GWR goods brake vans page on gwr.org

[Miss Prism]

I've done a revamp of the gwr.org page on goods brake vans, including updating the list of lot and running numbers (backdated to 1882), included some diagrams and visuals, and done a minor update to the brake vans allocations Word document. Comments, brickbats and corrections welcome.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrakes.html

 

 

[BG John]

Is the one the Kent & East Sussex Railway had an AA16, or is it earlier than 1882, as it has a timber underframe?

https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/images/igallery/resized/1-100/KESR_RS002-17-800-600-80.jpg

 

I'd like to know more about this, and similar vans, as I built a D&S one on a timber underframe as a freelance van, but now I want to turn it into a GWR van, as running in either the late 1880s or in 1905.

[Miss Prism]

That K&ESR van was built between 1877-81. It was the first GWR brake van type to have a roof on the verandah. Over 200 of them were built, some earlier '1874-6' ones being initially without a verandah roof. They would have become part of the AA16 group had they survived long enough. The initial wooden brake blocks were replaced with iron ones (probably early 1880s), but the grease boxes were never updated. They were possibly 10T or even less, so became fairly useless as a 'modern brake van'.

 

The last one went from the GWR in 1922, and I doubt there were many left after 1905.  As you say, they are merely an 'AA16' body on a wooden underframe.

 

I should perhaps have added those 1874-81 lots to the webpage, but I never expected anyone to be interested that far back!

[kandc_au]

 

I should perhaps have added those 1874-81 lots to the webpage, but I never expected anyone to be interested that far back!

 

Murphy says, and all that

 

Khris

[BG John]

That K&ESR van was built between 1877-81. It was the first GWR brake van type to have a roof on the verandah. Over 200 of them were built, some earlier '1874-6' ones being initially without a verandah roof. They would have become part of the AA16 group had they survived long enough. The initial wooden brake blocks were replaced with iron ones (probably early 1880s), but the grease boxes were never updated. They were possibly 10T or even less, so became fairly useless as a 'modern brake van'.

 

The last one went from the GWR in 1922, and I doubt there were many left after 1905.  As you say, they are merely an 'AA16' body on a wooden underframe.

 

I should perhaps have added those 1874-81 lots to the webpage, but I never expected anyone to be interested that far back!

Thanks. Any idea of the number series, or what GWR number the K&ESR one was? I built my D&S kit based on a distant photo of one without veranda roof on the Liskeard & Caradon about 30 years ago, without knowing anything about it, but thinking it might be ex GWR.

 

Of course there are those of us who are interested that far back . Something that I can't get my head round is where this information comes from. All the published books on GWR wagons I'm aware of start when the diagrams were first issued. I come across occasional information like this on earlier wagons, but I've not come across any published sources. It's frustrating when I want a few old wagons that would still have been running in 1905, and also need some for my 1880s mixed gauge layout.

[Miss Prism]

Any idea of the number series, or what GWR number the K&ESR one was? 

 

1874-81 lots and running numbers now added to the gwr.org page. (info taken from the Tourret bible.)  I don't know what the K&ESR one is, nor does the K&ESR website seem to acknowledge its existence. Or maybe it no longer exists?

 

I think Ricey did an ancient one for Tregarrick?

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Btw, on running numbers, despite the heroic efforts of Atkins et al, there are still some gaps in the records, particularly I suspect for AA3 and AA16, which means some of the vehicle diagrams in the depot allocation record can't be identified.

[gwrrob]

I think a lot of people will want to rename/number the new Hornby AA15.

[57xx]

I think a lot of people will want to rename/number the new Hornby AA15.

 

As I have two, that is a must.

[BG John]

1874-81 lots and running numbers now added to the gwr.org page. (info taken from the Tourret bible.)  I don't know what the K&ESR one is, nor does the K&ESR website seem to acknowledge its existence. Or maybe it no longer exists?

Bought 1907, scrapped (or disintegrated!) 1944.

https://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/kesr/summary-of-locomotives-rolling-stock

 

So it may well have still been in use on the GWR in 1905.

[Penrhos1920]

From your page I can't work out why the Hornby van cannot be the last lot of AA15? I found the bit about buffers confusing; did AA15 have self contained or RCH buffers?

 

I would also be interested in a project page for potential conversions of the Hornby van.

[Quarryscapes]

I think a lot of people will want to rename/number the new Hornby AA15.

 

Yep, Very pleased to see Oswestry now has one in the allocation .doc file. 

[hmrspaul]

Thanks. Any idea of the number series, or what GWR number the K&ESR one was? I built my D&S kit based on a distant photo of one without veranda roof on the Liskeard & Caradon about 30 years ago, without knowing anything about it, but thinking it might be ex GWR.

 

Of course there are those of us who are interested that far back . Something that I can't get my head round is where this information comes from. All the published books on GWR wagons I'm aware of start when the diagrams were first issued. I come across occasional information like this on earlier wagons, but I've not come across any published sources. It's frustrating when I want a few old wagons that would still have been running in 1905, and also need some for my 1880s mixed gauge layout.

The Wagon registers for the first 100,000 are available at the NRM. They reused the numbers but the crossed through details of the earlier uses are usually readable. Its a slow process as they'll only let you have a few at a time (they weigh a lot)  and only fetch some more a couple of times a visit. There is a wealth of information, not least on the Welsh inheritance, that isn't in Atkins et al.

 

Paul

I believe after 100000 are at Kew, but I don't know if any old wagons had these high numbers.

[BG John]

The Wagon registers for the first 100,000 are available at the NRM. They reused the numbers but the crossed through details of the earlier uses are usually readable. Its a slow process as they'll only let you have a few at a time (they weigh a lot)  and only fetch some more a couple of times a visit. There is a wealth of information, not least on the Welsh inheritance, that isn't in Atkins et al.

 

Paul

I believe after 100000 are at Kew, but I don't know if any old wagons had these high numbers.

Is anyone planning to produce a book, or any other form of publication?

[Miss Prism]

From your page I can't work out why the Hornby van cannot be the last lot of AA15? I found the bit about buffers confusing; did AA15 have self contained or RCH buffers?

 

First of all, an apology. In respect of buffers, my 'Generally, RCH style prevailed from AA15 onward.' should have read 'Generally, RCH style prevailed from AA19 onward.' Mistake now corrected. (And I think I might be brave enough soon to delete 'Generally'.)

 

The AA15s all appear to have GWR s/c buffers, as per Hornby. The differences are in footboard hangers, axleboxes and spring types.

• Lot 845 not sure, but presumbably same as Lot 853 (of 1919), which had round stanchions for all the footboard hangers (pic in Atkins), and therefore not as Hornby. (The number on Hornby's GW version is taken from Lot 853.)
• Lot 863, also not sure, but is probably still 1919, and presumably still round-stanchioned (because of what Atkins says).
• Lot 888 equates to the Hornby, assuming the number on the Paul Bartlett caption is correct.  Atkins however draws attention to the introduction of angled footboard hangers on "The last two lots ...", i.e. 910 and 932. Therefore Atkins and Bartlett don't correspond.
• Lot 910: is as per Hornby.
• Lot 932: had swing-link hangers and RCH boxes, and therefore not as Hornby:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/svr_enthusiast/4143838126/in/pool-gwr813preservationfund/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/beerdave1745/4968631892

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrakevan/h361af2fe#h1218e915

 

 

I would also be interested in a project page for potential conversions of the Hornby van.

 

AA15 was a long-lived diagram, and a very smart choice of prototype by Hornby. A bit of 0.5mm wire for the footboard hangers will satisfy the pre-1920 25" G W fans, and I guess swing-link 4'6" heavy-spring plus RCH boxes might be available (MJT?) for those who fancy the last lot.

 

The only big 'missing bit' is the dearth of known AA15 allocations in their early years, but I guess Rule number 1 applies, and indeed should apply.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Miss Prism

[gwrrob]

Can I double check here that Hornby have the GW and number placement correct on the R6921 release. I believe some toads had no branding as a wartime precaution but I'm not sure of the number position.

 

[bécasse]

Surely the white roof isn't correct for a wartime "repaint".

[Miss Prism]

I suspect this 1947 pic of 56875 might have been Hornby's inspiration.

 

[bécasse]

10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I suspect this 1947 pic of 56875 might have been Hornby's inspiration.

 

I am sure that you are right - and not a white roof at all, probably a lighter grey than the body (which would have looked like a weathered black) but a very long way from white.

[corneliuslundie]

Another AA16 query. Having just built a kit for one of the the BCR AA16s in 7mm I have found a photo of an AA16 at Abermule being used on the Kerry branch, which is my own prototype (only called Sarn and rerouted!). But this one has double doors in place of the side panels nearest the balcony end. I read that they were rebuilt in this way for use as Road Vans in Cornwall. Any more info? In particular, do I just replace the panel and its cross bracing by double Mink style doors?

Jonathan

[Miss Prism]

I know only of one AA16 road van, and that is 8804. Here is a fuzzy pic of it at a busy St Ives, lettered 'St Ives Branch'. The double van doors seem to be standard Mink size and do not extend the full width of the side panel nearest the verandah.

 

Quite why the St Ives branch felt the need for a road van defeats me - the frequent passenger service had ample parcels and luggage provision.

 

Edit: Number corrected to 8804 for the St Ives van. 8864 was another AA16 Road Van, from a different lot. The bible also mentions 12022, so it seems there were three AA16 Road Vans.

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Miss Prism
image reinstated

[corneliuslundie]

Many thanks. I have remembered where I saw the photo of the Kerry branch train: "Cambrian Railways Album volume 2" by C C Green, page 64. The caption says " . . . and No 12022, an outside framed goods brake of 1886 at Abermule on 7 June 1930. In 1895 No 12022 had been fitted with vacuum piping and brake valve and sliding doors for use as a parcels brake van on the Helston branch", the photo being credited to Ivor Higgon.

I find the "sliding" bit difficult as although the photo is not very clear and the van is seen at an angle behind the loco, there do not seem to be any top and bottom rails for the doors to slide on and the doors look similar to those on the St Ives van you have illustrated. Thoughts before I start a model - a sure way to be told how it should have been?

Jonathan

[Miss Prism]

There were recessed sliding doors (which still looked suitably wooden framed, Mink-style) on Fish Trucks S6 and S8 etc, but they did not appear until c 1912, which postdates your 12022 conversion by a considerable time, so I'm also sceptical about the 12022's 'sliding doors' picture caption. 

 

Here's Cirencester's AA3 Road Van in late days, a different style of course to the AA16 outside frame, but nevertheless a standard set of hinged Mink doors patched in to the side.

 

[corneliuslundie]

Yes that looks much more like the arrangement in the Abermule photo and yours. Thanks. Modelling shall commence shortly.

Jonathan

[MrWolf]

I've long had a fascination for the old GW brake vans, they must have been murder to operate during a hailstorm though. Does anyone know where I might obtain a drawing of the later, AA16 outside framed van with channel section solebars? Twenty odd years ago I built the old D&S kit, but I no longer have it. I was watching one on that auction site the other week and it went for £64.... I can't justify that for an ancient lump of white metal and if I did, no doubt Miss R R Hood would (quite rightly) chase me round the garden with a sword....

 

The smarter option would be to scratch build a body on a modified chassis and roof.