Woolmer Green 1935-40

[lezz01]

PMP is right, it is very easy to curve large radius Peco point in the way he describes. I have done so myself with great success. The only real hard thing about it is getting up the nerve to do it as it invalidates the warranty. I have two such points on my current layout that have been treated thus.

Regards Lez.   

[LNER4479]

3 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Aye, there's the rub. Most model railways consist of straights connected by curves. Real railways and a few model railways, consist of curves connected by curves and, just occasionally, by straights.

 

 

Here's a thing John, railway engineer-to-railway engineer:

 

Did you know that, in the very early days, the pioneer railway builders either didn't know about or didn't bother with transition curves? This was brought home to me in my training when I spent some time looking at track alignment and the effects on vehicle ride. I was working with some real railway curvature diagrams and, as originally engineered, the trackbeds were indeed straight-curve-straight. The curvature diagram instantly jumps from 0 (straight line) to curve (ie a flat line, parallel with the X-axis.

 

Now for a slow-moving good train, that isn't a problem - but as train speeds increased it became a problem! To a certain extent, the civil engineer can engineer a transition within the confines of the trackbed by slewing the track about and you then end up with a slightly weird curvature diagram, which shows as a short gradient at the start (the transition) which overshoots the intended curve and then needs to come back meet the parallel line that is the actual curve (be much easier if I could find one to show you!). That's because the maths tells you that the area between the curve line and the X-axis has to remain the same ... otherwise you're off into farmer Giles' field.

 

Many existing lines are still constrained by this fundamental but little understood legacy of the early railway builders. The only real solution is to build anew ...

[Tom F]

Just catching up with your new layout plans. Looks really exciting.

 

Happy memories of my LNER days!

[Jesse Sim]

Looking at the map of the track it isn’t a perfect curve from the bottleneck to the viaduct. I spent a good hour on a few different maps and they all show the bottleneck points to the crossover on a small straight with curves either end. 
 

It doesn’t matter if the lines are on a diagonal or parallel to the wall, they’re still on a straight aren’t they? 
 

If I bring it lower to where I’m standing in the room in the shot I will have a too tight of a radius to get into the fiddleyard, this end of the fiddleyard starts off with points straight away in order to get the maximum length of trains in. 
 

I know how to bend the points, I can and I will if need be. Ignore the baseboards they will be cut accordingly, the cuts go back to the four tracks right down to the entrance/exit of the fiddleyard. 
 

Unless I’m jsut daft, but looking at the map I have here of Woolmer Green, it’s a straight out of the bridge on the four tracks and then curves into two a small straight (perhaps it has a slight curve) and then curves over the viaduct. 

[Jesse Sim]

7 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

!That's because the maths tells you that the area between the curve line and the X-axis has to remain the same ... otherwise you're off into farmer Giles' field.

 

 

Well I’m f***ed then, I failed maths. 

 

I do appreciate your help and guidance RL, I’m understanding what your saying and how to do it but I’m also standing in front of the layout and can see that certain ways aren’t going to work due to not enough space. 
 

I think I might need to meet in middle ground to achieve it. 

[Jesse Sim]

A bit more tinkering this morning, I’ve snipped and curved the points to give it thag flow all the way through to the four track section. The four track section will run parallel with the wall, it’s inevitable. 
 

 

 

The southern curve will need to be tightened that fraction to allow a better flow of points and curves in the fiddleyard. Or I cut the scenic section back. 
 

[St Enodoc]

33 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

A bit more tinkering this morning, I’ve snipped and curved the points to give it thag flow all the way through to the four track section. The four track section will run parallel with the wall, it’s inevitable. 
 

 

 

The southern curve will need to be tightened that fraction to allow a better flow of points and curves in the fiddleyard. Or I cut the scenic section back. 
 

Looks a lot better! Tightening the South end curve a little should work.

[Jesse Sim]

8 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Looks a lot better! Tightening the South end curve a little should work.

I think so 

[LNER4479]

Scenic alignment certainly look a lot betterer. Even if the real railway did have a short straight (which I very much doubt), the trains will look much more satisfying running on the smooth alignment you're now proposing.

 

I'm just wondering if you can be more radical at the southern end of the fiddle yard? You need as many roads as possible for variety of trains but how many really long ones do you need? Can you delay some of the FY points until further round the curve? Can the shorter roads wait until you're round the curve then use 3-ways? Kick-back sidings, a la 'Sir'?! If you can delay the start of the fan of points then you'll give yerself much more flexibility.

 

Put another way, are you compromising the scenic side because you're trying to graft it on to the old fiddle yard? No gain without pain!

[Jesse Sim]

27 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Scenic alignment certainly look a lot betterer. Even if the real railway did have a short straight (which I very much doubt), the trains will look much more satisfying running on the smooth alignment you're now proposing.

 

I'm just wondering if you can be more radical at the southern end of the fiddle yard? You need as many roads as possible for variety of trains but how many really long ones do you need? Can you delay some of the FY points until further round the curve? Can the shorter roads wait until you're round the curve then use 3-ways? Kick-back sidings, a la 'Sir'?! If you can delay the start of the fan of points then you'll give yerself much more flexibility.

 

Put another way, are you compromising the scenic side because you're trying to graft it on to the old fiddle yard? No gain without pain!

Upon further investigation the small straight I was talking about doesn’t exist, it’s the slightest curve, so my apologies I didn’t have my glasses on. 
 

I do have kick back sidings that run down the wall where the window is (see picture) and I could make some of the short sidings kick backs but at the same time I’ll only gain an extra 200mm of scenic section. But if I do that then the down lines will be entering the scenic section on curved points and I had that on the previous fiddleyard a year or two ago and it just wasn’t great. By cutting back the scenic section that slightest bit I get a smooth flowing fiddleyard and there isn’t any tight curves on the scenic section. I am very happy to live with that, I’m channeling Sir here. 
 

So here’s the southern end FY entrance/exit.

 

 
 

The backscene could go perhaps 100mm back, just as the inside (down) line kinks in to the point. 
 

Then heading north, the viaduct starts about where it says drop. 
 

 

And ends about where the book is. 
 

 

You can see where I’ve marked with red where everything will be cut. Where the track is is where it will stay at that height with everything around it getting dropped 225mm with the landscape being built up and down with foam. I’ve given myself plenty of room either side of the tracks to adjust anything and then once happy I’ll slice it again to where it needs to be. The signal box area which is flat ground will jsut be on foam. 
 

In conclusion modellers licence will be used, the layout is doable and it will still look the part. The main thing is everything is slightly a bit closer, the bottleneck to the crossover and the crossover to the viaduct. It will be too squished to use Welwyn North Tunnel as a scenic break so it will just be a hole cut into the timber backscene. Another compromise will be the north scenic break bridge will be closer to the bottleneck. For my first prototype and limited space I still think this will work. 

[St Enodoc]

41 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

It will be too squished to use Welwyn North Tunnel as a scenic break so it will just be a hole cut into the timber backscene.

Wait until you've got further on before finalising that decision. You'll need the hole anyway, of course, but you might find the tunnel mouth will work after all (albeit closer to the viaduct than it should be).

[Jesse Sim]

5 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Wait until you've got further on before finalising that decision. You'll need the hole anyway, of course, but you might find the tunnel mouth will work after all (albeit closer to the viaduct than it should be).

I don’t think I will change it John, it really is far too close. 

[Michael Edge]

I would move the tunnel, looks far better than a hole in the backscene. I've moved things a lot further than that on Herculaneum Dock and even people who know the area well don't notice.

[Sharky]

Looking good so far Jesse!
I love the fact you're not going for a typical station with goods yard. We see far too many of them at exhibitions and nobody ever shunts them either!

It's been a dream of mine to create an exhibition layout of just a railway line running through country, with maybe passing loops / layby sidings like you're doing. One Day...

 

I agree with most the statements about transitional curves.
I also think that moving the tunnel mouth to use as the scenic break will be much better on the eye than a hole in the backscene.
But that's just my 2 cents.

Looking forward to seeing how you progress.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sharky

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Sharky said:

We see far too many of them at exhibitions and nobody ever shunts them either!

I know a man who does...

[Jesse Sim]

14 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I would move the tunnel, looks far better than a hole in the backscene. I've moved things a lot further than that on Herculaneum Dock and even people who know the area well don't notice.

 

10 hours ago, Sharky said:

Looking good so far Jesse!
I love the fact you're not going for a typical station with goods yard. We see far too many of them at exhibitions and nobody ever shunts them either!

It's been a dream of mine to create an exhibition layout of just a railway line running through country, with maybe passing loops / layby sidings like you're doing. One Day...

 

I agree with most the statements about transitional curves.
I also think that moving the tunnel mouth to use as the scenic break will be much better on the eye than a hole in the backscene.
But that's just my 2 cents.

Looking forward to seeing how you progress.

 

Only problem I see with having the tunnel is the landscape will rise very sharply up to the tunnel mouth from a low point at the viaduct. 
 

I’ll have to wait to see if it’s doable after tracks been laid. 
 

Thanks Mike and Sharky

[jwealleans]

17 hours ago, Sharky said:

station with goods yard. We see far too many of them at exhibitions and nobody ever shunts them either!

 

I was going to say that you've obviously never been to a show where I've been operating.    Then i saw where you live.   You've obviously never been to a show where I've been operating.

[Jesse Sim]

48 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

 

I was going to say that you've obviously never been to a show where I've been operating.    Then i saw where you live.   You've obviously never been to a show where I've been operating.

Do fiddleyard’s count as shunting?

[jwealleans]

16 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

Do fiddleyard’s count as shunting?

 

If they're on display, why not?   I wasn't thinking about Grantham - Paul and Tom have got that gig sewn up - but all the other layouts I've exhibited with have featured shunting, whether they liked it or not.

Edited July 15, 2021 by jwealleans

[Sharky]

1 hour ago, jwealleans said:

 

I was going to say that you've obviously never been to a show where I've been operating.    Then i saw where you live.   You've obviously never been to a show where I've been operating.

 

Yes unfortunately I haven't made it to the British Isles yet.
I had planned to get there this year during my leave just gone, but that dream died last year... (Thank Rona)

 

I myself also try and shunt whenever I'm operating on an exhibition layout.
Especially our club's large model of Maryborough Station, as St. Enodoc can verify from the two Sydney Exhibitions we have been too.

[Barry O]

Look out for other layouts.. Grantham is shunted, as is Herculaneum Dock  and sometimes Chapel en le Frith (Central) has its goods yard visited. Spent yesterday driving Wentworth Junction.. complete with Banking engines going on and off trains, empty coal wagons tripped into the Colliery etc.. if it is there on a layout a Goods Yard must be shunted!

 

Shame you haven't got more room Jesse, Hitchin would have been fun as well..

 

Baz

[St Enodoc]

21 hours ago, Sharky said:

I myself also try and shunt whenever I'm operating on an exhibition layout.
Especially our club's large model of Maryborough Station, as St. Enodoc can verify from the two Sydney Exhibitions we have been too.

Indeed!

Edited July 16, 2021 by St Enodoc

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, Barry O said:

Look out for other layouts.. Grantham is shunted, as is Herculaneum Dock  and sometimes Chapel en le Frith (Central) has its goods yard visited. Spent yesterday driving Wentworth Junction.. complete with Banking engines going on and off trains, empty coal wagons tripped into the Colliery etc.. if it is there on a layout a Goods Yard must be shunted!

 

Shame you haven't got more room Jesse, Hitchin would have been fun as well..

 

Baz

Essendine Baz, Essendine. 

[gr.king]

Wath?

[Jesse Sim]

12 hours ago, gr.king said:

Wath?

What?