Anyone Interested in Ships

[MarkC]

Sadly shipping costs even more than our beloved steam locomotives - a LOT more. Then there's where to keep a ship - wharfage dues are astronomical in many ports, where spare jetty space is at a premium.

 

Even ships nominally saved are not immune to vandalism (TS "Dover" fell victim to either vandals or metal thieves) or a lack of funds to pay their dues (the warships at Birkenhead spring to mind).

 

Keep it running? Then you have fuel bills, insurance, engine maintenance costs, paint, drydocking costs, Life Saving Equipment, Fire Fighting Equipment, Annual Surveys by Class - and if you're carrying passengers then keeping up to date with the latest SOLAS Requirements can be expensive. No 'grandfather rights' on many of those either - it's what kills off many older cruise ships, of course.

 

Yes, some other countries are more proactive in saving ships, but even they have their limits. Many have to be set up on a commercial basis to pay their way.

 

Remember the words of "Why is a ship called 'she'?" - It's not the initial outlay that breaks you; it's the upkeep.

 

Mark

[Florence Locomotive Works]

On 27/05/2020 at 18:35, Bon Accord said:

 

We had an authentic Fort/Ocean/Park type in RAME HEAD, alas she was permitted to go to the breakers and was finally disposed of in 2010. The UK has been notably callous with it's merchant ship history - in stark difference to the likes of the Germans, USA and Nordic countries -  and unfortunately I doubt that'll change.

That is a genuine tragedy. I see the Canadians did the same in 2014 with HMCS Cape Breton, even amid protests. There is always HMS Bullfrog in South Africa even though she’s not exactly a merchant ship, they want a quarter of a million pounds for her on Preston Services.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[Florence Locomotive Works]

19 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Sadly shipping costs even more than our beloved steam locomotives - a LOT more. Then there's where to keep a ship - wharfage dues are astronomical in many ports, where spare jetty space is at a premium.

 

Even ships nominally saved are not immune to vandalism (TS "Dover" fell victim to either vandals or metal thieves) or a lack of funds to pay their dues (the warships at Birkenhead spring to mind).

 

Keep it running? Then you have fuel bills, insurance, engine maintenance costs, paint, drydocking costs, Life Saving Equipment, Fire Fighting Equipment, Annual Surveys by Class - and if you're carrying passengers then keeping up to date with the latest SOLAS Requirements can be expensive. No 'grandfather rights' on many of those either - it's what kills off many older cruise ships, of course.

 

Yes, some other countries are more proactive in saving ships, but even they have their limits. Many have to be set up on a commercial basis to pay their way.

 

Remember the words of "Why is a ship called 'she'?" - It's not the initial outlay that breaks you; it's the upkeep.

 

Mark

I always wondered what the real reason for the naming was. I had forgotten the medium fortune it cost to preserve the comparatively small SS Robin, and that ship was still in existence!

 
I’m in the USA, and we have four preserved merchant vessels, all ex navy. 3 are fully restored and operational, the fourth is a Victory ship (Red Oak Victory) which was undergoing steam testing last time I looked, but the exterior was in quite a state, the paint was beginning to loose its will to live. The interior was fine however, I don’t think the turbine is working yet, but all ancillary machines were, including steering I believe. All the running vessels make their living giving rides to people or I think at least one is owned and funded by the National Park Service, who also own many a preserved battleship. We recently let the last Haskell Class Attack Transport go to the breakers, I think there was a group trying to save her, but failed to get the funds before the deadline, usual thing. So it’s not only the U.K. who has been callous.  New Zealand my other country is even worse, they recently scrapped the floating crane Rapaki, but her boilers and condenser will go to a steam ferry being rebuilt. True she was in quite a chronic condition, but unfortunately the Maritime Museum has been a tad bit underfunded in recent years, so I think it was inevitable. Luckily she has twin in Wellington who is preserved. 
 

 

[Ozexpatriate]

5 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I’m in the USA, and we have four preserved merchant vessels, all ex navy. 3 are fully restored and operational, the fourth is a Victory ship (Red Oak Victory) which was undergoing steam testing last time I looked, but the exterior was in quite a state, the paint was beginning to loose its will to live.

Liberty Ship "SS Jeremiah O'Brien" in San Francisco barely escaped the warehouse fire on Pier 45 last weekend. Press reports claim it was 'saved'.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 hours ago, Ozexpatriate said:

Liberty Ship "SS Jeremiah O'Brien" in San Francisco barely escaped the warehouse fire on Pier 45 last weekend. Press reports claim it was 'saved'.

That would have been quite a loss, glad it escaped. Made a very interesting photo though.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[johnofwessex]

On 28/05/2020 at 00:35, Bon Accord said:

 

We had an authentic Fort/Ocean/Park type in RAME HEAD, alas she was permitted to go to the breakers and was finally disposed of in 2010. The UK has been notably callous with it's merchant ship history - in stark difference to the likes of the Germans, USA and Nordic countries -  and unfortunately I doubt that'll change.

 

Rame Head, takes me back to my CCF days

 

The big problem as with so many things of course is asbestos, and she had plenty of it

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Here’s another nice old survivor, the MV Lydia. Originally the MV Moonta, built in Australia in 1931, she’s now a landlocked casino ship in France, no propellors or engines however, so not likely to be seen floating ever again.

[juggy0_1]

I always read this thread with interest but admit to little knowledge of ships, one thing I've always wondered is do ship actually have sea cocks ?.. I've seen them being opened to scuttle a ship in an old war film, my question is, why would ships have them as their only purpose is to sink them surely ??

Edited May 29, 2020 by juggy0_1

[Hroth]

I'll make an assumption that seacocks were part of the seawater cooling circuit for the steam condensers to feed fresh water back to the boilers.  There would be valves to cut the seawater off for maintenance and if the pipework were removed and the valves opened then the ship would be flooded...

 

I await correction!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

21 hours ago, Hroth said:

I'll make an assumption that seacocks were part of the seawater cooling circuit for the steam condensers to feed fresh water back to the boilers.  There would be valves to cut the seawater off for maintenance and if the pipework were removed and the valves opened then the ship would be flooded...

 

I await correction!

I believe that’s correct, there would be a valve with one side going to a opening on the outside of the hull, the other side was normally a small single cylinder vertical high speed steam engine attached to a centrifugal pump. This apparatus would then pump fresh seawater around the condenser I think.

 

Heres a photo of the type of engine, without the pump.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works
Embarrassing typo

[62613]

1 hour ago, juggy0_1 said:

I always read this thread with interest but admit to little knowledge of ships, one thing I've always wondered is do ship actually have sea cocks ?.. I've seen them being opened to scuttle a ship in an old war film, my question is, why would ships have them as their only purpose is to sink them surely ??

 

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

I'll make an assumption that seacocks were part of the seawater cooling circuit for the steam condensers to feed fresh water back to the boilers.  There would be valves to cut the seawater off for maintenance and if the pipework were removed and the valves opened then the ship would be flooded...

 

I await correction!

Generally correct; on the suction side of the main sea water circulating pump would be a pipe coming from the ship side, with a valve attached, in theory at least, to a branch on the ship's hull. Branched into this was the emergency bilge suction, with a normally closed valve. If you had a serious water incursion into the engine-room the two valves could regulated to keep the level from becoming dangerous, or to allow the water to be cleared. On some ships, these valves could be seriously large; 20",24" or larger pipes weren't uncommon. These valves could take a while to open and/or close if they were manually operated. It was the inability of the crew to open the emergency bilge valve at all, and to close the ship side valve when the main condenser suction pipe burst, that caused the loss of the s.s. British Ambassador in early 1975. She was a fully laden 42 000 ton tanker

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, 62613 said:

 

Generally correct; on the suction side of the main sea water circulating pump would be a pipe coming from the ship side, with a valve attached, in theory at least, to a branch on the ship's hull. Branched into this was the emergency bilge suction, with a normally closed valve. If you had a serious water incursion into the engine-room the two valves could regulated to keep the level from becoming dangerous, or to allow the water to be cleared. On some ships, these valves could be seriously large; 20",24" or larger pipes weren't uncommon. These valves could take a while to open and/or close if they were manually operated. It was the inability of the crew to open the emergency bilge valve at all, and to close the ship side valve when the main condenser suction pipe burst, that caused the loss of the s.s. British Ambassador in early 1975. She was a fully laden 42 000 ton tanker

I’m assuming by the look of the British Ambassador that she was a turbine ship? Would a ship with turbines still retain the same water recirculating efficiency as a reciprocating ship? Or would it obtain more since the turbine is generally more steam-efficient? 

[Hroth]

4 minutes ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I’m assuming by the look of the British Ambassador that she was a turbine ship? Would a ship with turbines still retain the same water recirculating efficiency as a reciprocating ship? Or would it obtain more since the turbine is generally more steam-efficient? 

 

Water recirculating efficiency would, I suppose, depend entirely on the size of the condensers and the capacity of the water pump to push the "cold" sea water through the system.

 

BTW I recall reading that one of the duties of the engine room staff was to check the purity of the condenser output, especially with reference to leakage of the sea water into the fresh water.  The test would be to drop silver nitrate into a sample of the output, any cloudiness (a precipitation of silver chloride) would indicate that sodium chloride (ie sea water) was contaminating the fresh water output of the condenser, which is BAD!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

2 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

Water recirculating efficiency would, I suppose, depend entirely on the size of the condensers and the capacity of the water pump to push the "cold" sea water through the system.

 

BTW I recall reading that one of the duties of the engine room staff was to check the purity of the condenser output, especially with reference to leakage of the sea water into the fresh water.  The test would be to drop silver nitrate into a sample of the output, any cloudiness (a precipitation of silver chloride) would indicate that sodium chloride (ie sea water) was contaminating the fresh water output of the condenser, which is BAD!

Yes that would have been quite detrimental to the boiler. And everything else it touched. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

4 hours ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I believe that’s correct, there would be a valve with one side going to a opening on the outside of the hull, the other side was normally a small single cylinder vertical high speed steam engine attached to a centrifugal pump. This apparatus would then pump fresh seawater around the condenser I think.

 

Heres a photo of the type of engine, without the pump.

 

[peach james]

Ah, now this is MY line of work!

 

EOOW on a Steam Turbine Ship, and I defy even you lot to find someone younger with a ticket...(Byron, Jerry, Steve & Gord are older, though Andry is younger than I am...)

 

Main Circ pumps- on my ship, with 21 000 SHP, we had a 16 000 gpm pump (at about 8' lift) that was the main circ pump.  It had a suction valve for the engine room, and the seabay valves as well.  Neither would be a 1 person open or close- the scoop valve could be closed by air (done at 8 kts, above 8 kts, the speed of the ship drove enough water through the condenser for cooling, below that,  the pump was used)

 

We also had high head (550 igpm) and low head (3600 gpm) cooling pumps for the ancilliary equipment and 'vaps.  Both of them could also take from the space if you had to.  The HH manifold had what could be called a seabay valve...you could have used it to scuttle the ER.  The real answer would have been to close the scoop valve, and open the hatch on the scoop...but that would be a terrifying thing to do.  Easier answer would have been a bosn' with a shaped charge on the bow thruster, on the scoop in the boiler room, and on the condenser in the ER.  There was no real plan to do so though- or at least not one I had ever seen.

 

Though I maintained the vaps at times, I was not an operator- the usual path was outside rounds, inside rounds, vaps, watertender, boiler op, throttle watchkeeper, EOOW.  I never steamed as vaps, because I had my AMOC (Auxilliary Machinery Operators Certificate, or Cert 1, in RCN plarlance) from the TRUMP 280's.  I did outside and then inside rounds in 2002, when we had lots of trainees- at one point we had 22 boiler op trainees on the books, with about 18 on the ship.  We were very heavy on tech skills at that point...

The vaps controls were mine- so the level controls, the temperature controls and the steam pressure were all mine.  We never tried running on extracted steam, because we hardly ever ran anywhere at 100 RPM+ and no drill periods- so the vaps wouldn't get stable before we'd perturb them.  The two french stokers (Pepsi & Steph) could get the vaps to make feed in about 15 min, with a hell of a banging and clanking as they did so, but they'd go clear quick.  Others...other people could take all watch and still be making dom (domestic water, at <2 seconds cloud, and 180F)

Nitrating- yes, the cloud will form.  You use N/50 Silver Nitrate, and put in 3 drops of nitrate into the feed.  2 seconds is a bare minimum for feedwater under normal conditions.  Ideal is 10 seconds (clear), then you take your finger, run it on your brow, and cover the test tube's end.  It should then cloud from the salt...

My ticket is January 2012, and I was due to go back to HMCS Protecteur in May 2014, but the @#$@#$ burned in March, so I went and came home on USNS Salvor with her 1600' aft of us in June/July 2014.  I never used my 3A, not a minute on the ticket !

100_6377 by Peach James, on Flickr

[peach james]

I just saw in the photo- there is a Saber Light hanging behind me, on the soot blower controls (they didn't work...).  That's what we'd have used as the light for the nitrate test.  The "old" standard was one of the 4.5v battle lanterns, in which case cloud free was fairly near an absolute...but the sabre shows WAY more clouds.  We'd also get some really strange clouds- when we left San Diego and I did my flashup for my ticket, I got an orange cloud on the main engine extraction pumps about 45 min before we were supposed to leave...kaos !  The good news is that an orange cloud is NOT salt, but anything indicating a possible problem on the main engine condenser as you are about to draw down vacuum is not to be trifled with...

 

Good news is that we had our EO and far more importantly, the Chief, in the MCR to give an OK to steaming on regardless...

 

If you ever use salt water in the boilers, then you have to enter the order in RED PEN in the log book, and just use one boiler as a pre-boiler, (which is going to soon be singing a modified paul simon song- tubeless, tubeless...), and the other boiler to steam at minimum power to the nearest safe harbour.

 

James

[Florence Locomotive Works]

1 hour ago, peach james said:

Ah, now this is MY line of work!

 

EOOW on a Steam Turbine Ship, and I defy even you lot to find someone younger with a ticket...(Byron, Jerry, Steve & Gord are older, though Andry is younger than I am...)

 

Main Circ pumps- on my ship, with 21 000 SHP, we had a 16 000 gpm pump (at about 8' lift) that was the main circ pump.  It had a suction valve for the engine room, and the seabay valves as well.  Neither would be a 1 person open or close- the scoop valve could be closed by air (done at 8 kts, above 8 kts, the speed of the ship drove enough water through the condenser for cooling, below that,  the pump was used)

 

We also had high head (550 igpm) and low head (3600 gpm) cooling pumps for the ancilliary equipment and 'vaps.  Both of them could also take from the space if you had to.  The HH manifold had what could be called a seabay valve...you could have used it to scuttle the ER.  The real answer would have been to close the scoop valve, and open the hatch on the scoop...but that would be a terrifying thing to do.  Easier answer would have been a bosn' with a shaped charge on the bow thruster, on the scoop in the boiler room, and on the condenser in the ER.  There was no real plan to do so though- or at least not one I had ever seen.

 

Though I maintained the vaps at times, I was not an operator- the usual path was outside rounds, inside rounds, vaps, watertender, boiler op, throttle watchkeeper, EOOW.  I never steamed as vaps, because I had my AMOC (Auxilliary Machinery Operators Certificate, or Cert 1, in RCN plarlance) from the TRUMP 280's.  I did outside and then inside rounds in 2002, when we had lots of trainees- at one point we had 22 boiler op trainees on the books, with about 18 on the ship.  We were very heavy on tech skills at that point...

The vaps controls were mine- so the level controls, the temperature controls and the steam pressure were all mine.  We never tried running on extracted steam, because we hardly ever ran anywhere at 100 RPM+ and no drill periods- so the vaps wouldn't get stable before we'd perturb them.  The two french stokers (Pepsi & Steph) could get the vaps to make feed in about 15 min, with a hell of a banging and clanking as they did so, but they'd go clear quick.  Others...other people could take all watch and still be making dom (domestic water, at <2 seconds cloud, and 180F)

Nitrating- yes, the cloud will form.  You use N/50 Silver Nitrate, and put in 3 drops of nitrate into the feed.  2 seconds is a bare minimum for feedwater under normal conditions.  Ideal is 10 seconds (clear), then you take your finger, run it on your brow, and cover the test tube's end.  It should then cloud from the salt...

My ticket is January 2012, and I was due to go back to HMCS Protecteur in May 2014, but the @#$@#$ burned in March, so I went and came home on USNS Salvor with her 1600' aft of us in June/July 2014.  I never used my 3A, not a minute on the ticket !

100_6377 by Peach James, on Flickr

I certainly don’t know anybody younger than that lad operating such things, and I think I’m the youngest on RMweb! 
 

What you said was very very interesting, at least the parts my brain could wrap itself around, that’s why I like to stick to reciprocating engines, but still preferably on ships with soot blowers. 
 

Edit: What ship was that on?

Edited May 30, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works

[peach james]

1 hour ago, Florence Locomotive Works said:

I certainly don’t know anybody younger than that lad operating such things, and I think I’m the youngest on RMweb! 
 

What you said was very very interesting, at least the parts my brain could wrap itself around, that’s why I like to stick to reciprocating engines, but still preferably on ships with soot blowers. 
 

Edit: What ship was that on?

HMCS Protecteur

 

The last steam in the RCN is the 250 barge, and the 200 barge (IIRC), one is a steam crane, the other is a bilge cleaning/pump out barge.  (250 is the crane).  They are auxilliary fleet here in Esquimalt.  

Most of the kit on PRO would be equally familiar to someone on a recip. steam ship- we "only" had 10 turbines, the rest of the machinery was electric drive.  (vice steam on the Cadilac's/Y-100).  So, no up and downer's, (vertical 1 cylinder fuel pump)  no TBA (1 cylinder feed pump) , no Turbine Driven Forced Air fans (apparently, prone to oil fires...).

 

Steam drove:  Main Engine (21 000 shp, cross compound steam turbine, GE), 2x 1 MW(e) Turbo-Alternators (AEI) , Turbine Driven Forced Lube pump (for the main engine gearbox), 3x feedpumps (Cofflin CG),  3x cargo pumps (Weir made them...).  

The rest of the kit was electric drive, though there had been a steam turbine driven 500 gpm fire pump that was removed in 1984/85. 

 

The "lad" can just about manage the 2" Minnie that I have ( Ididn't make !), but practice is really required.  Video exists of about 3 weeks ago, but it's on facebook, not flickr.

James 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 minutes ago, peach james said:

HMCS Protecteur

 

The last steam in the RCN is the 250 barge, and the 200 barge (IIRC), one is a steam crane, the other is a bilge cleaning/pump out barge.  (250 is the crane).  They are auxilliary fleet here in Esquimalt.  

Most of the kit on PRO would be equally familiar to someone on a recip. steam ship- we "only" had 10 turbines, the rest of the machinery was electric drive.  (vice steam on the Cadilac's/Y-100).  So, no up and downer's, (vertical 1 cylinder fuel pump)  no TBA (1 cylinder feed pump) , no Turbine Driven Forced Air fans (apparently, prone to oil fires...).

 

Steam drove:  Main Engine (21 000 shp, cross compound steam turbine, GE), 2x 1 MW(e) Turbo-Alternators (AEI) , Turbine Driven Forced Lube pump (for the main engine gearbox), 3x feedpumps (Cofflin CG),  3x cargo pumps (Weir made them...).  

The rest of the kit was electric drive, though there had been a steam turbine driven 500 gpm fire pump that was removed in 1984/85. 

 

The "lad" can just about manage the 2" Minnie that I have ( Ididn't make !), but practice is really required.  Video exists of about 3 weeks ago, but it's on facebook, not flickr.

James 

 

Interesting that the fans are prone to oil fires.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Cowl ventilators just fitted onto the S.S. Mahanada (1914). Unfortunately the castings aren’t the greatest ever, but they look good. Covered in more excruciatingly boring detail here, sorry I couldn’t get the link any shorter. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/23712-some-decapitated-cobras-and-a-propeller/

Edited May 31, 2020 by Florence Locomotive Works
Incorrect date, originally said 1918

[johnofwessex]

The late Ian Muir recalls the Second offering to provide 'The sample' the morning after a night ashore

 

I'm not sure what cocktail the chief would have prescribed 

[MarkC]

I've never sailed on a steamship - ie one that uses steam for propulsion - but I have served in 2 Product Tankers which had steam plant bigger than some old time ocean going cargo steamships, for powering the cargo pumps via Stal Laval turbines. Superheated steam, 4 burner front fired Foster Wheeler watertube boiler, big steam sootblowers, the works. Scary stuff when everything running at full power.

 

<Seacocks> - grr...

 

Still on board here - another discharge at Montego Bay today, not that we are allowed even onto the jetty, of course. That last relieving opportunity 'door' I mentioned upthread - barely cracked open now. (Events, dear boy. Events...). At present looking at 10th June departure at the earliest, but only if we're lucky. More news promised latest this coming Wednesday (3rd June).

 

Hey ho.

 

Mark

[David Bell]

Lots of old and to my mind good looking ships on this thread but here is something newer. This is Prince of Wales making its maiden port call at Invergordon

[J. S. Bach]

I have a hard time getting used to a carrier with two islands.