Windermere branch freight & parcels

[u112540]

Anyone have any info on freight and parcels working on the Windermere branch  - timings and destinations - in the late 1960s? I have the Oakwood Press history of the branch but, although it mentions them existing that is pretty much it. I am guessing there were freight trips from Carnforth or perhaps Ribble Yard.

 

Good to see a proper branch that, at that even into the 70's had loco hauled trains and freight traffic, so I can justify large diesels on a branch line. 

[Bullied462]

Hello, not sure I can help you with this. I originate from Kendal and have virtual obsession with this branch line, have managed to collect many photos of the branch, I am 53 and used to visit the line every Tuesday and Thursday with my beloved grandad which is probably where my obsession comes from. I could take you to the old goods yard and station site and show you everything I can remember. I love that branch line and everything about it and would model a part of it if I had the room. If I can be of any help please contact me. Roger Iain Mason SEN, RNMH, VR. Cumbrian Railways Association member

[MarcD]

You could contact Phil (SteamAle) of this parish, He was the chair of the CRA and might still be. 

 

Marc

[u112540]

Thanks both. Sorry for the delay in responding but have been away.

 

In the interim, PCrail have released a signalling simulation for Oxenholme you might be interested in. Set in the 50's so a bit before the period I am interested in but looks good. PCrail.co.uk is the website I think. 

[Leander]

Feast your eyes on these.

 

http://cumbrianrailways.zenfolio.com/p122069934

[Stuart]

1966/67 WTT -

3L16 0500 Parcels from Preston, Kendal 0638/0643, Windermere 0703.

3L17 1120 Parcels from Lancaster, Oxenholme 1200/1212, Kendal 1217/1227, Windermere 1245

 

3L85 ECS (Vans) Windermere 1300, Kendal 1318, to work 1A65

1A65 SX 1820 Parcels Kendal to Kilburn High Road

 

1967 Summer WTT

6L25 SX Carnforth 0700, Kendal 0742/1025, Burneside R, Windermere 1050.

6L24 SX Carnforth 1338, Milnthorpe 1358/1430, Oxenholme 1446/1505, Kendal 1515/1612, Burneside 1620.

 

6P56 SO Kendal 1210, Milnethorpe 1235/1310, Carnforth 1327

8P56 SX Windermere 1240, Burneside 1300/1335, Kendal 1345/1444, Carnforth 1516 (6P56 from Kendal)

6P58 SX Burneside 1655, Kendal 1705/1735, Carnforth 1810

 

Plus loco hauled passenger and scheduled light engine workings to/from Carnforth MPD.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Stuart

[Antony Jenkinson]

u112540,

Hello!

I was brought up in Windermere and lived by the railway line and have memories of the trains I watched up to the end of steam locomotive working (and a for a period of time afterwards) from 1961.

It was seeing your post and query that finally prompted me to become a member rather than just a reader on this forum.

 

The following details are memories rather than facts and like you I would like to confirm what I remember and learn more details about the line.

The passenger service was much ammended in April 1966 in connection with the wholesale changes to LMR services on completion of the London - Manchester and Liverpool electrification works.

Many 'through' passenger services were withdrawn and local services worked by DMUs initially 'Derby Lightweight' units - later the type that became class 108s.

There were still steam locomotive hauled passenger trains in summer 1966 and 1967 - an arrival from Preston at c. 1000hrs which returned south at c.1100hrs to Preston with through coaches to Crewe / London and there was a weekday train from / to  Blackpool - arriving c. 1145hrs and going back at c. 1745hrs; both trains worked by class 5 4-6-0s from Lostock Hall and Carnforth.

There was also through coaches to Windermere off the c. 1030hrs SO London to Carlisle but I have no recollection of seeing them. Both the ex Preston and ex Blackpool trains and their return workings also ran in 1968 - the former with a EE type 4 (later class 40) - I cannot remember how the Blackpool train was formed.

The daily (SX) freight train ran to Windermere from Carnforth, arriving at c. 0945hrs and returning c. 1230hrs - worked by a Carnforth Black 5 or occasionally an 8F. It conveyed mainly coal in 16 ton mineral wagons and the occasional van, the return train often included a BG which presumably had arrived early in the morning bringing in the mail (3L16 as noted in Stuart's 1966/67 WTT details above. - did it run in 1968?).(I am surprised the northbound train was classified as a class 6 working - I thought the train was just a Carnforth 'trip' T47).

As Stuart shows there was also an afternoon working (SX) from Carnforth to Kendal and Burnesde and back but I never saw this. There was a Carnforth to Kendal and return freight on Saturdays. Kendal received oil tanks and conflats as well as vans and coal (in 16 ton mineral wagons) whilst Burneside received coal for Cropper's paper mill in small hopper wagons. For a short time from the 05.08.1968 the freight was worked by a Clayton diesel but by October 1968 they had been replaced by BR/Sulzer type 2s - I think the Windermere service ceased in 1969(?) and the Burnesde and Kendal sevice in 1972(?).

In the late 60s and early 70s Windermere still had a daily through train from and back to London - arriving at Windermere c. 1415hrs and going back at 1615hrs, it was worked by a Brush/Sulzer type 4 (later class 47) and later by an English Electric type 4 (later class 50) and lasted until 1972(?)

Occasional special trains still ran, I remember seeing one conveying the Pullman 'The Hadrian Bar'.

I have little recollection of the trains 3L17 and 3L85 in Stuart's WTT lists - I do remember a 'Britannia' arriving with a single van in early afternoons in c. 1967, maybe generally there was no traffic for Windermere; 3L85 seems to run very closly after the branch goods left Windermere - certainly on 01.08.1968 no. 44894 had several vans in the formation of the penultimate steam hauled freight train from Windermere.

I hope these memories are useful and hope that other contributors may confirm and expand them.

Regards Tony

[u112540]

Belated thanks for these helpful observations. Good to know iIcan legitimately model a  branch line with diesels, freight and loco hauled trains.

[NCB]

Belated thanks for these helpful observations. Good to know iIcan legitimately model a  branch line with diesels, freight and loco hauled trains.

 

If you look at the Lines in the Landscape thread under the Photography section, I've just put up 3 pics showing diesels on the branch, taken only a couple of weeks ago

[Bill Jamieson]

See the August edition of Steam World magazine for the timings of Carnforth target workings T46 and T47 which served Kendal, Burneside and Windermere in the last months of steam.

 

Bill

[u112540]

Thanks for the tip. Just seen. Very impressive article describing workings in the area, not just Windermere. Sad to think that it has all gone now. 

[Merlin242]

I am just starting to lay the track on a 00 model of Windermere station which will be the centrepiece of my layout Hincaster Junction. I can get all the tracks in although the platforms and some good sidings will be shortened at little. I would appreciate any information on the branch and especially operation of the station. I have of course the Oakwood press book and a collection of photos from the net and other places

If anyone can describe how the run round procedure worked in practice especially goods trains I would be very interested.

 

https://www.facebook.com/Hincaster.Junction.a.00.gauge.Model.Railway/

[Antony Jenkinson]

Merlin,

Hello!

You have asked about operations at Windermere (ex LNWR) railway station, particularly with reference to the shunting / 'running round' of trains.

As mentioned in a previous post (above) I was brought up next to the railway at Windermere and spent a lot of time watching trains there during the 1960s

– my recollections are memories from more than 50 years ago, not definitive operational 'facts'!

 

One of the major features of train working at the terminus was the use of 'gravity' shunting.

In the 1960s there was no engine release cross overs at the buffer stop ends of the platforms.

A drawing of the station track layout in earlier times (dated 1897) is shown in Harold Bowtell's book 'Over Shap to Carlisle' published by Ian Allan in 1983. This does show cross over point work linking the two main platforms (nos. 2 and 3) with the 'centre road' but even then these were not located near to the buffer stops. Both cross overs had been removed by the 1960s (and probably much earlier). The 'centre road' was still in situ in the 1960s and was used for carriage storage.

The normal arrangement to shunt trains was for the train engine to be uncoupled from the stock whilst in the platform whilst the passengers detrained and station work was completed. The train engine would then propel the train out of the platform and well up the bank on the main running line into the station (Harold Bowtell shows this gradient as 1 in 75 descending right into the station for more than a mile – although he shows the station site as level). The shunt would take engine and carriages past the cross overs between the main lines. The engine would then drop down to the water column and turntable line. The coaches would then be run back into the station by gravity - under the control of a shunter using the handbrake in the guards compartment - into which ever platform the stock was required to be in for it's next working or for stabling. (I imagine the same procedure was employed if the coaches were to be stabled in the carriage sidings on the east side of the station but I cannot remember watching this). Even 'long' train sets were dealt with in this manner - e.g. the 10 coach set off the c. 1935hrs arrival from Manchester and I don't remember the use of any pilot locomotive.

The procedure was not without risk and I remember a calamity in August 1962 when the stock crashed through the end wall of the station beyond the the buffer stop on platform 3 and out into the station forecourt! This area was where the Windermere / Bowness 'bus used to turn and wait – following this incident the 'bus turned and parked in another area 'just in case'. It wasn't the first time this type of crash had happened – at the time 'The Westmorland Gazette' showed a picture of an identical incident photographed c. 1910!

When BR 4-6-2 'Oliver Cromwell' worked a special train to Windermere in April 1968 Carnforth Class 5 4-6-0 no. 44874 was 'borrowed' off the Carnforth - Kendal goods train to assist shunting the stocks to release the 'Britannia' from the buffer stop (maybe the shunters were out of practice!).

I think that the 'gravity' method was still employed to manoeuvre the diesel off the c. 1415hrs arrival from London in the 1969/70 period. (Harold Bowtell says that the track layout at that time allowed an engine to 'run round' 5 coaches and that any train longer than that would have to be gravity shunted, the London train appears to have been made up of 8 or more coaches).

 

You specifically have asked about how freight traffic was dealt with....................

That has got me thinking, and I hope that some one is able to confirm the following........... I have always assumed that freight wagons were shunted similarly to passenger stock - except that there was no initial propelling movement out of the station. As the goods train didn't need to enter the platforms, the arriving train would be stopped south of the cross over points on the 'main line' the engine uncoupled from the train and would run across to the water column and turntable line. The wagons would then be lowered down into the yard controlled by the guard using the hand brake in the van - assisted by shunters 'pinning down' wagon brakes as / if required(?). After servicing the engine would cross back over to the yard to shunt the train, first removing the guards van off the wagons just arrived and letting it roll back by gravity / hand brake to the end of a suitable siding whilst the engine shunted the yard and made up the train for departure. (from memory the number of freight wagons on the daily goods train was not particularly high in the 1960s).

 

Additional information – despite the severe rising gradient facing departing trains straight off the platform end / goods yard exit there didn't seem to be any provision for assisting engines and banking, even for the 10 coaches of the 0810hrs train to Manchester and double heading of trains whist not unknown was not common practice.

 

I hope that these memories are interesting and helpful and that they may prompt someone else to verify, confirm or amend the details

Kind Regards Tony (Tony Jenkinson - Morecambe)

[BR60103]

Merlin

I'm one of the regular opertors of the Windermere station part of Lostock Junction. These links may be interesting to you.

 

 http://www.theplatelayers.org/coupling/LostockJunctionnew.pdf

 

http://www.theplatelayers.org/coupling/Lostock%20Junction%20Railway%20Revisited%20Website%20Version.pdf

 

 

Mike says that Windermere is full scale but he moved the crossovers closer to the buffer stops. He also provided a large engine facility. The station is, unfortunately, inclined in the opposite direction to the prototype, so gravity shunting doesn't work the same way.

He just sent us a history of the model; he's been working on this since 1974, one way or another. 

 

We run a speeded up version of the, I think, summer 1957 timetable. Movements are scheduled every 5 real minutes so that we can run between 10:30 and 2:30. When they drew up the timetable, they found that there seemed to be one more arrival than departure every day.

 

This is a large railway, with the "rest of Britain" in a 21'x24' room.

 

(I posted the links in another thread recently.)

Edited January 10, 2019 by BR60103

[Merlin242]

Thanks for the replies to my request for information which are both helpful. 

I had understood how the passenger trains were run round. The release crossovers were in place in pre grouping days but I have seen no photo after 1920 ish with them present. As you say they were both well up the platform. I have put them in but in the conventional position near the buffers whilst I experiment with gravitating trains. I have also deviated from reality with a larger turntable. I can always replace it later with a true scale one if I live long enough. 

The tracks are all in and about half of it ballasted now. I attach a couple of pictures to show progress although there are still a couple of details to add to 42613. I am gradually adding appropriate locos which were sheded at Oxenholme, Carnforth or Lancaster Green Ayre 

The most useful resource I have found as well as the books and the Cumbria Railway association is the Facebook group devoted to the railway https://www.facebook.com/groups/Windermere.Oxenholme.Railway/

I am currently doing some scenic work in the coal yard. This does not seem to be a typical yard with no differentiation between the large coal stocks. I know there were a number of merchants based there and would be interested to know how they made it work. Coal was the major goods traffic in the later days of steam. I am snot clear how the goods trains were gravitated  into the yard. In one raft of wagons in seperate groups?  One article I have read suggests the latter. But its hard to believe a train was left for quite a time on the main line whilst that went on. The whole process would never be allowed these days but that's part of the charm. 

 

[MarkC]

Don't forget the last steam worked passenger service - a Black 5 (45025?) was a late substitute for a failed diesel. One problem; when they got to Windermere they realised that the turntable was now disconnected, and the crew had missed this in the notices...

 

They ran the train back to Carnforth tender first - and at speed...

[Bill Jamieson]

On 04/04/2019 at 07:41, MarkC said:

Don't forget the last steam worked passenger service - a Black 5 (45025?) was a late substitute for a failed diesel. One problem; when they got to Windermere they realised that the turntable was now disconnected, and the crew had missed this in the notices...

 

They ran the train back to Carnforth tender first - and at speed...

On Monday 29th July 1968 Black 5 No. 45110 substituted for Brush Type 4 No. D1855, which had allegedly failed on Lostock Hall shed prior to working  the 08:15 Preston - Windermere. The return working was the 11:00 Windermere - Crewe (a class 1 train) which was worked tender-first to Preston. The following day 44894 was called on to rescue a dmu which had failed shortly after departing from Windermere on the 09:00 to Morecambe - it's not clear whether the Black 5 worked through to Morecambe but it appears likely (see pps 97 & 98 of 'Steam - The Grand Finale', a WH Smith/Heritage Railway bookazine published in 2008).

Bill