When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[Golden Fleece 30]

Found it, it was RM March '60.  There are photos inside  - but are they going to be copyrighted?

 

RM 1960 TT3.A.jpg

 

In this issue is a notification of the later release of the Triang TT Britannia - and the Lone Star 000 range.  The Next Next Big Thing!

I don't know about the copyright issue, BUT, would that not apply to all the adverts too?

 

I know copyright means you cannot reproduce to sell or make money from it but I don't know about for information only.  A lot of things from various magazines have appeared in these pages and other sites just for show.

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

Copyright is always a thorny legal problem....

 

I would think that in the case of adverts one was merely 'spreading the word' and that no damage was being done to merit legal redress. The photographs might be a different matter.

 

(I'm not  a lawyer, so don't quote me on this. Copyright law also differs from from one country to another.)

 

I think Lone Star 000 failed through its rubber band drive, which gave it a 'bat out of hell' performance. The track didn't help - It looks well under my H0 Liliput Austrian narrow gauge and needing a one foot minimum radius meant it needed much the same size as TT.

[APOLLO]

Here is my 42' parcels van awaiting touch ups to the steps and possibly Tri-ang bogies, I am undecided on that at the moment. This shows the poor roof side that did have a lot of flash to remove.

A BEC cattle van, looks like aluminium wheels that were the rage at one time, They were not successful (especially on locos) so i will swap these for brass/nickel ones.

An unopened Peco wagon kit which came as part of the collection I bought recently, this was one of the unmentioned spares.

What appears to be GEM signals.  Height wise they look a little tall but the arms look correct compared to Dublo ones.

 

Garry

 

Garry if I remember correctly those signals were by S&B, though may have been marketed by GEM. Nice models.

 

Brit15

[Golden Fleece 30]

Garry if I remember correctly those signals were by S&B, though may have been marketed by GEM. Nice models.

 

Brit15

I know very little of S&B, who they are or what they made, but recently there was a TT loco lit, possibly 45xx of theirs on Ebay.  I think there was also a signal but unsure abut that.  There was a GEM signal, offset junction style, that looked similar to mine in a GEM box with proper description so you could be right whoever S&B are.

 

Garry

[Barry O]

Lydney was in a number of Railway Modellers over the years. I operated a cut down part of it a Unity Hall in Wakefield in 1977. Alas it is no more but Alan still has a keen interest in 3mm and he is at our show in Leeds this year with a layout. A new 3mm layout is also in preparation at the Leeds MRS who started off using 2.5mm to the foot many years ago.

 

Something about this should be in RM later this year as part of the Clubs 70th Anniversary.

 

Baz

[Il Grifone]

S & B produced a range of accessories. Their working ground signals were popular (though overscale) and IIRC they did loads for wagons and a working yard crane. They may have been marketed by GEM, but it's a long time ago and I can't remember exactly.

[5050]

S & B produced a range of accessories. Their working ground signals were popular (though overscale) and IIRC they did loads for wagons and a working yard crane. They may have been marketed by GEM, but it's a long time ago and I can't remember exactly.

Plenty of S&B adverts in old mags.  I'll scan some and start a thread.

[Hroth]

Its easy to forget, but the original Minories plan by CJF was designed for TT.

Not quite, I think the first publication of the Minories concept was in the April 1957 Railway Modeller (p92), and in that it was presented in an "axonometric" projection with accompanying scals rules for both TT-3 and OO. There's no preference in the text for either scales, but for what its worth the baseboard lengths are quoted first for OO and then for TT-3.

 

If I were building it then for TT, I'd have stretched to the OO baseboard length and maximised the platform length!

 

Of course, "Minories" is more a frame of mind than a fixed idea, you can go longer, wider, add more platforms, add sidings and stabling for coaches and DMUs, throw out the folding baseboard idea and so on and still have a "Minories" layout!

[PatB]

Not quite, I think the first publication of the Minories concept was in the April 1957 Railway Modeller (p92), and in that it was presented in an "axonometric" projection with accompanying scals rules for both TT-3 and OO. There's no preference in the text for either scales, but for what its worth the baseboard lengths are quoted first for OO and then for TT-3.

 

If I were building it then for TT, I'd have stretched to the OO baseboard length and maximised the platform length!

 

Of course, "Minories" is more a frame of mind than a fixed idea, you can go longer, wider, add more platforms, add sidings and stabling for coaches and DMUs, throw out the folding baseboard idea and so on and still have a "Minories" layout!

 

It is notable though, that both the theme and the trackwork correspond fairly closely with what a modeller of modest ability could be expected to build and stock from the initial TT3 releases from suppliers. Oh yes, and the overall roof design specifically calls for TT rail IIRC.

[Golden Fleece 30]

https://reader.exacteditions.com/issues/50801/page/71

 

A couple of photos which may be of interest.

 

Garry

[Hroth]

It is notable though, that both the theme and the trackwork correspond fairly closely with what a modeller of modest ability could be expected to build and stock from the initial TT3 releases from suppliers. Oh yes, and the overall roof design specifically calls for TT rail IIRC.

Minories is billed as a "Suburban Terminus in 3-D" (a current fad in cinema!) based on the projection used to display the layout and put forward as an alternative to the standard branch line terminus style of layout for beginners and intermediate modellers.  Apart from a couple of mentions of dimensioning, there's no actual statement that it was designed for TT. Because Triang TT was the current new thing, it would be considered appropriate as a small layout suitable for both OO and TT.

 

As for the roof design, it calls for PECO Small Section F.B. rail, also referred to as Conductor Rail, and not specifically as TT rail, though I suppose it was used in the PECO spiked track offering, a review of which, covering OO and TT variants, appeared on page 93. Making that roof might not be a task for a beginner...

 

BTW, what was "Conductor Rail"?  Was it for for a cosmetic outside 3rd rail, or for laying flexible track with a third rail for Hornby Dublo?

[Golden Fleece 30]

I have been playing around with Scarm altering my TT "portable" layout from Type A track to Peco, included are 3D views from it one showing the station entrance and the other from the buffers. It is slightly different as I now have the use of the double slip and crossing but basically a similar design. Once I get the baseboards out then it might have to be slightly modified. Note it is hit and miss on very small sections using the flexible track on the PC in the 3D view but it will be smoother in real life.  The layout is initially going to be Terminus to fiddle yard, the loco depot will be further on on the next two boards before the turntable fiddle yard itself.

 

Garry

[sagaguy]

I know very little of S&B, who they are or what they made, but recently there was a TT loco lit, possibly 45xx of theirs on Ebay.  I think there was also a signal but unsure abut that.  There was a GEM signal, offset junction style, that looked similar to mine in a GEM box with proper description so you could be right whoever S&B are.

 

Garry

S & B products were owned by Rex Stedman who was the owner & founder of the Leeds Model company,later Elemsee products & produced S & B accessories for model railways, a lot of it for TT.The business was sold to Gem model railways in 1958 which is why the signals were originally S & B produts.

 

                         Ray.

Edited July 30, 2017 by sagaguy

[sagaguy]

Minories is billed as a "Suburban Terminus in 3-D" (a current fad in cinema!) based on the projection used to display the layout and put forward as an alternative to the standard branch line terminus style of layout for beginners and intermediate modellers.  Apart from a couple of mentions of dimensioning, there's no actual statement that it was designed for TT. Because Triang TT was the current new thing, it would be considered appropriate as a small layout suitable for both OO and TT.

 

As for the roof design, it calls for PECO Small Section F.B. rail, also referred to as Conductor Rail, and not specifically as TT rail, though I suppose it was used in the PECO spiked track offering, a review of which, covering OO and TT variants, appeared on page 93. Making that roof might not be a task for a beginner...

 

BTW, what was "Conductor Rail"?  Was it for for a cosmetic outside 3rd rail, or for laying flexible track with a third rail for Hornby Dublo?

 In those days,Current collection of model locomotives was based on an outside third rail similar to Southern electric practice.The collectors were wire which protruded from each side of the loco thus collecting current from one side of the track or the other.

 

                                            Ray.

[Golden Fleece 30]

 In those days,Current collection of model locomotives was based on an outside third rail similar to Southern electric practice.The collectors were wire which protruded from each side of the loco thus collecting current from one side of the track or the other.

 

                                            Ray.

Here is my 3-Rail Exley EMU showing the wire pick-up Ray mentions.  It was removed soon after for a standard centre rail pick-up to be fitted.

[5050]

I've found the issue with Grandsmoor Central in it which has the photo in the link above.  It was, for large exhibitions, linked with two other layouts also from Manchester members. Jim Lawton had 'Dryslesthwaite and Wealdsend', Jim Edgar 'Grandsmoor Central' and 'Colyer's Junction, (which I don't have to hand to determine the builder). being the third.  By today's standards they all look rather 'crude' but I imagine that the public got their money's worth at exhibitions with trains running all over the place!

Edited July 30, 2017 by 5050

[5050]

S&B thread as promised above -

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124922-s-b-productions/

[Golden Fleece 30]

I've found the issue with Grandsmoor Central in it which has the photo in the link above. It was, for large exhibitions, linked with two other layouts also from Manchester members. Jim Lawton had 'Dryslesthwaite and Wealdsend', Jim Edgar 'Grandsmoor Central' and 'Colyer's Junction, (which I don't have to hand to determine the builder). being the third. By today's standards they all look rather 'crude' but I imagine that the public got their money's worth at exhibitions with trains running all over the place!

I have found old copies on Ebay of RM with Lydney, Longacre and Gransmoor Central and agreed a good price with Make an Offer so hopefully they will be with me later this week.

 

Garry

[locomad]

I don't know about the copyright issue, BUT, would that not apply to all the adverts too?

 

I know copyright means you cannot reproduce to sell or make money from it but I don't know about for information only.  A lot of things from various magazines have appeared in these pages and other sites just for show.

 

Garry

I've found the copy of the Rhos valley railway, RM March 1960, willing to show the pictures and text of the magazine, but copywrite seems to be an issue. Upon reading the text it seems that the layout was 8ft x 3ft and was carried by George Kellie on his car using a water prove sheet?

 

It also mentions an ITV film crew made a short clip, now I'am sure I've seen this copy somewhere on an archive website but can't remember where.

 

Having been brought up the the Colwyn Bay area i can remember well the GEM workshops in Rhos-on-Sea, and George Mellor himself he was quite a character and well known, in the early 70's it was possible you could just call in and purchase his kits, OOn9 was quite popular then and he made a few to fit on the N guage chassis.

 

Going back to copywrite it's a shame peco don't make digital copies of RM going back over the years it's been discussed on other thread, they is complete set of meccano mags which are very handy, seems there American issues and copyright laws are different in America, did read somewhere you can't enforce copywrite over 50 years in America for books and magazines

[NCB]

Re the 45XX on Ebay, my guess would have been the one from Signal Products. A nice kit. Now offered by the 3mm Society together with a Malcolm Mitchell etched chassis (quite complex, but builds OK); the original had a fairly basic cast chassis block.  Keith Gowan's now retired exhibition layout Helston had three of them. The Society also offers the complete Mitchell 45XX kit; I have one, in the "to build" drawer. When I have time!

[Golden Fleece 30]

Re the 45XX on Ebay, my guess would have been the one from Signal Products. A nice kit. Now offered by the 3mm Society together with a Malcolm Mitchell etched chassis (quite complex, but builds OK); the original had a fairly basic cast chassis block.  Keith Gowan's now retired exhibition layout Helston had three of them. The Society also offers the complete Mitchell 45XX kit; I have one, in the "to build" drawer. When I have time!

Is Signal Products the same as S & B that did the signals etc?

 

Garry

[Il Grifone]

I've found the copy of the Rhos valley railway, RM March 1960, willing to show the pictures and text of the magazine, but copywrite seems to be an issue. Upon reading the text it seems that the layout was 8ft x 3ft and was carried by George Kellie on his car using a water prove sheet?

 

It also mentions an ITV film crew made a short clip, now I'am sure I've seen this copy somewhere on an archive website but can't remember where.

 

Having been brought up the the Colwyn Bay area i can remember well the GEM workshops in Rhos-on-Sea, and George Mellor himself he was quite a character and well known, in the early 70's it was possible you could just call in and purchase his kits, OOn9 was quite popular then and he made a few to fit on the N guage chassis.

 

Going back to copywrite it's a shame peco don't make digital copies of RM going back over the years it's been discussed on other thread, they is complete set of meccano mags which are very handy, seems there American issues and copyright laws are different in America, did read somewhere you can't enforce copywrite over 50 years in America for books and magazines

 

There are a few copies of RM available on an American site.

The Gutenberg project has a collection of old literary works available. They state to check local copyright laws. i believe British law is stricter than American law in some respects, but as I said before I'm not a lawyer. (Wrong career choice cashwise, but I would probably have passed away from sheer boredom years ago....) (No offence intended to lawyers, it's just not my scene!)

Edited July 31, 2017 by Il Grifone

[chrisf]

Is Signal Products the same as S & B that did the signals etc?

 

Garry

 

No.  IIRC it was Alan Searle.

 

Chris

[NCB]

No.  IIRC it was Alan Searle.

 

Chris

Yep, Alan Searle. Moved into O Gauge, currently has a very nice layout Worcester South Quay on the exhibition circuit.

 

A look at the larger scales can sometimes give you some good ideas for quite compact layouts in the smaller scales.

[rodshaw]

The January 1958 Railway Modeller featured another TT-3 layout, the Harlesden and West Dulwich Railway by R. D. Dimmock, with liberal use of Bilteezi buildings. It was described on the front page as 'A fine-scale TT-3 railway'. The track was hand-built and the article says, 'What has been proved...is that all TT wheels (with the exception of Rokal) will work on fine-scale track laid to prototype principles'. There is a diagram showing the standards to use.

 

The same issue announced the release of the Tri-ang TT Windsor Castle, with an ad pricing it at 49/6 for the loco and 6/5 for the tender. According to an inflation calcuator this would be about £62 today for both.

 

June 1962 had a feature on adapting an Airfix breakdown crane for TT.

 

Interesting that the magazine called layouts 'systems' then.