signals, one to indicate shunting into the main platform (if occupied) or into the loop and another to indicate shunting into the bay platform (if occupied) or into the yard.

 

Although we are confident in the arrangement of the main arms, the concern is more to do with the shunting signals mounted on the same post. Would one shunting signal be enough? He would there be a separate one for the branch and main as described above.

 

Any thoughts on the above would be greatly appreciated before construction begins on the signalling.

Edited November 9, 2018 by josh993

[The Stationmaster]

Good Morning All.

 

Sorry to bump this one back up, but my friend is now looking to get the main platform starting signal constructed along with the main home signal.

 

Unfortunately I have lost the most recent drawing for what we think is correct arrangement for these signals but in short.

 

Starter Signal.

As previously drawn above, 4 main arms, 2 for each platform indicating either the branch or main has been set for the train along with two shunting signals. One to facilitate shunting on the branch and the other to facilitate shunting onto the main.

 

Home Signal.

A little different from what was initially suggested above. Still with two main arms one indicating the main platform and the other to indicate the branch platform. In addition to this it was suggested that there should be 2 shunting signals, one to indicate shunting into the main platform (if occupied) or into the loop and another to indicate shunting into the bay platform (if occupied) or into the yard.

 

Although we are confident in the arrangement of the main arms, the concern is more to do with the shunting signals mounted on the same post. Would one shunting signal be enough? He would there be a separate one for the branch and main as described above.

 

Any thoughts on the above would be greatly appreciated before construction begins on the signalling.

 

You don't need any shunting discs on the platform starting signals, they would serve no purpose whatsoever - see post No.11 (and also note the relative heights of the signal arms mentioned in that post).

 

See also the earlier post (No.13) from 'Railwest' in respect of the shunting discs at the Home Signal - you could either have two or one depending on period modelled. 

[bécasse]

You could reduce the platform starters from a 4-doll bracket to a 2-doll bracket by adding a pair of route indicators. Here is a drawing of a typical SR indictor which I prepared over 50 years ago when the real things were still around.

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by bécasse

[Nearholmer]

I was just going to say that!

 

And, there were other forms of indicator used on the Southern, my favourite being seriously clanky things that used to be at Redhill, giving several routes from the southern end of the two (I think, might have only been one of them) platforms on the Up side. I presume they were used because there were so many routes (at least three, possibly as many as five, I can't remember) that conventional signals would have needed a gantry about twenty yards wide.

 

Route indicators could also be used on Home Signals that gave access to multiple routes, but I think only at the entry to a terminus, where speed would be very controlled, a good example being Ryde Pier, which is in some ways not dissimilar to your case.

 

Discussed in this thread, Post 18 includes a photo of the two at Redhill. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106191-stencil-or-theatre-route-indicator/

Edited November 9, 2018 by Nearholmer

[RailWest]

>>>Route indicators could also be used on Home Signals that gave access to multiple routes, but I think only at the entry to a terminus, where speed would be very controlled, a good example being Ryde Pier, which is in some ways not dissimilar to your case.....

 

There were two at Exmouth, and one was provided in the 1957 resignalling at Weymouth (now relocated to Swanage). IIRC there also used to be one (not sure if the same pattern) in the earlier arrangement at Exmouth Junction on the Up Main Home leading into the up sidings, which would seem to disprove the only-at-termini idea.

[Nearholmer]

I guess the issue was ‘bringing a train under control’. If the sidings were a dead end, then I guess they would hold the signal at danger, then clear it to the sidings only once the train was visibly under very tight control.

 

Put another way, I can’t imagine a RI being acceptable where it would be sighted at full line speed.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Nearholmer