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GWR & LNWR Pre-grouping 4mm locos workbench


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20 minutes ago, Penrhos1920 said:

 

 

You wait.  They become very addictive.  Soon you’ll have one of each class of GWR and LNWR 4-6-0.  By the way, my addiction is GWR wagons, I’m getting close to one of each design!  Well that until you find out that there were 9 varieties of V12 van.


Fortunately the GWR 4-6-0’s were banned from the North to West route. I don’t even know if the LNWR Experiments were allowed but one was involved in the Shrewsbury disaster so that’s my evidence. 
 

So I have no plans for anymore 4-6-0’s (unless it’s a 19” Goods).  But I have a number of other things on my build list. Occupying me at the moment are the following 4-4-0’s: LNWR Precursor, GWR City Gibraltar, GWR City Hobart, GWR Duke Severn. 

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1 hour ago, Battledown said:

 

My addiction is four-coupled locos, but I sometimes wonder if a six-coupled predilection would make life a bit easier.  4-4-0s and, in particular, 0-4-4Ts can be very tricky. 


I am building my 4-4-0’s with a variety of techniques including one with the Lycett -Smith/Sharman method as described in MRJ (126).  I do have a 3521 to build but that is in the 4-4-0 conversion mode not the original 0-4-4T so thankfully no 0-4-4’s. A blog will follow but here's a video of one of the City Chassis which is the same as that used by Lycett-Smith.  The rocking and rolling is due to the Alan Gibson drivers!. 

 

 

Edited by Brassey
MRJ issue number and video added
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1 hour ago, Brassey said:


Fortunately the GWR 4-6-0’s were banned from the North to West route. I don’t even know if the LNWR Experiments were allowed but one was involved in the Shrewsbury disaster so that’s my evidence. 
 

So I have no plans for anymore 4-6-0’s (unless it’s a 19” Goods).  But I have a number of other things on my build list. Occupying me at the moment are the following 4-4-0’s: LNWR Precursor, GWR City Gibraltar, GWR City Hobart, GWR Duke Severn. 

You could add a LNWR Renown 4-4-0 to the list.  A Whale rebuild of the Webb four cylinder Jubilees they were a "smaller" Precursor and were in service until 1931

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4 hours ago, Brassey said:

I am building my 4-4-0’s with a variety of techniques including one with the Lycett -Smith/Sharman method as described in MRJ (126).

That is basically what Martin Finney did with his 4-4-0 kits. Well, those for the LSWR anyway - and also for the M7 0-4-4T and Radial Tank 4-4-2. Compensated drivers and a rigid bogie pivoted on the rear axle with spring load centralling. It works for me anyway.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

You could add a LNWR Renown 4-4-0 to the list.  A Whale rebuild of the Webb four cylinder Jubilees they were a "smaller" Precursor and were in service until 1931

 

Jol, I do have a LRM LNWR Renown, although apart from Renown itself they are a bit late for my period, but it has not got to the top of the list yet!

 

I also have a GWR Bulldog/Bird in the roundtoit pile

 

3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

2930-small.jpg.5b8d696b6096a2951bc35a36a09ccd12.jpg

 

Miss P, Depending on the date, the 4-6-0's were later allowed on the Shrewsbury to Hereford possibly just prior to WW1.  I believe that particular picture might possibly have been taken at Kemps Eye Crossing around July 1914

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15 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Miss P, Depending on the date, the 4-6-0's were later allowed on the Shrewsbury to Hereford possibly post WW1 but I believe that particular picture is between Chester and Shrewsbury i.e. on GWR metals north of Shrewsbury and not on the joint line.  

 

Fair enough.

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For those interested in mixed formations, here's another image of a 4-6-0 possible taken at the same location.  The image came from an acquaintance with the caption ".2941 Easton Court with the 5.25 p.m. Shrewsbury to Bristol Express on 18th July 1914"

 

SHREWSBURY_Image_0003.jpg.a5933e3b790ef0035526c4215e6b63b2.jpg

Edited by Brassey
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2 hours ago, Brassey said:

I believe that particular picture might possibly have been taken at Kemps Eye Crossing around July 1914

 

I think it is considerably later than that. The loco has a post-1914 ejector, a post-1919 steel roof, and a modern lubricator pipe cover. It's not clear whether the bogie brakes are still present. I would say early-1920s.

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1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

I think it is considerably later than that. The loco has a post-1914 ejector, a post-1919 steel roof, and a modern lubricator pipe cover. It's not clear whether the bogie brakes are still present. I would say early-1920s.

 

... and I think one or two of the carriages may be in LMS red.

 

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

Now that one definitely does look 1914-ish.

 

Classic LNWR mix of carriage styles, with a GW clerestory thrown in for good measure!

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In 1912 the formation of the 5.25pm ex Shrewsbury Express was: LNWR Brake Third (X), GW Brake Composite, GW Brake Composite, LNWR Brake Compo, LNWR Brake Van, GW Brake Composite, GW Brake Composite (X), GW Brake Composite, 

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20 hours ago, Brassey said:


I am building my 4-4-0’s with a variety of techniques including one with the Lycett -Smith/Sharman method as described in MRJ (126).  I do have a 3521 to build but that is in the 4-4-0 conversion mode not the original 0-4-4T so thankfully no 0-4-4’s. A blog will follow but here's a video of one of the City Chassis which is the same as that used by Lycett-Smith.  The rocking and rolling is due to the Alan Gibson drivers!. 

 

 

 

Interesting roller, looks like it's been made to match your cassettes?

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19 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

2930-small.jpg.5b8d696b6096a2951bc35a36a09ccd12.jpg


 

what are the apparent structures on the roof of the second carriage?

 

birdcage lookouts?    If so, why two?  And what’s the vehicle?

 

Thx

”Confused of Kent”
 

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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

Interesting roller, looks like it's been made to match your cassettes?

No Mikkel it’s standard DCC Concepts rolling road set to 18.83 gauge track. It also fits on the cassettes which are gauged the same. Comes with spacers for all 4mm gauges. I think I bought extra rollers so that I can test tender locos where the pickups and DCC decoders are in the tender. 

Edited by Brassey
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23 hours ago, Brassey said:


I am building my 4-4-0’s with a variety of techniques including one with the Lycett -Smith/Sharman method as described in MRJ (126).

I find rigid axle compensation unsatisfying: the whole body moves with any shocks. Also, for more than 3 axles, it seems to get unnecessarily complicated. Luckily for me, my chosen prototype only has 6 wheeled locos, but based on what Trevor Nunn has achieved in S with his E10 0-4-4T and Worsdell G16 4-4-0 (with working Joy motion!), then using the bogie as one point of the suspension and twin beams for the drivers either side of the gearbox seems both simple and the most effective solution. (The 0-4-4T has a limited amount of sideplay on the bogie. Can’t recall what the other loco has, but probably the same.)

 

3BFFC103-5583-435B-9A17-4E02D98DCDA7.jpeg.d7f7c0a60a2c5d407f6225986b157898.jpeg

 

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54 minutes ago, Regularity said:

I find rigid axle compensation unsatisfying: the whole body moves with any shocks. Also, for more than 3 axles, it seems to get unnecessarily complicated. Luckily for me, my chosen prototype only has 6 wheeled locos, but based on what Trevor Nunn has achieved in S with his E10 0-4-4T and Worsdell G16 4-4-0 (with working Joy motion!), then using the bogie as one point of the suspension and twin beams for the drivers either side of the gearbox seems both simple and the most effective solution. (The 0-4-4T has a limited amount of sideplay on the bogie. Can’t recall what the other loco has, but probably the same.)

 

3BFFC103-5583-435B-9A17-4E02D98DCDA7.jpeg.d7f7c0a60a2c5d407f6225986b157898.jpeg

 

Thanks. The other 4-4-0’s I am building are Finney kits, for the City and Duke, and I am using a LRM chassis for the Precursor. They all employ the compensation as illustrated above as does the County I have already built.  The Finney City has the inside motion too. 

 

The other City uses the Dapol chassis and is not supplied with beams and I can’t be bothered to work out and make the beams. Also, on the S4Soc forum, there has been much discussion on pulling power of 4-4-0’s and it will be interesting to compare the 2 cities in this respect.  Many claim the Lycett-Smith method pulls best!  It has a lot to do with weight distribution. The other issue is that you can use the tender weight to bare down on the rear if using a fixed rear axle. Otherwise the nose lifts off with a moving axle b

 

Edited by Brassey
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1 hour ago, Brassey said:

It has a lot to do with weight distribution. The other issue is that you can use the tender weight to bare down on the rear if using a fixed rear axle.

A good way to improve adhesion. 
The problem is that in sub-7mm scales, the gearbox can take up most of the firebox and the boiler space above it, whilst at the same time it is the best place to put extra weight.

Tony Miles solved this, of course, by having a fixed pivot (in terms of vertical movement) between loco and tender, with the rear tender axle fixed and the other tender wheels lightly sprung. He also had tender-mounted motors with substantial flywheels, and filled the boiler and firebox with lead! It might be possible to arrange drive from the front axle using an extender to take it back into the firebox, thence upwards with the motor going into the boiler towards the smoke box, but that requires having the boiler/firebox/smoke box as a separate unit to the footplate/cab. Not impossible, and possibly an aid to painting, but it is something which needs planning in advance.

 

As long as the weight distribution has the centre of gravity just behind the leading drivers, then that’s not a major issue. The problem is getting enough weight into the blessed thing in the first place, hence the appeal of the weighted tender. 
 

But using this system of 3-point suspension means half the mass (if evenly distributed) might be on the leading bogie. This is no different to how many model diesels were powered for a long time, and they usually had plenty of power. (And Stan Garlick built his 0-4-4T as effectively a B-2, ie 2 subframes operating as bogies. As with many discussions I have observed on the S4um, the issues were addressed many decades ago in other (fine)scales.

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For further info, the 5.25pm Ex Shrewsbury to Bristol in 1912 (4.30pm ex Crewe) had the following destinations:

 

LNWR Van 3rd (X) Liverpool to Bristol

GW Brake Compo Liverpool to Bristol

GW Brake Compo Manchester to Bristol

LNWR Brake Compo Manchester to Bristol

LNWR Brake Van  Manchester to Bristol

GW Brake Compo (X) Leeds to Bristol

GW Brake Compo Leeds to Cardiff

 

3 of the GW Brake Compos went forward to Plymouth on the 5.06am.  The LNWR Brake Van went forward to Exeter on the 6.55am and the LNWR Brake Compo went on to Taunton on the 6.45pm returning on the 7.07am

 

How they managed to organise this was quite a feat.  To organise this in 4mm is quite a feat too due to the lack of GW Brake Compo kits.

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12 hours ago, Simond said:

what are the apparent structures on the roof of the second carriage?

 

birdcage lookouts?    If so, why two?  And what’s the vehicle?

 

Thx

”Confused of Kent”
 

 

It's a double-ended slip brake composite, 57 ft long, in the "toplight" style of 1913-17, so D240 if 9'0" wide or D239 if 8'6" wide. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages, is oddly silent on the birdcages, moreover his photo of a D240 doesn't appear to show them... 

 

Here's some more, double-ended and single-ended: https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p909960545/h6e6f0655#h6e6f0655

 

Another: https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p990703580/h9346ab9b#h9346ab9b

 

And the glazed end of one: https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p882833506/h4f09edb0#h4f09edb0

Edited by Compound2632
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Stephen

 

thanks for that, never seen such a thing before, and can’t imagine why they needed two on one vehicle.

 

I shall consult further with some friends who are aficionados of the works of Mr Webb and his colleagues.

 

thanks again

Simon

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1 minute ago, Simond said:

can’t imagine why they needed two on one vehicle.

 

There was a slip brake compartment at both ends, which obviously had some utility - no need to turn the vehicle.

 

2 minutes ago, Simond said:

I shall consult further with some friends who are aficionados of the works of Mr Webb and his colleagues.

 

It's well post-Webb.

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