Imaginary Railways

[Traintresta]

I'm currently planning to model an imaginary railway of a slightly different composition to most of the above; the Great North Eastern Railway of 1923.

 

Basically it's the LNER with a few changes because I didn't like a lot of what Edward Thompson did and find it a great shame JF Harrison didn't get his go in the CME's seat.  Plus I don't I don't like the emphasis on London (can you tell I'm a northerner!) and feel the loss of the 'great' from four railways needs to be corrected.

 

I'm also tweaking the nationalisation story by saying it didn't happen on the whole until 1955 with the modernisation plan.  Post-war the BTC was formed to generate railway policy and standards which were implemented by the BRB who were also responsible for the day-to-day running of facilities used jointly by more than one railway company, such as stations and joint lines and also for overseeing the joint railways such as the M&GN, S&DJR, CLC etc...

[RLBH]

The old road route from London to Scotland, some may recall, was via the Great North Road to Scotch Corner, then over Stainmore. There were legacies of this in road planning until relatively recently - the M6 was, at one point, expected to stop in Lancashire, with Anglo-Scottish traffic using the old route.

 

Railways, of course, never did this. But what if they had?

 

To get that to happen, we probably need to make some geographical tweaks. Let's suppose that the really high ground of the Lake District continued further south-east into the Yorkshire Dales. High enough, in fact, to make getting from the Eden Valley to the Lune Valley difficult by road, and virtually impossible by rail. Let's also suppose that Stainmore is a little lower. Not much, just a few hundred feet, but enought to make a difference.

 

In this case, it's unlikely that the people of Penrith and Carlisle would look to Lancaster for commercial purposes. With the Pennines a more tractable barrier than the Howgill Fells,  They would surely look to the east.

 

It is likely, then, that the main line from London to Glasgow would follow the East Coast route as far as Northallerton, then run via Holmedale, following broadly the alignment of the South Durham & Lancashire Union railway to Penrith, then the West Coast route northwards. This would presumably put the Eden Valley and northern Cumbria into the hands of the North Eastern Railway, whilst southern Cumbria and Furness are in the hands of the London & North Western, the two railways likely competing over the Cumberland orefield. I can't imagine that the government would be keen on the North Eastern Railway having a monopoly on Anglo-Scottish traffic, but it's hard to see who else would take responsibility for the line.

 

In time, the London & North Western might well push through a competing line up Longsleddale and under Gatescarth Pass to a junction at Penrith - a higher Shap presumably meaning a tunnel is needed, giving that route no cost advantage over Longsleddale. If the Midland has an appetite for its' own route, and in these circumstances I doubt if they would, then the route through Ingleton and under Shap is probably going to be more cost-effective than going over Ais Gill.

 

What does that mean from a railway development viewpoint? In truth, I'm not quite sure. From a modelling perspective, it could be used to justify all manner of strange goings-on; there would be more traffic on the East Coast, less on the West, different motive power requirements. Maybe the prospective Anglo-Scottish monopoly sees railway nationalisation in the 1850s, though probably not.

[The Johnster]

My contribution would be the Abergavenny and Llandovery Railway, which went bust during construction and was absorbed by the GW after the LNW put in a bid.  This hugs the hillside above the Brecon and Monmouth Canal, and more or less follows the general route of the A40 west of Brecon, where it has it's own station south of the town and the river, since obliterated by the dual carriageway bypass.  Blue route restriction west of Brecon, single track main line laid out for 75mph running with passing loops.  

 

It would have attracted through freight from the Milford Haven direction, fish and later oil, military specials to Crickhowell and Brecon, and possibly a daily through to Paddington from Brecon with a restaurant car, on top of the local traffic.  There may have been a daily through this way from Carmarthen to Snow Hill as well, with a buffet.  Summer Saturdays see excursions from the Midlands via Hereford that are heading for Tenby or Saundersfoot, and there is possibly a daily commuter service to Newport via Pontypool; this would have saved an hour on the schlep over the Brecon and Merthyr.

 

Gradients need to be fairly savage west of Brecon in both directions, and with big trains and blue engines double heading is needed.  There's also a connection to the Brecon and Merthyr for an auto shuttle to Brecon Free Steet, for getting in to town and for connecting to the Mid Wales network.  The rough country west of Brecon is no worse than Torpantau or Cray, and involves less climbing though no easing of the gradient, and I sometimes wonder why this was never built and parts of the insanity that was the Manchester and Milford were.  The drop from Glasfynydd Summit to Llandovery was pretty savage.

 

Probably wouldn't have survived the Beeching era because of operating costs with all that double heading and no money to upgrade for bigger engines, but Swindon Cross Country dmus (class 120) and Hymeks might have put in a showing towards the end.  Had it survived, Hymeks and EE type 3s could have handled the traffic without double heading, but the dmus would have struggled keeping time over Glasfynydd, where the tiny station is used by anglers heading for the reservoir's coarse fishing.  It is said that the signalmen here have to be rotated every few months as the loneliness makes them a bit, um... (this really happened at boxes on the B & M and Neath & Brecon)

 

Suggested layouts could be Crickhowell, with an extended platform for military traffic, Brecon (Cardiff Road), based loosely on Machynlleth with a bay for the auto shuttle, or Glasfynydd, where the scenery lends itself to more landscapy open country and 2mm scale.  Historically notable for a major legal tussle between the LNW and the GW regarding running powers between Llandovery and Llandeilo, during which the LNW banned all GW locos as being out of gauge and, when forced to accept, insisted on providing their own loco crews over this section.  This dispute survives until the grouping, and it is not until then that connections with the Central Wales line are timed to be encouraging.

Edited May 16, 2019 by The Johnster

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, RLBH said:

The old road route from London to Scotland, some may recall, was via the Great North Road to Scotch Corner, then over Stainmore. There were legacies of this in road planning until relatively recently - the M6 was, at one point, expected to stop in Lancashire, with Anglo-Scottish traffic using the old route.

 

 

There is still a legacy of the old route as part of the road leading out of Penrith in the direction of Appleby is "Old London Road", heading along what is now the A66

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, RLBH said:

The old road route from London to Scotland, some may recall, was via the Great North Road to Scotch Corner, then over Stainmore. There were legacies of this in road planning until relatively recently - the M6 was, at one point, expected to stop in Lancashire, with Anglo-Scottish traffic using the old route.

 

 

 

 

As recently as the early 1980s, Western SMT coach services continued this tradition. (May still for all I know).

 

I used these a few times when working in Moffat. I recall Doncaster Bus Station as a particularly bleak place in the early hours when doing the overnight service.

 

On the daytime service, there was a stop at Stamford where we ended up leaving two passengers who did not return until more than 30 minutes after we were due to depart.

 

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I recall Doncaster Bus Station as a particularly bleak place in the early hours when doing the overnight service.

 

Tell me about it !!

 

A regular penance when using the Barton overnight Sunderland - Leicester and return service, for a weekend home from college.

 

I sometimes wondered if it was worth it, whilst trying to keep awake at the steamy, greasy spoon cafe.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Johnster]

You want bleak, try the 1970s Swansea Bus Station, now happily as the snows of yesteryear and not missed.  A warren of concrete tunnels with a permanent cold wind howling through them, poorly lit, with a plethora of shadowed corners hiding who knew what threats, and a general odour of p*ss and chips mixing with the diesel fumes.  Horrible.

[brack]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You want bleak, try the 1970s Swansea Bus Station, now happily as the snows of yesteryear and not missed.  A warren of concrete tunnels with a permanent cold wind howling through them, poorly lit, with a plethora of shadowed corners hiding who knew what threats, and a general odour of p*ss and chips mixing with the diesel fumes.  Horrible.

Isn't that all bus stations everywhere - sounds like the old one at Newcastle in the bowels (at least that's what it felt like) of Eldon square.

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, brack said:

Isn't that all bus stations everywhere - sounds like the old one at Newcastle in the bowels (at least that's what it felt like) of Eldon square.

Not so much the bowels, more the sphincter.. The other bus stations (I think Newcastle had four in the early 1980s) weren't much better.

[Gibbo675]

On 16/05/2019 at 12:11, RLBH said:

The old road route from London to Scotland, some may recall, was via the Great North Road to Scotch Corner, then over Stainmore. There were legacies of this in road planning until relatively recently - the M6 was, at one point, expected to stop in Lancashire, with Anglo-Scottish traffic using the old route.

 

Railways, of course, never did this. But what if they had?

 

To get that to happen, we probably need to make some geographical tweaks. Let's suppose that the really high ground of the Lake District continued further south-east into the Yorkshire Dales. High enough, in fact, to make getting from the Eden Valley to the Lune Valley difficult by road, and virtually impossible by rail. Let's also suppose that Stainmore is a little lower. Not much, just a few hundred feet, but enought to make a difference.

 

In this case, it's unlikely that the people of Penrith and Carlisle would look to Lancaster for commercial purposes. With the Pennines a more tractable barrier than the Howgill Fells,  They would surely look to the east.

 

It is likely, then, that the main line from London to Glasgow would follow the East Coast route as far as Northallerton, then run via Holmedale, following broadly the alignment of the South Durham & Lancashire Union railway to Penrith, then the West Coast route northwards. This would presumably put the Eden Valley and northern Cumbria into the hands of the North Eastern Railway, whilst southern Cumbria and Furness are in the hands of the London & North Western, the two railways likely competing over the Cumberland orefield. I can't imagine that the government would be keen on the North Eastern Railway having a monopoly on Anglo-Scottish traffic, but it's hard to see who else would take responsibility for the line.

 

In time, the London & North Western might well push through a competing line up Longsleddale and under Gatescarth Pass to a junction at Penrith - a higher Shap presumably meaning a tunnel is needed, giving that route no cost advantage over Longsleddale. If the Midland has an appetite for its' own route, and in these circumstances I doubt if they would, then the route through Ingleton and under Shap is probably going to be more cost-effective than going over Ais Gill.

 

What does that mean from a railway development viewpoint? In truth, I'm not quite sure. From a modelling perspective, it could be used to justify all manner of strange goings-on; there would be more traffic on the East Coast, less on the West, different motive power requirements. Maybe the prospective Anglo-Scottish monopoly sees railway nationalisation in the 1850s, though probably not.

Hi There,

 

Funny you mention the route as described in your post, I live in the Eden Valley and just today a leaflet about the proposed dual carriage way improvements for the A66 was put through the letter box. It would seem that the route is a useful one road or rail.

 

Gibbo.

[melmerby]

32 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi There,

 

Funny you mention the route as described in your post, I live in the Eden Valley and just today a leaflet about the proposed dual carriage way improvements for the A66 was put through the letter box. It would seem that the route is a useful one road or rail.

 

Gibbo.

It's the main route used from Teesside, Humberside, East Yorks etc. to the Glasgow Conurbation. The A1 by comparison going via Tyneside/Edinburgh isn't such a good route

Just see how many HGVs make the journey to the M6 from the A66 and return. There always seem to be more HGVs coming that way than from further south on the M6

 

The M6 is relatively quiet from Preston to Penrith HGV wise

 

(I lived in Eden for a while, No buses, No shops, No pub - one did re-open later!)

 

Edited May 17, 2019 by melmerby

[Mark Saunders]

26 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It's the main route used from Teesside, Humberside, East Yorks etc. to the Glasgow Conurbation. The A1 by comparison going via Tyneside/Edinburgh isn't such a good route

Just see how many HGVs make the journey to the M6 from the A66 and return. There always seem to be more HGVs coming that way than from further south on the M6

 

The M6 is relatively quiet from Preston to Penrith HGV wise

 

(I lived in Eden for a while, No buses, No shops, No pub - one did re-open later!)

 

 

The A66 suffers from a severe identity crisis as it is part dual carriageway and part single with the upgrades done rather piecemeal, accidents/crashes are not uncommon. Not helped with the addition of people not realising that the road changes from single to dual, managing to drive the wrong way up the dual section!

[Northmoor]

On 16/05/2019 at 15:11, The Johnster said:

My contribution would be the Abergavenny and Llandovery Railway,

I really like this.  Like you say the gradients towards the West end would have been err, challenging - but then so's Talerddig - but perhaps by building the junction with the LNWR further South in the Towy valley, could allow a steadier loss of height, with probably a minor second station in Llandovery.

If it survived until Beeching - and sadly there wasn't even an attempt at modernising the railways around Brecon - it's entirely possible it could have survived but the Central Wales Line, North of Llandovery, would have been lost instead; that of course was one of the most politically-driven non-closures of all.

[melmerby]

40 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

The A66 suffers from a severe identity crisis as it is part dual carriageway and part single with the upgrades done rather piecemeal, accidents/crashes are not uncommon. Not helped with the addition of people not realising that the road changes from single to dual, managing to drive the wrong way up the dual section!

I saw the aftermath of that horrid accident when an HGV ran down a traveller's caravan near Appleby. Driver and Horse killed and caravan reduced to matchwood. Not pleasant.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

The A66 suffers from a severe identity crisis as it is part dual carriageway and part single with the upgrades done rather piecemeal, accidents/crashes are not uncommon. Not helped with the addition of people not realising that the road changes from single to dual, managing to drive the wrong way up the dual section!

I think the original intention when the A66 west of Penrith was created from the A594 and some other bits of road was to make it all dual from Teesside to W Cumbria, however priorities and cash availabilty changed and only the easiest bits were done. Decline of W Cumbrian industries have also lessened the business case for dualling that end.

They at least did the Greta Gorge bridge as dual carriageway, probably the most expensive structure on that part of the route,  with still single carriageway each side.

Edited May 17, 2019 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I really like this.  Like you say the gradients towards the West end would have been err, challenging - but then so's Talerddig - but perhaps by building the junction with the LNWR further South in the Towy valley, could allow a steadier loss of height, with probably a minor second station in Llandovery.

If it survived until Beeching - and sadly there wasn't even an attempt at modernising the railways around Brecon - it's entirely possible it could have survived but the Central Wales Line, North of Llandovery, would have been lost instead; that of course was one of the most politically-driven non-closures of all.

'But Prime Minister, it runs through five marginal constituencies...' (to really appreciate this you have to have been familiar with Harold Wilson's Secretary Of State For Wales, George Thomas, later Lord Tonypandy, and his particularly whining voice. I used to deliver papers to his mam).

 

A separate GW line between Llandovery and Llandeilo would indeed enable the gradient to be eased, and avoided the issue of running rights and pathing between those places as well, but the second Llandovery station would have been well outside town and up the hill.  Mind you, so would Brecon (Cardiff Road)!  Some gradient easing could be achieved by a tunnel at Glasfynydd as well.  Perhaps the cost of it was why the nascent railway went bust and had to be bailed out by the GW, but it would have made things easier for those dmus!

 

I rather like the thought of a heavily laden up train of oil tanks, double headed by 43xx and banked by a Pantyfynnon pannier all blasting holes in the sky through Halfway, on the climb from Llandovery on it's way to the Midlands, though...

[melmerby]

16 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Not so much the bowels, more the sphincter.. The other bus stations (I think Newcastle had four in the early 1980s) weren't much better.

The old Bull Ring Midland Red bus station in Station Street, Birmingham was 100% grot.

Partly under Queensway and completely enclosed apart from the bus entrance & exits.

It was under lit, and absolutely reeked of diesel fumes, which made your eyes water, whilst slowly asphyxiating you.

The diesel fumes used to seep into the adjacent Bull Ring shopping area making that end even less pleasant that the rest.

Fortunately changing transport authority meant that most of the services which it served were taken over by WMPTE and bit by bit removed elsewhere until it was closed.

Following the Bull Ring redevelopment It's now used as a service area for Debenhams etc.

 

Edited May 18, 2019 by melmerby

[The Johnster]

Most South Wales bus stations seem to be open air affairs, and while not being particularly lovely, are at least better than this Swansea/Doncaster/Bull Ring sort of affair.  So Swansea was a bit of a culture shock in these parts.  Cardiff hasn't got a bus station at all at the present time, the coach services using a car park just outside the city centre and the local buses just circumnavigating it with a variety of on-street stops.  This seems to work reasonably well, but a new coach station is being built, underneath an office block, which does not bode well!  The rest will, apparently, stay out on the streets.

[Northroader]

There used to be a place round the back of New Street station for buses, maybe intended for the overspill from the Bull Ring? Fair play, it did try hard to keep up with the description of the Bull Ring bit given above.

[Catkins]

Going back to imaginary railways, I keep toying with a "light Railway" network to serve the Thetford Forest area, with links to the GE and M&GN.
The initial reasoning would have been to aid the forestery based industry in the area, but there would have been a basic general freight and passenger service - with the increasing military presence in the forest, the line would have been upgraded to cope.
 

I really could do with some serious planning time.

[HonestTom]

For a while now I've been playing with the idea of a fictional railway in the Docklands of London. Basically I'm looking to start a layout revolving around the Port of London Authority railways, but there was no location in the real life port that allowed me to do everything I wanted, so I've invented a couple of fictional locations and a fictional railway to serve them.

 

The divergence point comes several million years ago, when a fragment of an asteroid was knocked out of the Asteroid Belt and made its gradual way to Earth. By the time it struck, it was too small to do any serious damage (and there wasn't much to damage in the first place), but nevertheless it was enough to ensure a slight change in the course of the River Thames, resulting in a new peninsula that doesn't exist in our universe. Fast forward to roughly 2000 years ago, and the Romans built a small harbour here. When the Romans abandoned Britain, the harbour was abandoned, only to be reopened under the Saxons. It is recorded in the Domesday book as "Caldhafen," which can be roughly translated from the Saxon to mean "abandoned harbour." This name would later be corrupted to "Coldhaven," by which name the area is still known today.

 

It was around 1842 that one Joseph Loughty saw an opportunity in Coldhaven. He had a keen interest in the railways, and he had originally had the idea of a railway that would mirror the London and Greenwich on the south side of the river, running from the docks into the City. Unfortunately, the London and Blackwall got there first. Loughty, undeterred, came up with a new plan.

 

There was at that time much talk of expanding the docks. Loughty's idea was this. Coldhaven already had a harbour, but it was underused, being relatively far from the city as compared to the then-current docks. If one could build a direct rail connection from the City to Coldhaven, it could be a very attractive prospect for shipping. Meanwhile, at the other end of the line, Loughty wooed shareholders with the prospect of a grand city centre terminus. Many backers were interested, and somehow Loughty was even able to obtain the support of the L&BR. So it was that the Coldhaven Railway and Harbour Development Company was formed with three aims:

 

1. The construction of a new line into the heart of the Square Mile with the capacity for other companies to run trains.

2. The rebuilding of the existing harbour along with a new, larger basin.

3. The construction of a rail ferry pier.

 

It was perhaps unfortunate that as construction was due to begin, Railway Mania was in decline. Money became harder to obtain and, reluctantly, Loughty was forced to scale his ambitions back. The developments at Coldhaven largely went ahead as planned, albeit the ferry pier was a smaller affair for foot passengers only. The real problem was at the London end - building railways in central London has always been an expensive business, and without significant backing, there was no hope for a large terminus. The best that could be achieved was a smaller station on the appropriately-named Minimus Road. The roads in this part of London were (and still are) ill-suited for heavy traffic, so Minimus Road was never an attractive prospect for goods traffic. The completed railway went by the name of the Central London and Docklands Railway.

 

The CLDR ran from Minimus Road, running alongside the L&BR as far as Blackwall, where it curved off to Coldhaven. In addition to the main line, it owned several short branches on the peninsula, most of which were taken over by the Port of London Authority in 1909. Their uneasy alliance with the L&BR (and successors) continued up until the Grouping, with the L&BR, LBSCR and CLDR joining forces to build Shadwell Junction in 1875. With this connection, the CLDR were able to run services over the East London Railway. It seems that Loughty had the gift of the gab, as the line also enjoyed favourable relations with the District Railway and the London, Tilbury and Southend, running services over both.

 

Oddly enough, though the railway was never rich, it remained (mostly) independent until the Grouping, whereupon it was taken over by the LNER. It did not fare so well under BR, who questioned the necessity of two City termini in fairly close proximity. Inevitably it was Minimus Road that would suffer, with most of the station falling into disuse. The decline of the docks saw most of the old CLDR closed down and in 1983, Minimus Road would follow suit in 1983, disappearing under an office block a few years later.

 

However, the story of the CLDR is not yet over. The Coldhaven Regeneration Project was launched in 2010, and the railway's largely extant trackbed on the peninsula is a key part of this. Approval has been given for the Docklands Light Railway to take it over. Once again, developers have seen potential in Coldhaven, and once more the railway is a key part of the plan. History repeats itself.

[Talltim]

Still pondering a metre/3' guage line on Lanzarote. Trying to work out what you could (hypothetically) dig out of the lava fields that would be worth mining and carrying in hoppers to the coast.

 

[Northroader]

You can build this Coldhaven Railway as long as you don’t knock the Gun Inn down.

[TheQ]

I inherited a model railway built on the island of Tiree, and the two stations on the layout and the layout itself, named after two of the villages on the island. This will continue, However, as I went to school On the Kyle line, I'm modifying it to Highland Railway Practices.

 

My other contribution to fiction is grouping and Nationalisation never happened. Railways struggled on, Majors companies merged or picked off the little ones worth money, others failing as they went along.

By the 1950s. HMG start subsidising lines where there is a need. So Highland railways struggle on. Using steam till it falls apart, dieselisation going on piece meal.

So my layout now called Tiree based in 1963, will have the odd HR Loco with diesels' also in HR green. very like early BR Green with just the logos changed.

 

PS, Tiree did have a railway, all 600ft going down the pier under 1 living horse power.

Edited May 23, 2019 by TheQ

[HonestTom]

43 minutes ago, Northroader said:

You can build this Coldhaven Railway as long as you don’t knock the Gun Inn down.

 

Don't worry, I adhere to the "don't think too hard about this" school of alternate history. Logically, the geography of London should be entirely different in my parallel universe, but somehow most things are exactly as they are in our reality. Aside from the existence of Coldhaven, Minimus Road and the line between them, the only major differences are that the LBSC actually built their planned connection to the L&BR and the East London Railway got taken over by BR instead of London Underground (so Southern locomotives that were never seen in the Docklands in our world often show up at Coldhaven). So the Gun is fine, as is everything else I like in the Docklands.