Scaleforum 2017 Stoke Mandeville Stadium, Aylesbury - Saturday September 23rd Sunday September 24th

[Porcy Mane]

I can give you some reasons why I and other people from Cardiff don't go anymore.

I can give you dozens of other reasons why you should go. Have you been to many S4um at Aylesbury since it moved? It looks like you're a glass half empty type of bloke.

You seem to like making statements on behalf of "other people" and using the term "I understand" quite a bit. From what you say, it's quite obvious that you don't understand the "Scalefourum show concept" at all.

 

 

 You P4 people are supposed to be the cream of 4mm modelling - you have proclaimed yourselves as such - 

 

I guess I'm less polite than the average society member. Your statement is complete bullsh1t!

Can you give us some examples (Let's say over the last ten years) of these proclamations please?

 

And with your proclamation, perhaps you'd be so kind as to point people in the direction of some of your modelling examples, and pearls of wisdom. Just so that you may be judged in the same way, that you have passed judgment on the exhibitors,demonstrators & organisers of S4um, you understand.

 

P

 

 

[Kelly]

You elected not to go, your loss really. It was a great show (what I saw of it, I was sat demonstrating for most of it or talking to people enquiring about DEMU and talking about the items on display (the 508 cab attracted some fair amount of interest)), with as expected a number of fine layouts on display of various types (in terms of area/region, era etc).

 

On the subject of 'in progress' layouts, these should be encouraged at such a show, as it is good to see things in progress to get inspiration/ideas and exchange ideas with the creators of such layouts.

 

As for 'you P4 people' that seems a bit rude. P4 modellers do so for a variety of reasons (personally I prefer the look of the track and other aspects, as well as the challenge involved in building such). Elitism does no one any good from either side of the equation, so it should be discouraged whereever possible really.

[RichardS]

I have been a member of the Scalefour society now for a year. I decided to join in 2016 and did so at Scaleforum that year. I have yet to find anybody in the society who is elitist - people who aspire to and achieve higher standards of workmanship than I will ever attain, yes, people who are knowledgeable, yes, people who are a bit geeky (compliment) yes, people who are a bit nerdy (insult) not yet, people who are mature and sensible railway modellers, yes, but elitist? No. Undoubtedly there are some who might be so inclined, all societies have them - but as yet they have stayed in their holes when I am about.

 

I saw no bad running at this year's Scaleforum. I saw some layouts in the course of construction. Dewsbury particularly stood out in this respect but what education and information this provided particularly the way the topography was incorporated into the baseboard build. (Oops maybe 'topography' sounds elitist - 'the hilly slopey bits") 

 

At the other extreme was Great Bardfield a mature layout which still captivates me. Imagine my surprise when the owner appraised me that the magazine article I have kept for inspiration appeared in 1995. (22 years ago !)

 

If I'm honest I didn't like the presentation of Brettell Road (sorry guys). For me it was too dark and the LED's in the street lights etc were too bright (layouts always have LEDS too bright) But the idea was novel and no doubt has inspired others to consider 'night running.'

 

The wonderful Clutton was voted best in show - not an award usually given to a malfunctioning layout. 

 

Scaleforum is really for Scalefour Society members to meet together - note the word 'forum.' There's some layouts to admire, learn from, watch, talk about. There's some traders who sense an opportunity to sell some bits to interested  customers.

 

As I understand it because they are nice people the Scalefour members (via their committee) allow non-members to visit their 'forum.' They don't have to. Two benefits seem to arise - one some additional admission fees to help cover the costs and no doubt the traders also sell a bit more stuff as well which makes their attendance more worthwhile. Secondly - non members might be inspired to join the society or at least learn something that will improve their own modelling and increase their enjoyment. All good PR.

 

Not all S4S members visit Scaleforum. For some it's travel distance or location, maybe due to age or health, - but this will be a problem for somebody wherever it is held. Some are lone modellers who just plough their own furrow. And yes, I expect that some cannot afford to. But unless it is held in their own area this will always be a problem for them. It's a shame but this is a real world we live in.

 

Provided the majority of S4S members via their committee are happy with the organisation, financial status and format of Scaleforum it doesn't matter a jot what anybody else thinks. It doesn't matter what the footfall is. It doesn't matter whether the 'gate' increases. The event can run at a loss provided the majority of members are happy for it to do so. After all it's part of a bigger picture and constitutes a service to members who can choose whether or not to avail themselves of it.

 

Personally, and I realise I am very much a 'proby,' I like the hall at Aylesbury. I don't want it any fuller or busier. I like the space and airy feeling. I like not being barged into by 'backpacks', I like being able to walk up to a layout and see it, talk to the operators, the traders etc.  I don't want a more cosy and carpeted venue. It's just my view of course. Make it smaller and I would be less inclined to travel to it. There's also the chance that it would become rather cliquey.

 

Scaleforum is not meant to be like Railex. Railex is a great 'public' exhibition which caters for a wider variety of 'finerscale' railway modelling. Nobody should be above appreciating good model making of any discipline or type (I confess to having some real trouble with fantasy and science fiction modelling which I don't 'get' but I can still admire the skill and innovation applied.)  The comparison probably arises due to them being held at the same venue. (Ergo - the venue must be good eh?) I know "there's no such thing as a coincidence de Nozzo!" but I suspect it is a 'coincidence by design' and if one or t'other was held elsewhere then the comparison would never arise.

 

I'd actually be happy to pay more than the £6 for two days to visit Scaleforum - I'd pay more than £6 for one day actually. And before anybody berates me for being affluent - trust me I'm not - we live on a medium to low company pension (well below 'average earnings.) It's just how people value things. I can pay £5 or more (Southwold £8) to visit a local regional exhibition which I have to say I find increasingly run of the mill and don't actually engage me so much these days. In fact I would say some are rather boring. Oh dear perhaps I'm becoming elit....sorry more discriminating in my older age.

 

Must say I'm really looking forward to Scaleforum 2018!  (and Railex hopefully)

[Captain Kernow]

You P4 people are supposed to be the cream of 4mm modelling - you have proclaimed yourselves as such - but your models often don't live up to the hype.

Well, John_Miles, any further comments from yourself in response to the various posts made since 1552 this afternoon, please?

 

Aylesbury is hard to get to from South Wales, about 3 hours each way

I'd have thought that, with two bridges over the Severn to choose from and a straight run up the M4 to junction 8/9, then a pleasant cross-country run via High Wycombe (some of it also motorway and dual-carriageway), it would be considered a fairly easy journey.

 

It's certainly further for me from South Devon, and even further for those from Cornwall or Scotland, for example, to say nothing of those from overseas who attended.

 

I had a chat with a friend from the Swansea area over the weekend, who had an even longer journey than your three hours.

 

Aylesbury is even somewhat easier to get to by rail these days, now that Chiltern run a service to/from Oxford, although it's admittedly not the best.

 

I'd have thought that the previous venue, Leatherhead, would have been harder to get to for folk from South Wales.

[leopardml2341]

Scaleforum is really for Scalefour Society members to meet together........

 

.... because they are nice people the Scalefour members (via their committee) allow non-members to visit their 'forum.' ......

 

Provided the majority of S4S members via their committee are happy with the organisation, financial status and format of Scaleforum it doesn't matter a jot what anybody else thinks.

 

Oh dear perhaps I'm becoming elit....

I don't think those comments are elitist; divisive, yes, but not in the least elitist (at least according to this definition):

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/elitist?s=t

 

Perhaps it is statements such as 'Scaleforum is really for Scalefour members' and that they 'allow' non members (actually not true since it was stated earlier in this thread that the additional entrance tariff for 'non members' (sic) actually confers upon them membership for the duration of the event) as well as 'it doesn't matter a jot what anybody else thinks' that really do the damage?

Edited September 27, 2017 by leopardml2341

[Kelly]

I don't think those comments are elitist; divisive, yes, but not in the least elitist (at least according to this definition):

 

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/elitist?s=t

 

Perhaps it is statements such as 'Scaleforum is really for Scalefour members' and that they 'allow' non members (actually not true since it was stated earlier in this thread that the additional entrance tariff for 'non members' (sic) actually confers upon them membership for the duration of the event) as well as 'it doesn't matter a jot what anybody else thinks' that really do the damage?

 

The 'confers day membership' is what a lot of society run shows use to allow entry into what otherwise would be a members day.

 

DEMU do this for their Showcase show. As do the EM Gauge Society for their shows. For the Scalefour/EM societies it allows attendees to buy items usually only available to members (as stated above by others). It also has some tax implications for societies iirc as to why it is done this way.

[leopardml2341]

The 'confers day membership' is what a lot of society run shows use to allow entry into what otherwise would be a members day.

 

DEMU do this for their Showcase show. As do the EM Gauge Society for their shows. For the Scalefour/EM societies it allows attendees to buy items usually only available to members (as stated above by others). It also has some tax implications for societies iirc as to why it is done this way.

Agree entirely, and thus there are no such persons as non members if they paid for entry to the event; the quoted term 'allow non members'(sic) is, therefore, factually incorrect.

 

I apologise if, that makes me sound elitist

Edited September 27, 2017 by leopardml2341

[Echo]

Right, so to sum things up....

 

...can we safely say that John Miles has been a fully paid up member of the Scalefour Society - and quite possibly on several occasions?

 

That's real irony!

[Not Jeremy]

Good grief - reading some of  the comments here from folk who didn't attend I'd say the Scalefour Society have pitched it exactly right. I for one truly hope that they can keep future Scalefour clear of the "miserable brigade" as appear to be evidenced on this thread.

 

All I saw over the weekend were happy and friendly faces, a lot of super modelling and lots of useful and interesting things that you could purchase if you wanted to.

 

If people are determined to find fault, criticise and denigrate then they will, it matters not one jot what any organiser of any show does, we are all apparently doomed to endlessly read this sort of rot.

 

And if that makes me "elitist" so be it.

 

Simon

Edited September 27, 2017 by Not Jeremy

[Decapod]

Maybe the number of 'outsiders' is on the up.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Maybe it is; I have no idea of the numbers of 'outsiders', but the number of 'insiders' keeps growing. The upward trend of Membership of the Scalefour Society continues; not at an astonishing rate, but it keeps going up and has been doing so for almost ten years.

 

All the Best

Danny

[Porcy Mane]

The upward trend of Membership of the Scalefour Society continues; not at an astonishing rate, but it keeps going up and has been doing so for almost ten years.

 

I bet they aren't  elitist. Maybe rebels?

 

P

[PenrithBeacon]

I'm concerned that the attendance at Scaleforum declines year on year. I'm also concerned that this decline is occurring in the face of increasing membership of the society. I can remember when the show was rammed, uncomfortably so sometimes.

Something is wrong here and if Scaleforum is to continue then this matter must be attended too.

As to the modelling, everything I saw was of a very high standard no complaints from me there.

But the attendance issues do have to be addressed.

Regards

[chrisf]

I'm concerned that the attendance at Scaleforum declines year on year. I'm also concerned that this decline is occurring in the face of increasing membership of the society. I can remember when the show was rammed, uncomfortably so sometimes.

Something is wrong here and if Scaleforum is to continue then this matter must be attended too.

As to the modelling, everything I saw was of a very high standard no complaints from me there.

But the attendance issues do have to be addressed.

Regards

 

All is now clear.  You're a management consultant, aren't you?

 

Chris

[Petri Sallinen]

Very nice weekend in Aylesbury! Now I have visited five times in Scaleforums. This was not the best ones but nevertheless very enjoyable exhibition, thank you for that. I spent two days in the show and had room in Five Bells Inn in Weston Turville — I think there were some other enthusiasts too  . It was very easy to travel from Helsinki to Aylesbury — the flight from Helsinki to London Heathrow, with train to Paddington Station, with underground to Marylebone and last with train to Aylesbury. The trip took about six hours — not very much considering that I am living in the middle of nowhere

 

Petri Sallinen

Helsinki, Finland

Edited September 28, 2017 by Petri Sallinen

[Re6/6]

 the "miserable brigade" 

   

[Coach bogie]

Maybe it is; I have no idea of the numbers of 'outsiders', but the number of 'insiders' keeps growing. The upward trend of Membership of the Scalefour Society continues; not at an astonishing rate, but it keeps going up and has been doing so for almost ten years.

 

All the Best

Danny

If that is the case the surely attendance would be increasing. Alternatively it is the non members attendance that is in decline.

 

An analysis of members to non members in attendance at the S4 shows would be invaluable in how to address the declining show numbers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Torper]

I'm concerned that the attendance at Scaleforum declines year on year. I'm also concerned that this decline is occurring in the face of increasing membership of the society. I can remember when the show was rammed, uncomfortably so sometimes.

Something is wrong here and if Scaleforum is to continue then this matter must be attended too.

 

I don't entirely disagree with you, but don't think that any changes I personally might like to see would have much if any effect on the general attandance.  Have you any suggestions?  As a S4Soc member I'm not particularly concerned that attendance is declining, if indeed that is the case, but I am disappointed, if only for the sake of those who put on what is clearly an excellent show.  Having said that, I am one of those members who don't go - living half way up Scotland, it's too far and too expensive to make the trip, but I do manage Scalefour North every year.

 

Otherwise, I don't think that falling attendance is anything that the Society can address to any meaningful extent.  I don't think it's anything to do with the show itself, and by and large I don't think it's the venue.  I think it's more down to peoples' increasing reluctance to travel any great distance, especially as they grow older.  While it can still be a pleasure up here, road travel down south appears to be increasingly difficult, unpleasant and stressful.  Public transport can be inconvenient, is expensive (our rail fares are apparently the highest in Europe) and delays and ones fellow passengers don't always make the trip an especially pleasant one.  And of course there's the matter of Austerity - many of us are having to be a lot more careful with our cash than we used to be.

 

One other point.  For me, one of the greatest inducements for going to a show such as Scaleforum is the presence of so many "niche" traders.  In the past, I used to do a lot of shopping with them.. Now, however, many of them have an internet presence and I find that I no longer have to go to a show to buy from them - I can do so from the comfort of my own home via the internet or telephone.

 

DT

Edited September 28, 2017 by Torper

[Jub45565]

If that is the case the surely attendance would be increasing. Alternatively it is the non members attendance that is in decline.

 

An analysis of members to non members in attendance at the S4 shows would be invaluable in how to address the declining show numbers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Lies, damn lies, and statistics!

 

I wouldnt say there is a lot that can be deduced purely by members/non-members headcount.

 

For example - other factors (in no particular order, and in no means a complete list):

- Is the age profile of the society members changing?

- Is the geographical spread of members changing?

- How many of the non-members are members of other societies, or dedicated to modelling in other scales? (scales, not gauges - I think the society has a lot to offer 4mm standard gauge modellers regardless of whether they use P4 standards).

- Is it just a busy weekend for some? There are only 52 in a year so something will clash...

 

Overall headcount is not an issue, within reasonable bounds. As others have said, S4um is not competing with Railex. John Miles has obviously ruffled a few feathers, but he is entitled to his opinion which just shows that S4um is not for him. I personally view layouts at exhibitions in the same way as the demonstrators - all there to be watched, interrogated :-) and learned from and inspired by. Seeing them during construction is definitely beneficial, especially with the likes of Dewsbury GN.

[10800]

If that is the case the surely attendance would be increasing. Alternatively it is the non members attendance that is in decline.

 

An analysis of members to non members in attendance at the S4 shows would be invaluable in how to address the declining show numbers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

It's never as simplistic as that. Lots of factors involved, some of which have been aired in this thread (and the one in 2016, 2015, 2014 ...).

 

1) Just because the overall membership is increasing doesn't mean they all can/will come to Scaleforum. 

 

2) The Railex effect. 'Why should I go to two shows a year at the same venue'? I don't get that one myself, but there you are. 

 

3) For some reason, Leatherhead apparently attracted more spontaneous local family 'let's go to the model show' attendance.

 

The Scaleforum management team and the Scalefour Society committee are fully aware of all these factors and more, and I have every confidence that they (with input from the membership as appropriate) will come to a sensible decision, if indeed one is needed at the moment.

 

All that said, I went as always with a large contingent of our area group from Devon, and as always had a great time.

Edited September 28, 2017 by 10800

[5050]

There were several alternative events on over the weekend and had I not been exhibiting I would more than likely have been going to one.  Halifax Exhibition, Foxfield Railway Gala, Barrowhill Opening all spring to mind without looking at any lists.  For me, all a lot nearer than Aylesbury I'm afraid.  September is a very busy month railwaywise these days.

[Pete the Elaner]

I can give you some reasons why I and other people from Cardiff don't go anymore. Too many half built layouts, some of which are not even operational. I understand that things were better this year but I didn't go because it has been poor in the past.. Too many layouts which don't run well. You P4 people are supposed to be the cream of 4mm modelling - you have proclaimed yourselves as such - but your models often don't live up to the hype. Aylesbury is hard to get to from South Wales, about 3 hours each way. The traders are good and that is an attraction but if I had to choose I would always pick RailEx. Again good traders and layouts that run and have things like scenery.

There is no pleasing some people.

Your comments about the layouts were a pre-judgment & do not reflect what was actually at the event.

 

As for location, if you don't like it, maybe you should move? I did exactly that about 15 years ago. I was living near the coast but moved so I get to more places more easily.

Aylesbury sits between the most densely populated part of the country & the larger part of it, having good road & rail links. There is no such thing as the perfect venue, but this is one of the better ones.

NEC is more central but this draws complaints over pricing & poor lighting.

 

I enjoyed the show. The layouts were good & it was nice to have such a concentrated selection of specialist traders for parts you can't easily get anywhere.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Well, John_Miles, any further comments from yourself in response to the various posts made since 1552 this afternoon, please?

 

I'd have thought that, with two bridges over the Severn to choose from and a straight run up the M4 to junction 8/9, then a pleasant cross-country run via High Wycombe (some of it also motorway and dual-carriageway), it would be considered a fairly easy journey.

 

It's certainly further for me from South Devon, and even further for those from Cornwall or Scotland, for example, to say nothing of those from overseas who attended.

 

I had a chat with a friend from the Swansea area over the weekend, who had an even longer journey than your three hours.

 

Aylesbury is even somewhat easier to get to by rail these days, now that Chiltern run a service to/from Oxford, although it's admittedly not the best.

 

I'd have thought that the previous venue, Leatherhead, would have been harder to get to for folk from South Wales.

 

If it was held on some peoples doorstep there would be too many steps.

 

Mike.

[RANGERS]

It's never as simplistic as that. Lots of factors involved, some of which have been aired in this thread (and the one in 2016, 2015, 2014 ...).

 

1) Just because the overall membership is increasing doesn't mean they all can/will come to Scaleforum. 

 

2) The Railex effect. 'Why should I go to two shows a year at the same venue'? I don't get that one myself, but there you are. 

 

3) For some reason, Leatherhead apparently attracted more spontaneous local family 'let's go to the model show' attendance.

 

The Scaleforum management team and the Scalefour Society committee are fully aware of all these factors and more, and I have every confidence that they (with input from the membership as appropriate) will come to a sensible decision, if indeed one is needed at the moment.

 

All that said, I went as always with a large contingent of our area group from Devon, and as always had a great time.

 

 

It's never as simplistic as that. Lots of factors involved, some of which have been aired in this thread (and the one in 2016, 2015, 2014 ...).

 

1) Just because the overall membership is increasing doesn't mean they all can/will come to Scaleforum. 

 

2) The Railex effect. 'Why should I go to two shows a year at the same venue'? I don't get that one myself, but there you are. 

 

3) For some reason, Leatherhead apparently attracted more spontaneous local family 'let's go to the model show' attendance.

 

The Scaleforum management team and the Scalefour Society committee are fully aware of all these factors and more, and I have every confidence that they (with input from the membership as appropriate) will come to a sensible decision, if indeed one is needed at the moment.

 

All that said, I went as always with a large contingent of our area group from Devon, and as always had a great time.

Valid points raised, but to these I'd add:

 

1) Whilst the membership may well be increasing, it doesn't mean that the members will go to Scaleforum. To some degree the aims of the event (and Expo EM) are being fulfilled by the wonders of the internet, things such as Youtube and indeed RMWeb have changed the way people learn and hone their skills, so Scaleforum is becoming a victim of its own success in that sense. The purpose is still the same, the manner in which its being delivered is changing/ has changed. 

 

2). These are two different shows, there will be a large degree of commonality of audience but I'm not sure how much this should impact on attendance. They're in the same venue but just as Tottenham V Liverpool and England V Slovenia will both be played at Wembley in the same year, I doubt that either will have much influence the attendance of the other. You're there for the event, not the venue.

 

3) Since its been a number of years since the last Leatherhead show, I think we've already established the market is rapidly changing so what happened in Leatherhead in 2010 but doesn't happen in Aylesbury in 2017, wouldn't likely still happen in Leatherhead in 2017.

 

Overall, show attendances throughout the country are changing, most are falling, I doubt many can show a ten year increase. When once clubs ran shows as their main source of income, nowadays they are much less so and involve a much higher degree of risk for the organisers, so for those that do a good job, we should welcome and support their efforts. By all means offer constructive comment, but don't knock a show because of something which is an integral part of what it's about (part built layouts at Scaleforum, shock horror) it all helps to If you don't like it, don't go!

Edited September 28, 2017 by RANGERS

[mozzer models]

I'm concerned that the attendance at Scaleforum declines year on year. I'm also concerned that this decline is occurring in the face of increasing membership of the society. I can remember when the show was rammed, uncomfortably so sometimes.

Something is wrong here and if Scaleforum is to continue then this matter must be attended too.

As to the modelling, everything I saw was of a very high standard no complaints from me there.

But the attendance issues do have to be addressed.

Regards

It could be that the age of the members is also going up & its getting to far to travel at there age

 

 

Now I was there as a Trader  But with My non trader hat on I feel layouts that are not at least 90% finished should not be at shows when I pay to get in to a show I am paying to see layouts not construction sites  to me unfinished building etc should be on the demo tables & not on layouts

[leopardml2341]

Humour warning:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. When is a show not a show?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A. When it's Scaleforum

 

 

I'm sure that will have upset some sensitive souls, or perhaps not when this is remembered 'it doesn't matter a jot what anybody else thinks'