When TT3 was the next Big Thing

[5050]

I was looking through some 1950 and 1951 MRN's last night in our club library and came across an advert for a 'Table Top TT Railway Set' complete with loco, coaches, track etc., all to fit on a 4' x 3' table, in a '51 edition.  A couple of months later another advert was for Rokal trains in TT - which stay on the track even at full speed.  Being of a 'foreign'ish' outline (the illustration is rather vague of a semi-streamlined 0-4-0 type loco) then it probably didn't catch the imagination of the 'serious' modeller of those days.

 

I'll get the volumes next week and do some more scanning.

[Dava]

The wheel tread width and flange depth on Rokal trains were so coarse that they made Triang look like fine scale for the time -thats why they stayed on the track.

 

Dava

[Golden Fleece 30]

The January 1958 Railway Modeller featured another TT-3 layout, the Harlesden and West Dulwich Railway by R. D. Dimmock, with liberal use of Bilteezi buildings. It was described on the front page as 'A fine-scale TT-3 railway'. The track was hand-built and the article says, 'What has been proved...is that all TT wheels (with the exception of Rokal) will work on fine-scale track laid to prototype principles'. There is a diagram showing the standards to use.

 

The same issue announced the release of the Tri-ang TT Windsor Castle, with an ad pricing it at 49/6 for the loco and 6/5 for the tender. According to an inflation calcuator this would be about £62 today for both.

 

June 1962 had a feature on adapting an Airfix breakdown crane for TT.

 

Interesting that the magazine called layouts 'systems' then.

I now have the magazine and the kit so sometime hopefully a 3mm breakdown crane will appear.  What is interesting is that metal wheels are supplied with the kit, although 00 12mm, I guess I will change for 10.5mm ones.  Anyone else done this conversion?

 

Garry

Edited August 9, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[sagaguy]

These Railway modellers are worth downloading,it`s a pity that there are so few of them but at least they bring back memories from my late teen years.

 

 

 

                     https://archive.org/details/railwaymodeller

 

 Ray.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Definitely! I had this book when I was trying to work in TT-3 as a youngster. I got hold of a copy of it a few years ago and it is still very interesting

What I did find frustrating about the handbook back in the early 1960s was the lack of information, particularly a trackplan,about Mike Bryant's own TT-3 layout even though it appeared in several photos in the book. What I didn't know then, and rather wish I had, was that the layout had been the subject of a series of five articles "A Large Quart in a Small Pint Pot" in MRC in 1958. In these he gave blow by blow instructions for building his 4ft x 2ft layout which consisted of an oval with a return loop and a high level terminus. It would have been - unwieldy in 00 but very manageable in TT and had I seen it at the time I think it would probably have suited me rather well. Even for a beginner the articles along with the handbook would have been enough to get a really good start in the hobby.

 

This was Model Railway Constructor Handbook No.1 so did they publish others?

 

As for Minories, though I think Cyril Freezer had been playing around with the plan for a while, he first published it in the April 1957 Railway Modeller specifically to demonstrate the potential of TT-3 scale by fitting a complete double track city terminus into a five foot long folding layout. Though his description didn't actually say that, Minories appeared only a month after RM's coverage of the launch of TT-3. Peco (and Gem) had been working with Rovex to launch their own 12mm gauge trackwork at the same time.

 

Apart from a selection of goods wagons, the first rolling stock offered by Tri-ang was the LMR 0-6-0T "Jinty and a couple of suburban coaches. Main line stock was still a few months away but, if you were prepared to accept the Jinty as representing a suburban passenger tank loco, the operating pattern of Minories did lend itself to using that stock for a far more intensive operation than a typical branch line terminus in the same space. It was also a lot more manageable than the 10ft x 8ft plan based on Bristol Temple Meads that Cyril; Freezer drew up for the launch articles in the March edition. According to these, Sydney Pritchard had been experimenting with TT for some time. The article "TT is Here!", whch I suspect that Pritchard may have had a hand in writing, goes into the same justification for using an oversize scale for the gauge for Briitish rolling stock so familiar from OO "We believe that our more experienced readers are fully aware that it is essential to use wheels with overscale treads and flanges if succesful running is to be achieved."

 

The March 1957 article does also refer to "TT-25" in showing a selection of the American locomotives produced by H.P. Products Inc.The 2.5mm/ft description of the scale would not of course have been used either by all imperial America or all metric Europe and 1/10 inch to the foot or just 1:120 is just as simple (and to be strictly accurate it should be 2.54mm/ft) .

I have now received this book and someone earlier mentioned it described motorising the Kitmaster Royal Scot but it doesn't. It does have drawings and photos of the authors started Parallel Scot but not with any description. What is surprising is that out of the 5 loco drawings 3 were made as whitemetal kits, Scot by GEM, 61xx by K's and 2P by BEC. It also has a drawing in of the 42' bogie parcels van which was made by BEC. It would have been nice to explain how to make and motorise these as the Britannia chassis had not been designed at the time for the Scot, and, nothing was ever made for the Crab. There is also a Nelson EMU drawing but no power source available at the time.

 

Garry

Edited August 10, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Hroth]

These Railway modellers are worth downloading,it`s a pity that there are so few of them but at least they bring back memories from my late teen years.

 

 

 

                     https://archive.org/details/railwaymodeller

 

 Ray.

May 1964 RM

 

CJF coins the term "Modern Image modelling"

 

Eeek!

[detheridge]

I have now received this book and someone earlier mentioned it described motorising the Kitmaster Royal Scot but it doesn't. It does have drawings and photos of the authors started Parallel Scot but not with any description. What is surprising is that out of the 5 loco drawings 3 were made as whitemetal kits, Scot by GEM, 61xx by K's and 2P by BEC. It also has a drawing in of the 42' bogie parcels van which was made by BEC. It would have been nice to explain how to make and motorise these as the Britannia chassis had not been designed at the time for the Scot, and, nothing was ever made for the Crab. There is also a Nelson EMU drawing but no power source available at the time.

 

Garry

 Hi Garry,

 

The info on motorising the Royal Scot is actually in Edward Beal's 'New Developments in Railway Modelling' - the 1962 edition (earlier editions date back to as far as 1947 and include such goodies as making loco bodies from card - even chimneys and domes!). Edward Beal was a master of freelance modelbashing: in early OO days he converted Reipath 0-6-0 tanks to anything from an 0-4-0 to an 0-8-4 Wath banker. With the Royal Scot, you'll find drawings for a 2-6-4T and an 0-8-0 goods engine. I would guess that the 0-8-0 chassis might have been an 0-6-0 chassis suitably extended. As an aside, he proposed a similar approach for the HD N2 in 'Scale Railway Modelling Today' (1939 and 1942). Both books are a great source of inspiration for working with Triang TT, or Hornby Dublo.

 

 

Regards,

David.

Edited August 10, 2017 by detheridge

[detheridge]

Another goodie to look out for is this one: Edward Beal's 'TT gauge stock and trackwork.

This predates the advent of Triang TT (IIRC it dates from the early 1950s) and mentions HP products (U.S.) and Rokal. I'd guess it was (at the time) mainly a theoretical book, but offers lots of ideas.

 

David.

[Il Grifone]

Another goodie to look out for is this one: Edward Beal's 'TT gauge stock and trackwork.

This predates the advent of Triang TT (IIRC it dates from the early 1950s) and mentions HP products (U.S.) and Rokal. I'd guess it was (at the time) mainly a theoretical book, but offers lots of ideas.

 

David.

 

I have some of these but not that one. I was trying to collect them, but haven't seen any for some time. (Including mine - they were put away in the 'safe place'....)

[detheridge]

I have some of these but not that one. I was trying to collect them, but haven't seen any for some time. (Including mine - they were put away in the 'safe place'....)

Try these:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/257-2716385-5763761?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=edward+beal+tt+gauge+stock+and+trackwork

https://www.transportstore.com/Beal-Edward-Edward-Beals-Railway-Modelling-Series-Book-Twelve-Ttgauge-Stock-And-Trackwork-Book-15836-1877.cfm

 

Hope this helps!

 

Regards,

 

David

[detheridge]

Quick update: I've found that Edward Beal's TT gauge West Midland Railway was featured in the July and August 1964 issues of MRN

 

http://www.magazineexchange.co.uk/model-railway-news-magazine-july-1964-issue.html?&cat=5088

 

http://www.magazineexchange.co.uk/model-railway-news-magazine-august-1964-issue.html?&cat=5088

 

There are some tantalising glimpses of stock in the pics there!

 

And there was a series of occasional articles in RM from around 1959 onwards on various models including the Airfix breakdown crane mentioned earlier.

 

Edit: from memory, I believe that the 3mm Society has some of the TT West Midland stock in their heritage collection.

 

David.

Edited August 10, 2017 by detheridge

[Pacific231G]

I have now received this book and someone earlier mentioned it described motorising the Kitmaster Royal Scot but it doesn't. It does have drawings and photos of the authors started Parallel Scot but not with any description. What is surprising is that out of the 5 loco drawings 3 were made as whitemetal kits, Scot by GEM, 61xx by K's and 2P by BEC. It also has a drawing in of the 42' bogie parcels van which was made by BEC. It would have been nice to explain how to make and motorise these as the Britannia chassis had not been designed at the time for the Scot, and, nothing was ever made for the Crab. There is also a Nelson EMU drawing but no power source available at the time.

 

Garry

Though it doesn't have a publication date the book was clearly written very soon after the introduction of TT-3 by Tri-ang in 1957 as the only other track then available was ready made from GEM and as spiked components from Peco both of which launched at the same time as Tri-ang. There is an advert in the book for Welkut (standard and fine scale though I'm not sure what that meant) so that must have launched between writing and publication.

 

At the time of writing the only commercial chassis available was from the 0-6-0T Jinty. I strongly suspect that the 4F shown in Fig. 16 as awaiting detailing was the only other loco that Mike Bryant had by then built and I don't think that when he wrote it any loco kits were yet available. On the back cover of my copy the K's advert has just three wagon kits available and describe their 0-6-0 Pannier Tank as "available shortly" (I had one of those and built it not too succesfully for the Jinty chassis that I still have somewhere). Kitmaster didn't arrive at all until 1959 and I think their TT-3 Royal Scot kit appeared a year or so later.

 

There was a lot of excitement about TT-3 when it was first launched and MRC would have wanted to "catch the tide" and publish the handbook as soon as possible even though very little was yet commercially available.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Though it doesn't have a publication date the book was clearly written very soon after the introduction of TT-3 by Tri-ang in 1957 as the only other track then available was ready made from GEM and as spiked components from Peco both of which launched at the same time as Tri-ang. There is an advert in the book for Welkut (standard and fine scale though I'm not sure what that meant) so that must have launched between writing and publication.

 

At the time of writing the only commercial chassis available was from the 0-6-0T Jinty. I strongly suspect that the 4F shown in Fig. 16 as awaiting detailing was the only other loco that Mike Bryant had by then built and I don't think that when he wrote it any loco kits were yet available. On the back cover of my copy the K's advert has just three wagon kits available and describe their 0-6-0 Pannier Tank as "available shortly" (I had one of those and built it not too succesfully for the Jinty chassis that I still have somewhere). Kitmaster didn't arrive at all until 1959 and I think their TT-3 Royal Scot kit appeared a year or so later.

 

There was a lot of excitement about TT-3 when it was first launched and MRC would have wanted to "catch the tide" and publish the handbook as soon as possible even though very little was yet commercially available.

I guessed the book was very early into Tri-ang's TT days as you say there is only the Jinty a few wagons and Suburban coaches seen although at that stage he did say the coach bogies and wagon chassis's were already available separately. I am not keen on the K's TT loco kits (no wagons to comment on) as to me they were the worst of the 3 main suppliers.  I have one of the 97xx's I built recently from someone else's attempt but don't want another and the 61xx I will sell, one in good condition the other not very good condition.  For the initial release of TT the layout in the book is quite good and the track must have been new on the market too.  He did say that Tri-ang, GEM and Wrenn worked together on track design.

 

Garry

[5050]

 Kitmaster didn't arrive at all until 1959 and I think their TT-3 Royal Scot kit appeared a year or so later.

 

First announced in MRN May 1960 with a follow up in June.

 

 

 

I always wished they had also done the Scot in a 4mm version.  I would probably have saved up to buy one!

[Golden Fleece 30]

These two are rather terrific as well. The Rolling stock in TT3 book gives lots of options for converting stock, while the 1962 edition of 'New Developments' has a whole chapter on TT including conversion of the Kitmaster Royal Scot, and cutting down Bilteezi OO buildings for TT purposes. MRN featured his TT West Midland layout in two editions in 1965.

I have now just received this hardback book so a little bedtime reading tonight.

 

Garry

[locomad]

Found this

[rodshaw]

Looking back with nostalgia to the 50s and 60s is one thing...but the first layout I made, in any scale, in 2000-2001, has a very quaint look to it now and could almost have been made in 1960. Yes, it was 3mm scale and featured a lot of Tri-ang and Bilteezi. It was a bit of a mish-mash and in the last picture you can just see some continental TT interlopers...

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/newsforyou/briargate.htm

[Pacific231G]

I guessed the book was very early into Tri-ang's TT days as you say there is only the Jinty a few wagons and Suburban coaches seen although at that stage he did say the coach bogies and wagon chassis's were already available separately. I am not keen on the K's TT loco kits (no wagons to comment on) as to me they were the worst of the 3 main suppliers.  I have one of the 97xx's I built recently from someone else's attempt but don't want another and the 61xx I will sell, one in good condition the other not very good condition.  For the initial release of TT the layout in the book is quite good and the track must have been new on the market too.  He did say that Tri-ang, GEM and Wrenn worked together on track design.

 

Garry

Hi Garry

I've been going through a bound volume of MRC and Mike Bryant's book (published by MRC) was first advertised in the May 1958 edition, the same month that Wrenn's TT track finally reached the market after a production delay and the month when part 4 (of 5) of his series describing how to build the 4ft x 2ft "Pint Pot" layout also appeared.

In some ways the book was already out of date when it was published as a lot more commercial product had already become available by then including the Tri-ang Castle that had reached the shops in time for Christmas 1957, Welkut track and presumably the long awaited Wrenn track. 

 

What I didn't know until about half an hour ago when I found his article on it in the October 1958 MRC was that Mike Bryant was also instrumental in developing Three Millimetre Scale (using a gauge of 13.5mm) and had been working on that alongside his efforts with TT-3 since at least August 1957 when he wrote an initial article on it in MRC. I'll see if I have that edition. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Golden Fleece 30]

I have just received the MRC March 58 issue talking about his small layout using Tri-ang or as in his case Wrenn/GEM track.

 

There are some interesting snippets in the book and for motorising the Kitmaster Royal Scot he mentions using the Tri-ang Type 2 diesel motor bogie. I don't think I will go down that route though and may use a Tri-ang Castle or M/N chassis depending on wheel spacing to fit the splashers. The M/N is fine as I have spoke overlays for the wheels.

 

In one magazine I read there was an article about converting the Type 2 to all 8 wheel drive from the one motor bogie.

 

I will be staying with 12mm gauge though.

 

Garry

Edited August 11, 2017 by Golden Fleece 30

[Dava]

I motorised a Kitmaster Royal Scot with a Britannia chassis, modified and with rear section removed, motor polepiece reduced in size, using K/m cylinders. It looked and ran well in LMS lined black but I sold it some years ago.

 

Dava

[detheridge]

 

In one magazine I read there was an article about converting the Type 2 to all 8 wheel drive from the one motor bogie.

 

 

 

Garry

Hi Garry, I remember that one as well. IIRC, I think it was achieved by using a coil spring between the bogies wrapped in sellotape (which shows the thinking of the time!) and seemed a bit rough and ready.

Surely a better way would be to use 2 motor bogies?

 

David.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Hi Garry, I remember that one as well. IIRC, I think it was achieved by using a coil spring between the bogies wrapped in sellotape (which shows the thinking of the time!) and seemed a bit rough and ready.

Surely a better way would be to use 2 motor bogies?

 

David.

That's right David, and,

 

1) You are right 2 motor bogies would be the best option, and,

2) These days you would need a second bogie to get the parts.

 

It did seem a little ambitious as such when you also had to get the front bearings from two XT60's as well as worms, shaft (from a different source due to the length required), wheels and axles, then the spring.

 

Garry

[Pacific231G]

 

What I didn't know until about half an hour ago when I found his article on it in the October 1958 MRC was that Mike Bryant was also instrumental in developing Three Millimetre Scale (using a gauge of 13.5mm) and had been working on that alongside his efforts with TT-3 since at least August 1957 when he wrote an initial article on it in MRC. I'll see if I have that edition. 

I've now found my 1957 MRCs and, though in October 1958 Mike Bryant back-referenced August 1957 for his original article, it was actually in the July 1957 edition titled "TM Scale, Here I Come"

Bryant had been experimenting with TT scale (defined by him as 2.5mm/ft  rather than 1:120) on 12mm gauge track for some time. He wasn't alone in being dismayed when Tri-ang foisted 3mm/ft on 12mm gauge on the world but accepted that this was what the trade would follow. He therefore decided to go for 3mm/ft but with a gauge of 13.5mm so effectively following the EM solution to the all too familiar British gauge/scale problem. He ended his article with "Let's have some action on standards from the B.R.M.S.B.before they're too late - they usually are." 

 

In August 1957 the first of Edward Beal's articles on "Modelling in TT gauge"  also appeared in MRC. In his own earlier handbook on TT he'd adopted the scale of (correction) 1/9th inch to the foot on 12mm gauge apparently devised by the Leeds MRS (something that Bryant disparaged in his July article) but concluded that accepting 3mm/ft scale made sense. As it was a slightly larger scale he felt that this slight change of scale wouldn't render his handbook obsolete. These articles ran for four months but though the fourth in Nobember was to be continued it never was- possibly because Mike Bryant's "Pint Pot" articles began in January 1958 with a taster photo in the December 1957 edition and were far more practical. There were no photos of his own work in the "Modelling in TT Gauge" articles and Bryant had already suggested in his TM article that Beal was writing theoretically. This may have been unfair because ISTR that the final iteration of his West Midlands Railway was built in TT-3  

 

Having read the excitement with which the launch of TT-3 in March  1957 was greeted in Railway Modeller (granted that Peco were ready poised to sell 12mm gauge track components) it's odd to find almost no mention of it in MRC and adverts for TT track  and letters to the editor appeared for several months before there was any editorial coverage at all of the new scale. Mike Bryant was offering a scale alternative to TT-3 to readers who, if MRC were their only source of information, would have had no idea what TT-3 even was.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Pacific231G

[Dava]

Information on my collection of 'TT3 as the next big thing' is now posted as below,  for anyone who may be interested.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/125307-whats-in-the-box/

 

Apologies for cross-posting.

 

Dava

[kevinlms]

I've now found my 1957 MRCs and, though in October 1958 Mike Bryant back-referenced August 1957 for his original article, it was actually in the July 1957 edition titled "TM Scale, Here I Come"

Bryant had been experimenting with TT scale (defined by him as 2.5mm/ft  rather than 1:120) on 12mm gauge track for some time. He wasn't alone in being dismayed when Tri-ang foisted 3mm/ft on 12mm gauge on the world but accepted that this was what the trade would follow. He therefore decided to go for 3mm/ft but with a gauge of 13.5mm so effectively following the EM solution to the all too familiar British gauge/scale problem. He ended his article with "Let's have some action on standards from the B.R.M.S.B.before they're too late - they usually are." 

 

In August 1957 the first of Edward Beal's articles on "Modelling in TT gauge"  also appeared in MRC. In his own earlier handbook on TT he'd adopted the scale of 1/19th inch to the foot on 12mm gauge apparently devised by the Leeds MRS (something that Bryant disparaged in his July article) but concluded that accepting 3mm/ft scale made sense. As it was a slightly larger scale he felt that this slight change of scale wouldn't render his handbook obsolete. These articles ran for four months but though the fourth in Nobember was to be continued it never was- possibly because Mike Bryant's "Pint Pot" articles began in January 1958 with a taster photo in the December 1957 edition and were far more practical. There were no photos of his own work in the "Modelling in TT Gauge" articles and Bryant had already suggested in his TM article that Beal was writing theoretically. This may have been unfair because ISTR that the final iteration of his West Midlands Railway was built in TT-3  

 

Having read the excitement with which the launch of TT-3 in March  1957 was greeted in Railway Modeller (granted that Peco were ready poised to sell 12mm gauge track components) it's odd to find almost no mention of it in MRC and adverts for TT track  and letters to the editor appeared for several months before there was any editorial coverage at all of the new scale. Mike Bryant was offering a scale alternative to TT-3 to readers who, if MRC were their only source of information, would have had no idea what TT-3 even was.

 

1/19th inch to the foot scale?  That's a handy system.