Woolmer Green 1935-40

[Barry O]

I vote for option 1.

Have you looked at anywhere else?

Knebworth?

Stevenage?

 

Just wondering...

 

Baz

 

[Dylan Sanderson]

1 hour ago, Jesse Sim said:

I’ve asked a few peoples opinions, so I thought I’d jump on here and ask everyone here as well. Everyone’s opinions and ideas will be welcomed!
Woolmer Greens curve starts just before the four tracks become two. After a few hours of looking at my track plans I have a few options. 

 

1. Have all points, so the four track to two and the crossover on the straight and then curve into the viaduct.

2. Have the four to two tracks on the straight, start curving into the crossover and then the viaduct 

3. Start the curve as the prototype.

One and two are the easiest routes to using the peco bullhead and also considering the curve into the fiddle yard. But is it too much modelling licence being used? It will still look like the prototype as the curve is very faint at the beginning. 

I'd say 3 if possible, if it's not do-able then go for 1

[Jesse Sim]

5 hours ago, Barry O said:

I vote for option 1.

Have you looked at anywhere else?

Knebworth?

Stevenage?

 

Just wondering...

 

Baz

 

I have, I was also considering Greenwood. 
 

however, the layouts set up for double track at the north end and two tracks at the south end. 
 

With Woolmer Green only a small percentage of the fiddleyard entries need to be changed. 

[thegreenhowards]

Jessie,

 

Can’t you go for option 3 with a very gentle curve and using Peco Bullhead points given the ‘red leader’ treatment. I appreciate bending expensive new points might be scary but given the cost of everything else you’re doing/ ripping up, I’d have thought that getting it right would be worth it in the long run.

 

Andy

[St Enodoc]

15 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Jessie,

 

Can’t you go for option 3 with a very gentle curve and using Peco Bullhead points given the ‘red leader’ treatment. I appreciate bending expensive new points might be scary but given the cost of everything else you’re doing/ ripping up, I’d have thought that getting it right would be worth it in the long run.

 

Andy

Jesse, I'm with Andy. Having seen you wrangle points the Grantham way you should have no trouble doing this. You'll be much happier in the long run.

[t-b-g]

With only 4 points on the scenic section, perhaps this would be an opportunity to enhance the look by forgetting Peco and making some decent length proper main line points. That would allow the gentle curve version without the need to wrestle the points to shape.

 

Go on Jesse. I think you have developed your skills to level that would allow you to make a good go of it and if it doesn't work out you could still use ready to lay points.

[37Oban]

Hi Jesse,

 

I agree with t-b-g.  Making your first turnout can be daunting, but after that you soon realise that prototype track formations are your oyster without the constraints of commercial products and you'll wish you had taken the plunge earlier!

 

Roja

[Jesse Sim]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Jessie,

 

Can’t you go for option 3 with a very gentle curve and using Peco Bullhead points given the ‘red leader’ treatment. I appreciate bending expensive new points might be scary but given the cost of everything else you’re doing/ ripping up, I’d have thought that getting it right would be worth it in the long run.

 

Andy

Hi Andie? As I’m Jesse 

 

The Red Leader way is how I did my points on Brighton Junction, proper PW and I also bent an altered double slips. I have no problems with bending perfectly new peco points the problem is the curve into the fiddleyard. I’m concerned it will be too much of a sharpe radius by the time it hits the scenic break. 
 

I agree with trying to get it right, but I have to consider the trains actually running into the layout haha. 

[Jesse Sim]

43 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

With only 4 points on the scenic section, perhaps this would be an opportunity to enhance the look by forgetting Peco and making some decent length proper main line points. That would allow the gentle curve version without the need to wrestle the points to shape.

 

Go on Jesse. I think you have developed your skills to level that would allow you to make a good go of it and if it doesn't work out you could still use ready to lay points.

I’ll be honest Tony, I’m sh*t scared to make my own points. Perhaps maybe one day I will, but I like to enjoy the other things in life like riding my Harley, playing video games and eating, sleeping, drinking and having conversations with the outside world haha…. If I build my own points I reckon I’d go stir crazy. Look at John @St Enodoc he’s only 43, see what’s it’s done to him… 

 

In all seriousness, I will go down the peco bullhead direction, it’s less time consuming, excellent to work with and I know what I’m doing. 
 

 

[thegreenhowards]

19 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Hi Andie? As I’m Jesse 

 

The Red Leader way is how I did my points on Brighton Junction, proper PW and I also bent an altered double slips. I have no problems with bending perfectly new peco points the problem is the curve into the fiddleyard. I’m concerned it will be too much of a sharpe radius by the time it hits the scenic break. 
 

I agree with trying to get it right, but I have to consider the trains actually running into the layout haha. 

I agree that it’s not worth compromising the fiddle yard entry/ exit. Smooth running is more important the prototype fidelity (to me at least). 

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

With only 4 points on the scenic section, perhaps this would be an opportunity to enhance the look by forgetting Peco and making some decent length proper main line points. That would allow the gentle curve version without the need to wrestle the points to shape.

 

Go on Jesse. I think you have developed your skills to level that would allow you to make a good go of it and if it doesn't work out you could still use ready to lay points.

 

1 hour ago, Jesse Sim said:

I’ll be honest Tony, I’m sh*t scared to make my own points. Perhaps maybe one day I will, but I like to enjoy the other things in life like riding my Harley, playing video games and eating, sleeping, drinking and having conversations with the outside world haha…. If I build my own points I reckon I’d go stir crazy. Look at John @St Enodoc he’s only 43, see what’s it’s done to him… 

 

In all seriousness, I will go down the peco bullhead direction, it’s less time consuming, excellent to work with and I know what I’m doing. 
 

 

Jesse, have a look at this new range:

 

https://www.britishfinescale.com/product-p/finetrax-00-b7.htm

 

There's at least one thread on these:

 

Might be worth thinking about.

 

Oh and flattery will get you everywhere - I wish I were 43 again (no, actually, I don't but that's another story).

[NFWEM57]

11 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

Jesse, have a look at this new range:

 

https://www.britishfinescale.com/product-p/finetrax-00-b7.htm

 

There's at least one thread on these:

 

Might be worth thinking about.

 

Oh and flattery will get you everywhere - I wish I were 43 again (no, actually, I don't but that's another story).

 

1 hour ago, Jesse Sim said:

I’ll be honest Tony, I’m sh*t scared to make my own points. Perhaps maybe one day I will, but I like to enjoy the other things in life like riding my Harley, playing video games and eating, sleeping, drinking and having conversations with the outside world haha…. If I build my own points I reckon I’d go stir crazy. Look at John @St Enodoc he’s only 43, see what’s it’s done to him… 

 

In all seriousness, I will go down the peco bullhead direction, it’s less time consuming, excellent to work with and I know what I’m doing. 
 

 

As St Enodoc says, give it a go.

 

A B7 is already available in OO and EM and a 1:7 crossing will be available shortly, again in OO and EM.  They only take 40-60 minutes to make, no gluing of chairs, no gauges required, just a few parts to assemble.  And if that does no temp you, they are cheaper..!  If you read the thread you will find they can also be curved very simply.

 

Patrick

[Jesse Sim]

This is the rough idea I have, which is option 2, the bottleneck on the straight, start the curve. The curve is about 4 - 4 1/2 ft radius. 
 

If I bring the curve back any further towards me ( from the angle the pictures are taken) it means the fiddleyard will have a violent turn for the trains to run in and off scene. 
 

Comprising must be considered, it will never be dead scale, I wish it were but If I have to live with it this way. I’m happy. 

[Chamby]

5 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

This is the rough idea I have, which is option 2, the bottleneck on the straight, start the curve. The curve is about 4 - 4 1/2 ft radius. 
 

If I bring the curve back any further towards me ( from the angle the pictures are taken) it means the fiddleyard will have a violent turn for the trains to run in and off scene. 
 

Comprising must be considered, it will never be dead scale, I wish it were but If I have to live with it this way. I’m happy. 

 

First impressions, Jesse... that’s a drastic bit of re-modelling!  The larger radius curve looks better though, and dropping part of the baseboard for a viaduct will also look good.  

 

To my eye, larger radius turnouts would also improve the track flow.  That perception might just be down to the perspective in these photo's, but it would be worth checking versus original images.  That would strengthen the argument to build your own - as others have said, you only need five of them.

[TrevorP1]

31 minutes ago, Chamby said:

To my eye, larger radius turnouts would also improve the track flow.  That perception might just be down to the perspective in these photo's, but it would be worth checking versus original images.  That would strengthen the argument to build your own - as others have said, you only need five of them.

 

Whilst I've used the Peco product on my layout - and I'm quite happy -  if I'd built my own s & c the overall look would be much better. As it is, the main line has to be on a straight over the pointwork wheres it would look much better if everything had been constructed on a curve.

 

I did build my own for a layout I built in my 20s, ply and rivet construction. It's not that difficult but patience, eyesight and time aren't what they were!  Have a go Jesse, if you can build brass wagon kits you can build track, I'm sure you'll be glad you did!

 

[Jesse Sim]

Thanks all for all the comments, recommendations, ideas etc.

 

I will be sticking with the peco bullhead idea though. I know what I’m doing, I know how to alter it and it’s dead easy to install and looks much better then code 100. Granted buikding my own would look even better, but I’m just not ready for that road yet. 

[Dylan Sanderson]

6 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

I know what I’m doing, I know how to alter it and it’s dead easy to install

Famous last words...

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, Dylan Sanderson said:

Famous last words...

Keep going and I won’t help you with that wagon 

[gr.king]

3 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

Thanks all for all the comments, recommendations, ideas etc.

 

I will be sticking with the peco bullhead idea though. I know what I’m doing, I know how to alter it and it’s dead easy to install and looks much better then code 100. Granted buikding my own would look even better, but I’m just not ready for that road yet. 

 

Sounds like a reasonable compromise for overall realism.

[Jesse Sim]

19 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

Sounds like a reasonable compromise for overall realism.

I think so as well. Did a bit more mapping out today and worked out the curve on a luxurious 7ft radius. 

[Jesse Sim]

A bit more planning undertaken, thanks to Graham Nicholas @LNER4479 for helping with a track diagram and ideas on how to get out of the ‘straight-curve’ syndrome, is that what you called it Red Leader?

 

So this is the view looking from the southern fiddleyard entrance. You can see the original layouts curve and 7ft new curve marked out, I really like it like this. The main differences will be the northern bridge will be closer to the bottleneck then the prototype and also the viaduct is closer. But that’s the price to pay, modellers licence! 
 

The curve might tighten slightly just before going off scene in the bottom of the photo. 

[LNER4479]

16 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

A bit more planning undertaken, thanks to Graham Nicholas @LNER4479 for helping with a track diagram and ideas on how to get out of the ‘straight-curve’ syndrome, is that what you called it Red Leader?

 

Hi Jesse,

 

But you've still got 'straight-curve' going here Jesse!

 

Going away from the camera, you've got: curve-straight-curve-straight (albeit modest curves). The real railway wouldn't - and didn't (in terms of location you're trying to portray) - do that. The real railway went (goes!) curve-transition-straight. Why the short length of straight where the trailing crossover is? You know how to curve those!

 

You also seem to be resistant to setting out that short four track stretch as being anything other than parallel to the wall. Throw off the shackles! Even just a modest 10-15 degrees to parallel will make a huge difference to the alignment and look far more convincing.

 

I also think you might not have appreciated (yet?) just how much of those existing baseboard tops you need to remove in order to create the convincing dip in the landscape that the railway crosses on the short viaduct PLUS approach embankments either side. I estimate at least 8-10 feet in total.

 

Tempted to reply privately but thought I'd just put those comments out there for others to see and maybe comment accordingly. If I'm a lone voice then I'll crawl back under my rock!

 

[Chamby]

11 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

If I'm a lone voice then I'll crawl back under my rock!

 

Yes, the inconsistent curve was the first thing I noticed too, though I held back from mentioning it.  One long smooth curve, with the crossover on the same radius and transitions at either end, would look much better.

[PMP]

If you’re fixed on using the large radius Peco points by cutting the web underneath they will ‘bend’ and that gentle curvature required might give you the flow in the track you need. I think seeing your other modelling skills a curved point/s would be achievable without too much angst. A good few years ago I had much the same thoughts as you, but one day thought ‘#### it’ I’ll have a go, and they worked out ok. 

 

As far as the viaduct goes that valley section could be relatively easily sorted by dropping the surrounding baseboards to the valley floor level and leaving the track bed supported on battens above it, a bit like the pic above. Perhaps once you’ve got the alignment sorted, use a jig saw to cut either side of the track bed, and then ‘drop’ the valley floor as required. Using insulation foam the valley side could be easily contoured as appropriate.

Edited July 13, 2021 by PMP

[St Enodoc]

44 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

But you've still got 'straight-curve' going here Jesse!

 

Going away from the camera, you've got: curve-straight-curve-straight (albeit modest curves). The real railway wouldn't - and didn't (in terms of location you're trying to portray) - do that. The real railway went (goes!) curve-transition-straight. Why the short length of straight where the trailing crossover is? You know how to curve those!

Aye, there's the rub. Most model railways consist of straights connected by curves. Real railways and a few model railways, consist of curves connected by curves and, just occasionally, by straights.

 

My suggestion is to forget the points and the slow lines for the time being and set out the double track and fast lines in a nice smooth curve that gradually tightens from North to South - and yes, I think that the South end curve could indeed go a bit tighter.

 

Once you've done that, mark the alignment permanently on the baseboard then, and only then, set out the crossover and the slow lines.

 

I've seen you curving points before so I know that won't be a problem for you.