Littlethorpe Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 44 minutes ago, Roy L S said: This has been quiet for a while... Of the two model wagons Dave has had tooled, we have only seen the Mermaid reach production. This has received a lot of positive comments, and indeed I am very pleased with my four BR black ones, a livery which seem to have sold through pleasingly quickly. For reasons best known to Dave (and it was his business decision to make) he went with the Dutch livery next. With hindsight, the Olive and Indian Red ones may well have sold better, covering as they do the steam/diesel transition and post (at a pinch) and pre-tops blue diesel eras - far more modellers to target than in Dutch alone. Yes, it is possible to repaint a Dutch one into another livery, but achieving the same standard of lettering quite a different matter, coupled to which the retailers do not appear keen to discount them much below £18.50 in spite of them tying up working capital already for a comparatively long period. As the tooling is in place it is a shame that further production runs do not appear possible to sweat these assets more. The Shark, also tooled, has livery samples signed off for at least two (Black and Indian Red) to appears ready to go. Dave is clearly not comfortable proceeding based on take up from retailers and his experience with the Mermaids which is a shame given how much he must have spent already to get this far. A lot of us have said we have committed to order one or several from retailers, but what we do not know is how that translates into total numbers v minimum order quantity from the factory, only Dave will know this (quite rightly). I do wonder though if it might be possible to go with a run of the single most popular livery (based on pre-orders) on the basis that both are transition era models and reasonable to conclude (for the sake of discussion) that a fair proportion who have committed for black ones may switch to Indian Red if only that gets made initially, thus not leaving Dave with the less popular variant in stock and cash tied up in it. Just a thought, as it seems such a shame for Dave to not be able to generate an income from these assets.. Roy Excellent post, I couldn't agree more. I already have the 4 Black Mermaids and would like to purchase one of each of the Indian Red versions plus additional Black livery with BR numbering if ever produced. I have both a black & red Shark on pre-order with Hattons. Let's hope they all appear eventually. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Roy L S said: . As the tooling is in place it is a shame that further production runs do not appear possible to sweat these assets more...... ........... .......Just a thought, as it seems such a shame for Dave to not be able to generate an income from these assets.. Roy But to release income you now need income / Capital. As Dave doesn’t own the factory, he needs to pay for each production run. If the savings account is low on funds and Crowd Funding monies in ring fenced accounts then any re-run of these wagons will be a long wait or need an external partner / retailer to underwrite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, black and decker boy said: But to release income you now need income / Capital. As Dave doesn’t own the factory, he needs to pay for each production run. If the savings account is low on funds and Crowd Funding monies in ring fenced accounts then any re-run of these wagons will be a long wait or need an external partner / retailer to underwrite. Absolutely agreed, Dave would/will have to pay for each run up front. What that means is he will need to be confident that he can release that working capital back to fund other projects as soon as possible and hopefully provide a small margin. I wouldn't speculate whether it is availability of cash or a lack of confidence that he will sell the products to dealers quickly enough to return his capital that is the issue. I was really thinking about ways the risk might be mitigated assuming that risk is the issue, and it seems to me that limiting the livery option to one which might potentially overlap a number of popular modelling eras such that there is a critical mass of buyers may be the way to go. I suspect by way of an example that there will be plenty modelling the period from say 1960 to the late 70s who would be drawn equally to a black or Indian Red Shark, so if one fell away they'd buy the other. Clearly Crowd funding monies are held in a trust situation specifically for a given project, that money is untouchable, but I do think getting a retailer on board (or a benevolent third party) is a very good suggestion given all the work has already been done. Regards Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpgibbons Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I've not seen any indication that DJM is holding customer monies in ringfenced accounts. I'm sure they are capital constrained but I imagine their priority must be to deliver projects that have already taken deposits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 9 hours ago, dpgibbons said: I've not seen any indication that DJM is holding customer monies in ringfenced accounts. I'm sure they are capital constrained but I imagine their priority must be to deliver projects that have already taken deposits. Funds paid in to support any specific crowdfunding project should indeed be used in relation to that specific project only and then only at specific milestones as agreed under the terms of the crowdfunding venture. They most certainly should not be used to cross-finance other crowdfunding projects or indeed support the cashflow of a related model railway business. The funds effectively remain held in trust until milestones are reached and they do not belong to the intermediary. My banking law is very rusty, but I am pretty sure I am right in saying that while it is best practice to hold funds in separate accounts, the trust situation still exists regardless of whether funds are physically held in such a way or not, there is case law relating to this specific point if I recall correctly - if anyone can add to this please do jump in. As to priorities, that is a debatable point. Please correct me if I am wrong, and some may be pretty close, but none of the crowdfunded projects so far in N seem to have reached the threshold numbers wise at which tooling can commence, therefore until they do, each pot of money sits tight and can be used only for agreed work relating to that project like CADs. As far as I can see none of that preliminary work provides Dave with an income, whereas producing models for which he owns the tooling has a better chance of doing so and also bringing something to market sooner to silence at least some of the naysayers. Regards Roy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, Roy L S said: . . . none of the crowdfunded projects so far in N seem to have reached the threshold numbers wise at which tooling can commence, therefore until they do, each pot of money sits tight and can be used only for agreed work relating to that project like CADs. As far as I can see none of that preliminary work provides Dave with an income, whereas producing models for which he owns the tooling has a better chance of doing so and also bringing something to market sooner to silence at least some of the naysayers. Each 'pot of money' for crowdfunded projects probably only contains the deposits for those who have actually paid it. And out of that will have been taken costs for the CAD and development work. Manufacturing models from the tooling produced for his own projects (and we don't know for certain that he has fully paid for it or owns it) will need production costs to undertake and sufficient sales to cover that and provide a return. You don't know that there will be sufficient sales of any particular livery to do that, although Dave will know how many pre-orders he has for each. Presumably none are of high enough volume to make it worthwhile - or at least that was the impression he gave to me when I spoke to him at Warley. G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted March 28, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 28, 2019 Having just read some of the latest N Gauge Society newsletter, I reckon this is soon to be announced as thier next RTR model. Just reading between the lines........ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy L S Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I have read the same somewhat cryptic comments and can see why that conclusion could be reached, but personally I would be very surprised if a RTR Shark turned out to be the next NGS project as it would compete with their own kit which is not something they have shown any desire to do up to now. Happy to be proved wrong though... Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 19 minutes ago, Roy L S said: I have read the same somewhat cryptic comments and can see why that conclusion could be reached, but personally I would be very surprised if a RTR Shark turned out to be the next NGS project as it would compete with their own kit which is not something they have shown any desire to do up to now. Happy to be proved wrong though... Roy They have had two different Seacow etc kits on the go at the same time so I don't see that it is an automatic disqualification. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted March 28, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Hello all, For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has no current plans to produce an RTR Shark ballast plough. There is a kit already in the NGS range. cheers Ben A. (NGS VP) Edited March 29, 2019 by Ben A 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Shropshire Lad Posted March 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 29, 2019 8 hours ago, Ben A said: Hello all, The NGS has no current plans to produce a Shark ballast plough. cheers Ben A. (NGS VP) That's a shame, I was considering renewing my membership for a while there. Cheers Colin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 The NGS does produce a kit of the shark brake van: G 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Shropshire Lad Posted March 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 29, 2019 That looks great Grahame. I don't buy kits anymore because I haven't got the spare time to make them these days. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted March 30, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 30, 2019 As this subject seems to have resurfaced. Is there any news on how these are coming along! To me things seem to have gone awfully quiet... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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