Gibson E4 in 4mm - problems

[Daddyman]

Has anyone built a Gibson E4? I picked one up recently intending to build one of the north-east-based ones for my father. However, there are quite a few things which are posing problems, so I'd be grateful for any thoughts from people who've built one. 

 

1. The cab sides are 5 thou! Who the hell thought that was a good idea? How have any of you got around that? Ditto the cab front. My plan is to back sides and front with 10 thou. I don't mind a bit of hard work, but I do find it odd that I've never seen this mentioned, and wonder if I'm missing something.

 

 

2. I'm not sure which cab front to use for the Darlington Doncaster cab: it seems to me that neither of the two cab fronts has the right roof line shape for the NE cab. In fact, I'd question whether the later cab front roof shape is even right for the GE section - the flat parts at the outer edges of the roof radius, where it dips down to meet the sides, seem too steep. But from what I can see in Yeadon, the Darlington Doncaster cabs had a smooth, constant radius, without this dip down to the sides. I don't suppose anyone knows the radius of the Darlington Doncaster cab roof? The kit says the drawings supplied were supplied by the GE society but they seem wrong on the roof line of the later front, and on how far back the tops of the Darlington Doncaster cab sides extend (they end too short). 

 

3. The cab roof seems too wide - can anyone confirm? I seem to remember something similar with the Gibson J15 - perhaps a knock-on effect of the radius of the roof line on the cab front being wrong? 

 

4. The cast faring for the rear of the tender is too narrow for the tender body. My Gibson J15 has the same issue, albeit in lost wax rather than the white metal of the E4. Again, I find it odd that I've never seen this mentioned. Any thoughts on how to deal with this?

 

 

 

Grateful for any pointers! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Daddyman

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'd suggest getting hold of a copy of the GA for the version of the loco you are building for accurate dimensions which, together with the photos/books you have, should provide the information you seek.

 

Can you split the tender casting longitudinally and widen it. I believe that was something that had to be done with the back section of the whole cast w/m body for M&L LNWR tender bodies to get them to the correct width.

[Daddyman]

Thanks, Jol - I was thinking of something along those lines for the casting. Good to hear others have come to the same conclusion. 

 

Thanks for the GA suggestion, but I'd rather avoid that if possible, if some kind soul on here can help... 

[Gordon A]

Why are you avoiding the GA?

 

Gordon A

[Mark]

5 thou or more commonly 6 thou is not unusual for cab sides and usually no problem whatsoever. By the time it is soldered to the footplate, roof and front it will be quite strong. Also if there is any beading to go around the Windows or rear opening this will provide additional support. Just make sure the sides are absolutely flat before you start assembly

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[Horsetan]

OT, but where is the preserved E4 at the moment?

[Pebbles]

Lynn Brooks prepared a drawing - possibly used as the reference for the Gibson kit - many moons ago, it might be an idea to contact the GERS. One additional small point, the kit lacks the small splashers over the front non-driving wheels.

[Daddyman]

Lynn Brooks prepared a drawing - possibly used as the reference for the Gibson kit - many moons ago, it might be an idea to contact the GERS. One additional small point, the kit lacks the small splashers over the front non-driving wheels.

Thanks - didn't even realise there were any splashers there! 

 

Yes, it's the Lyn Brooks drawing supplied. 

[Flymo748]

Thanks - didn't even realise there were any splashers there! 

 

Yes, it's the Lyn Brooks drawing supplied. 

 

There are also two articles in the British Railway Journal, issues 4 and 9, which describe the classes movements and developments.  There are a fair number of photos accompanying the text.

 

And if you are a member of the GER Society, there is a 16 page article in Great Eastern Journal No.58.

 

Guess who has two Gibson kits in the works queue, when various Y14s and Buckjumpers have progressed through first...

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Daddyman]

There are also two articles in the British Railway Journal, issues 4 and 9, which describe the classes movements and developments.  There are a fair number of photos accompanying the text.

 

And if you are a member of the GER Society, there is a 16 page article in Great Eastern Journal No.58.

 

Guess who has two Gibson kits in the works queue, when various Y14s and Buckjumpers have progressed through first...

 

Cheers

Flymo

Thanks, Paul. I'll see if I can get hold of them. 

 

You didn't make the cabs on the J15 up as 5 thou, did you? I notice that with the E4 a 10 thou backing is supplied for the original-style cab sides but not for the side-window variety. At the moment I'm making replacement cab sides in 10 thou, using the 5 thou supplied in the kit as a template. 

[Flymo748]

Thanks, Paul. I'll see if I can get hold of them. 

 

You didn't make the cabs on the J15 up as 5 thou, did you? I notice that with the E4 a 10 thou backing is supplied for the original-style cab sides but not for the side-window variety. At the moment I'm making replacement cab sides in 10 thou, using the 5 thou supplied in the kit as a template. 

 

I made them up as in the kit.  I'll check when I get home this evening for you and let you know. 

 

This was my first Y14 kit.  I've another two to build and I'll use some of the lessons I've learned from this one.  I'm building it in P4 (I say building, it's finished bar the lining, which I've been putting off for about 18 months now...) so the real glaring error for me is the width of the splashers/seats inside the cab.  They are far too wide, and with a P4 back-to-back can be significantly narrowed.

 

The other major thing applies to the tender chassis.  Although it's not pointed out in the instructions, the wheelbase is assymetrical.  That makes sense as the axle loading is greater from the water space than the coal space.  However the inside (functional) frames and the outside frames fit equally well either way around.  I'd virtually finished the tender when I noticed it by comparing it to the side elevation drawing.  I suspect the E4 tender has the same "feature"...

 

Also, I think the size of the coal space in the tender was too small (narrow?).  There is a reference to it in the Allan Sibley article on the J15 in one of the early MRJs. I used a piercing saw to widen it.

 

These are a couple of pictures so you'll see what I mean about these points.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Daddyman]

I made them up as in the kit.  I'll check when I get home this evening for you and let you know. 

 

This was my first Y14 kit.  I've another two to build and I'll use some of the lessons I've learned from this one.  I'm building it in P4 (I say building, it's finished bar the lining, which I've been putting off for about 18 months now...) so the real glaring error for me is the width of the splashers/seats inside the cab.  They are far too wide, and with a P4 back-to-back can be significantly narrowed.

 

The other major thing applies to the tender chassis.  Although it's not pointed out in the instructions, the wheelbase is assymetrical.  That makes sense as the axle loading is greater from the water space than the coal space.  However the inside (functional) frames and the outside frames fit equally well either way around.  I'd virtually finished the tender when I noticed it by comparing it to the side elevation drawing.  I suspect the E4 tender has the same "feature"...

 

Also, I think the size of the coal space in the tender was too small (narrow?).  There is a reference to it in the Allan Sibley article on the J15 in one of the early MRJs. I used a piercing saw to widen it.

 

These are a couple of pictures so you'll see what I mean about these points.

 

Y14 build 65.JPG

 

Y14 build 64.JPG

 

IMG_7121.JPG

 

IMG_6937.JPG

 

 

Cheers

Flymo

Thanks again, Paul - useful points. 

 

From the looks of it you didn't have to do anything about the width of the cast rear tender flare? 

[Flymo748]

Thanks, Paul. I'll see if I can get hold of them. 

 

You didn't make the cabs on the J15 up as 5 thou, did you? I notice that with the E4 a 10 thou backing is supplied for the original-style cab sides but not for the side-window variety. At the moment I'm making replacement cab sides in 10 thou, using the 5 thou supplied in the kit as a template. 

 

Right, I've now had chance to drag the J15 and E4 kits out of the Big Pile Of Unmade Gibson Kits...

 

The cab sides in my J15 kit are the standard 12 thou / 0.3mm brass.  Both styles of cut-out.  Both of the cab fronts are half etched brass, to give the rivet detail and the spectacle frames.

 

In the E4 kit, they are half-etched, but with full thickness inner sides as backing plates as you describe.  I'll have to see how I get on when I build it.

 

As an aside, I've just measured up and drawn a replacement rear buffer beam for the J15 tender.  I've tacked it onto the side of an etch that I'm sending off in a couple of days, so I'll see how it comes out.  I should have the buffers at the correct centres, and some indication of which way is up...

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Flymo748]

Thanks again, Paul - useful points. 

 

From the looks of it you didn't have to do anything about the width of the cast rear tender flare? 

 

No problems at all with that aspect of the tender kit.

 

I flooded the joints with solder and filed them carefully to look as continuous as I could.

 

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Daddyman]

Thanks again - very useful close-up. 

[david65061]

I just discovered this topic. I built a gibson E4 with Darlington cab about twenty years ago. The cab side sheets were very thin and I managed to get them with I slight bowed and had to fill them with modelling filler to get a completely flat cab side sheet.

I used the cab front forth raised cab but filed off the raised etch which represents the join between the original cab and the extension. The Darlington cabs had new fronts. I do not remember if i also had to reprofile it. Though the cab roof seems to be the correct size.

 

The kit builds up into a nice model. This was the driver for my conversion to EM. I built it in 00 but the distance between the front wheels and the front frame looked daft so I rebuilt it in EM.

 

kind regards

 

David

[Daddyman]

I just discovered this topic. I built a gibson E4 with Darlington cab about twenty years ago. The cab side sheets were very thin and I managed to get them with I slight bowed and had to fill them with modelling filler to get a completely flat cab side sheet.

I used the cab front forth raised cab but filed off the raised etch which represents the join between the original cab and the extension. The Darlington cabs had new fronts. I do not remember if i also had to reprofile it. Though the cab roof seems to be the correct size.

 

The kit builds up into a nice model. This was the driver for my conversion to EM. I built it in 00 but the distance between the front wheels and the front frame looked daft so I rebuilt it in EM.

 

kind regards

 

David

Thanks, David. I think I'm just going to make my own cab sides, which will be a pain, and will push this model down the to-do list. Plus, my father (whom it was intended for) has forgotten about it with all the excitement about the Tennant I'm building for him, so I'm hoping I might actually get away with not having to build the E4... 

[Flymo748]

Right, I've now had chance to drag the J15 and E4 kits out of the Big Pile Of Unmade Gibson Kits...

 

The cab sides in my J15 kit are the standard 12 thou / 0.3mm brass.  Both styles of cut-out.  Both of the cab fronts are half etched brass, to give the rivet detail and the spectacle frames.

 

In the E4 kit, they are half-etched, but with full thickness inner sides as backing plates as you describe.  I'll have to see how I get on when I build it.

 

As an aside, I've just measured up and drawn a replacement rear buffer beam for the J15 tender.  I've tacked it onto the side of an etch that I'm sending off in a couple of days, so I'll see how it comes out.  I should have the buffers at the correct centres, and some indication of which way is up...

 

Cheers

Flymo

 

A while ago I mentioned that I was drawing up and having etched some replacement buffer beams for the Gibson J15 tender. 

 

I've now had the first test etch sheet come back, and tagged on the side are three buffer beams...

 

 

I need one of these for the unmade J15 kit I have.  If anyone else would like one of the other two to replace the buffer beam in the kit, then let me know and I'll pop one in the post to you.

 

There will undoubtedly be a few more available in the future when I have more of the w-iron mounts etched.

 

Cheers

Flymo

[Daddyman]

A further question, if I may: I'd like, for aesthetic reasons, to keep the original cab, which the E4s only lost during their first year in the North East. However, it's not clear if any of them, as well as keeping the original cab, also kept the original cab roof. I'd rather model this low roof if possible.

 

Yeadon says that the roof was raised from 1933, and given that the 6 went to the NE in 1936 and all received works attention in 1935, he states that "presumably" they all had the raised roof before they went. He says that 34 locos received the raised roof. However, 42 survived long enough to be shopped in or after 1933, which suggests 8 running around with the original low cab roof. My question is whether any of those sent to the NE retained the low roof. I've consistently failed to get hold of the BRJ numbers mentioned above; could anyone with access to these, or any other information, help me with this question? 

 

Many thanks! 

[Izzy]

Don't know whether this is of any help, Yeadons might give this info, but RTCS pt4 states the six received their larger side sheets/single window cabs at Doncaster after their transfer to the NE at various times through 1936.

 

7408 - 9/36. 7411 - 5/36. 7416 - 10/36. 7463 - 8/36. 7478 - 7/36. 7496 - 12/36.

 

Sadly, what isn't clear is whether these were further modifications on the newer/higher steel roof or full rebuilds of the original low cab one. However, as the text states in two places they were given new sides sheets and single cab windows in time for the winter of 1936 I would guess they already had the higher steel roofs.

 

Izzy

[Daddyman]

However, as the text states in two places they were given new sides sheets and single cab windows in time for the winter of 1936 I would guess they already had the higher steel roofs.

 

Izzy

Thanks, Izzy, but this is a myth perpetuated by the Gibson kit and the Lynn Brooks drawing: the NE locos had complete new cabs fitted at Doncaster, which bore no resemblance to the modified cabs fitted at Stratford, which were raised by the addition of a filler strip on the cab front and the cab roof had the familiar kinked (rather than smooth, rounded) profile. Doncaster cabs, by contrast, had a whole new front, with a rounded profile and no packing strip (as close examination of Yeadon's photos shows). This much is clear. However, what's not clear, is whether any went straight from early unrebuilt GE cab to rebuilt Doncaster cab. 

 

The Gibson kit only supplies the original GE cab front and the kinked, raised GE cab front; it doesn't contain the smooth, curved Doncaster one. 

 

Thanks anyway, though - much appreciated. 

Edited April 13, 2018 by Daddyman

[Daddyman]

On 13/04/2018 at 07:49, Daddyman said:

A further question, if I may: I'd like, for aesthetic reasons, to keep the original cab, which the E4s only lost during their first year in the North East. However, it's not clear if any of them, as well as keeping the original cab, also kept the original cab roof. I'd rather model this low roof if possible.

 

Yeadon says that the roof was raised from 1933, and given that the 6 went to the NE in 1936 and all received works attention in 1935, he states that "presumably" they all had the raised roof before they went. He says that 34 locos received the raised roof. However, 42 survived long enough to be shopped in or after 1933, which suggests 8 running around with the original low cab roof. My question is whether any of those sent to the NE retained the low roof. I've consistently failed to get hold of the BRJ numbers mentioned above; could anyone with access to these, or any other information, help me with this question? 

 

Many thanks! 

Hello Daddyman, 

Ken Hoole's book "The Stainmore Railway" has a picture on p.51 of 7408 with the original low, wooden-roofed cab at Penrith - so it did happen: at least one ran on NE lines with the unmodified cab.

 

7408 is an odd one to have kept the cab as, according to Yeadon, it had two Generals after the higher, steel-roofed cabs were introduced in 1933. 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Daddyman