Early ER hst formation

[kingfisher24]

I am thinking of doing a "now for something completely different" project, I usually model ex nbr locos etc but im looking for a little change, not convering to the more modern image but just fancy a little diversion as it were.

 

Im looking to model one of the original hst formations of the late 70's in original livery/condition. I have acquired the end cars one poweredand one not (although the dummy is going to be motorised also) but need to work out a typical formation. The trouble is that i know about early hst formations as a giraffe knows about gardening.

Can and kind rmwebber help here with where to look or even a pic with the formations etc.

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

Gary p

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Original formation:

 

DMB, TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TS, TRSB, TS, TS, DMB

 

DMB = Power car with guard's accommodation. Also initially without an exhaust deflector on the roof

TF = First

TRUK = Kitchen

TS = Second

TRSB = Buffet

 

Within a couple of years the formation was slightly altered:

DMB, TF, TF, TRUK, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS, DMB

 

Formations later changed when the guard's accommodation was incorporated into the rear car in each set in a new TGS vehicle.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Enterprisingwestern]

Depends how early you mean!

 

 

Mike.

[Kris]

Also will depend which area you wish to model. HST's heading west were 7 coaches. 2x first 1x Buffett 4x second. 

[Legend]

Depends how early you mean!

 

1-MSP - 608 - 254013 Ranskill 27.03.78.jpg

 

Mike.

Yes but that's not typical , Mike . In East Coast service the formations are as Peter outlined above . Great times when BR ran more 125mph trains than anywhere else in the world except for Japan Edited August 7, 2017 by Legend

[kingfisher24]

I am planning to model the eastern region (running into edinburgh), one other member at my local club has done a set in the executive livery. And so im doing the earlier version.

[45125]

Original formation:

 

DMB, TF, TF, TRUK, TS, TS, TRSB, TS, TS, DMB

 

DMB = Power car with guard's accommodation. Also initially without an exhaust deflector on the roof

TF = First

TRUK = Kitchen

TS = Second

TRSB = Buffet

 

Within a couple of years the formation was slightly altered:

DMB, TF, TF, TRUK, TRSB, TS, TS, TS, TS, DMB

 

Formations later changed when the guard's accommodation was incorporated into the rear car in each set in a new TGS vehicle.

 

Only the first 20 sets were formed like that, the last sets were formed DMBS, 2XTF, TRUB, 5XTS, DMB.

[The Johnster]

The guard's accommodation was moved into the TGS following complaints about the ride (appalling, worst place on the train) and noise levels in the original power car 'office'.  This originally included a control desk and cab which was intended to be used for shunting light power cars, but was fairly rapidly dispensed with.  I think I remember a windscreen wiper for the cab window, left side facing the way the unit would have been being driven in such a movement.  Some drivers complained that the guard had nowhere to sit where he could not interfere with the controls, though of course if guards had wanted to do this they had had plenty of opportunity riding in the back cabs of freight train locos...

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Getting back to the original ECML formations, before the TRUB sets appeared, the trailers were arranged:

 

TF, TF, *TRUK, TS, TS, TRSB*, TS, TS

 

The * indicates the kitchen or buffet end of the vehicle.

 

The TRUKs kitchen end was usually (but not invariably) next to the TFs. Say 90-95% of the time next to the TFs.

The TRSBs buffet end was more variable -  often marshalled the other way round as it didn't matter that much.

[russ p]

The guard's accommodation was moved into the TGS following complaints about the ride (appalling, worst place on the train) and noise levels in the original power car 'office'.  This originally included a control desk and cab which was intended to be used for shunting light power cars, but was fairly rapidly dispensed with.  I think I remember a windscreen wiper for the cab window, left side facing the way the unit would have been being driven in such a movement.  Some drivers complained that the guard had nowhere to sit where he could not interfere with the controls, though of course if guards had wanted to do this they had had plenty of opportunity riding in the back cabs of freight train locos...

Was this on production power cars aswell? I thought it was only the prototype power cars

[Davexoc]

Was this on production power cars aswell? I thought it was only the prototype power cars

It was on the early ones, but by the early 80s I think it was dispensed with. Probably removed as they went through Works?

 

Dave

[45125]

It was on the early ones, but by the early 80s I think it was dispensed with. Probably removed as they went through Works?

 

Dave

 

It was only the prototype that had a driving position at the van end.

[davepen]

I used to travel between Cheltenham and Durham (Uni) 1981-84. On what was later branded Cross Country Trains.

First trip in January 81, was MK1 corridor stock hauled by Brush 47.  At York a Deltic took over.

Later the trains through Cheltenham were then mainly Peak (44/45) hauled, remember getting my bike in the Brake in 82.

Then Cross Country got the HST-125, making bike transport difficult.

This would typically mean at Durham a ECML with two firsts at the London end, and the Cross Country with one first at the Newcastle end.

I think the Cross Country would reverse directions at Gloucester.  As a "poor student" the position of the Buffett wasn't of interest or note!

 

The route between Derby and York at weekends could be very varied, arriving the wrong way into Sheffield Midland from the GC, and then going via Leeds or Doncaster.

That than allowed some very fast running round Selby.

So I guess between Doncaster and Edinburgh you could see either of the two formations.

[The Johnster]

Was this on production power cars aswell? I thought it was only the prototype power cars

 

Production '253' power cars, certainly on the WR; the ER's production '254' HSTs were a later batch I think and I would not care to make a definitive statement about them in this respect.  I cannot remember the TGS brake vans before 1978, but it was a long time ago now; I do remember the changeover being fairly rapid.  On the WR the Paddington end power car van space was usually used for Royal Mail traffic and the other end for BR's Red Star and other parcels, this practice continuing until at least the late 90s.  I am discussing the guard's accommodation here; the driver's position and control desk was on the prototype only.

Edited August 10, 2017 by The Johnster

[45125]

Production '253' power cars, certainly on the WR; the ER's production '254' HSTs were a later batch I think and I would not care to make a definitive statement about them in this respect.  I cannot remember the TGS brake vans before 1978, but it was a long time ago now; I do remember the changeover being fairly rapid.  On the WR the Paddington end power car van space was usually used for Royal Mail traffic and the other end for BR's Red Star and other parcels, this practice continuing until at least the late 90s.  I am discussing the guard's accommodation here; the driver's position and control desk was on the prototype only.

 

43153 was the first power car to have no guards provision in the van.  Some power cars still had the guards accommodation right up till they were fitted with MTUs.

[frobisher]

I cannot remember the TGS brake vans before 1978, but it was a long time ago now; I do remember the changeover being fairly rapid.

The TGS's were introduced from 1980 onwards, concurrent with the new build DMB's with no guard's accommodation (also with smoke deflectors).

[Peter Kazmierczak]

When the TGS's were being constructed at Litchurch Lane, the coach bodies were stencilled as GTS.

[br2975]

Some sample rakes as seen at Cardiff Central on the dates shown.

 

 

253007 43014 41015 41016 40007 42090 42021 42022 42023 43120 02/05/1979

 

253010 43020 41021 41022 40010 42093 42030 42031 42032 43021 15/05/1979

 

253013 43027 41051 41052 40309 42076 42075 42077 42108 43026 02/05/1979

253014 43029 41029 41030 40014 42097 42042 42043 42044 43028 01/09/1979

253015 43127 41031 41032 40304 42098 42045 42046 42047 43031 28/08/1979

 

253022 43016 41017 41018 40303 42091 42024 42025 42026 43017 01/09/1979

253023 43120 41048 41047 40308 42070 42071 42106 42069 43046 01/09/1979

253024 43048 41050 41049 40004 42074 42072 42107 42073 43049 15/05/1979

 

Brian R

[rodent279]

Some sample rakes as seen at Cardiff Central on the dates shown.

 

 

253007 43014 41015 41016 40007 42090 42021 42022 42023 43120 02/05/1979

 

253010 43020 41021 41022 40010 42093 42030 42031 42032 43021 15/05/1979

 

253013 43027 41051 41052 40309 42076 42075 42077 42108 43026 02/05/1979

253014 43029 41029 41030 40014 42097 42042 42043 42044 43028 01/09/1979

253015 43127 41031 41032 40304 42098 42045 42046 42047 43031 28/08/1979

 

253022 43016 41017 41018 40303 42091 42024 42025 42026 43017 01/09/1979

253023 43120 41048 41047 40308 42070 42071 42106 42069 43046 01/09/1979

253024 43048 41050 41049 40004 42074 42072 42107 42073 43049 15/05/1979

 

Brian R

 

You know, that just shows how there is value in observing even small details.

 

30 years ago, I would have laughed at someone taking notes of HST formations. Like a lot of people, I was interested in things that moved and made noises. Now, when there are endless photos of Deltics etc on flickr, that sort of information is gold dust!

 

Some time back, someone on here was asking about typical ECML coach formations in the 70's. One of the replies was from someone who, during overnight all-lines at somewhere like Doncaster or York, in the wee small hours when he had nothing better to do, took note of the formation of all the overnight trains that passed through-sleepers, van trains etc. Again, I would have rolled on the floor laughing at that,  but it is priceless info now.

 

Likewise, with photos, there are millions of photos out there of the big sexy stuff like Deltics etc, but I find myself more and more looking at the details-the rolling stock, odd liveries, cars, billboards, trackside details, platform details, how stations & surrounding buildings have changed. How many people took photos of billboards? Or BRUTES winding their way along platforms with a load of trolleys behind them? Once the kind of clutter you wanted to avoid in photos, these things are almost forgotten now.

 

cheers N

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've got notebooks full of formations from 1979 through the 80's.

I was so sad, I even noted which end the catering section was on the vehicle.........

[justin]

I have the following 9 HST formations in a Guard's book. The Guard seems to have been based at Edinbugh Waverley. I would question his diligence as there are some obvious errors but everything below is exactly as written in the book.
 
Mon 18/12/78 13.10 Edinburgh Waverley-Kings Cross
43076 41077 41078 40511 42151 42152 40028 42153 42154 43077
 
 
Tue 19/12/78 13.10 Edinburgh Waverley-Kings Cross
43093 42189 42190 40037 42188 42187 40520 41096 41095 43092
 
 
Thur 21/12/78 13.10 Edinburgh Waverley-Kings Cross
43092 41095 41096 40520 42187 42188 40037 42190 42187 43093
NB 42187 appears twice but probably means 42189 next to 43093-see 19/12/78
 
 
Fri 22/12/78 13.10 Edinburgh Waverley-Kings Cross
43060 41113 41074 40509 42143 42144 40026 42145 42146 43072
 
 
Fri 5/1/79 08.10 Edinburgh Waverley-Kings Cross
43082 42146 42145 40026 42144 42143 40509 41074 41113 43060
NB No idea if 43082 is a power car swap or incompetence-see 22/12/78
 
 
Sun 7/1/79 12.00 Kings Cross-Edinburgh Waverley
43056 41057 41058 40501 42112 40015 42113 42114 43056
NB Two power cars with the same number & only 3TS
 
 
Mon 5/2/79 17.55 Edinburgh Waverley-Leeds
43100 41065 41066 40505 42127 42128 40032 42129 42130 43065
 
Thur 8/2/79 11.10 Edinburgh Waverley-Newcastle
43095 41095 41096 40520 42187 42188 40037 42190 42189 43894
NB 43894 (the 8 is a very distinct 8 rather than a badly written 0)
 
Thur 22/3/79 Unknown working
43070 42190 42172 40034 42188 42187 40520 41096 41095 43059
 
The Guard worked all these services either Waverley-Newcastle or Newcastle-Waverley
 
Regards
 
Justin

Edited August 15, 2017 by justin