Bachmann J72

[2750Papyrus]

Post in this thread on 4th November and review in November RM both confirm can-type motor, otherwise I would have cancelled my order.  There is no warning in Bachmann's instructions.

[Nile]

As coreless motors come in cans that description isn't very helpful.

Feedback controllers are designed to work with older motors that react slowly to the feedback. The problem with coreless motors is they react instantly to any changes made by a feedback controller, resulting in jerkiness. RFI suppression capacitors can also interfere with feedback operation.

More openness from manufacturers would help here.

[Amand]

Just from Googling pictures of motor types, a "coreless" motor is going to have a cylindrical shape. The magnets make up the centre of the motor and the windings ar aide of a self-supporting mesh that spins around the magnet. With only the winding forming a moveable mass the motor can react faster to a change in power and load. It looks like a normal motor turned inside out.

 

Traditional motors have the magnets on the outside, attached to the outer casing. Although there are exceptions - Ringfield, where the magnets totally surround the windings - the magnets don't touch. These motors are more square shaped, to have two crescents where the magnets live.

 

If the motor in the J72 is completely cylindrical, then I'l bet this weeks pockets money* that its a "coreless" motor.  My J72 is still in the box as the railway room is in disarray until the deccies are put away, so I can't open mine up to look..

 

*the last time I was given pocket money was 1977. It wouldn't cover the cost of a stamp today.

[Mad McCann]

Gave mine a test on Wednesday on a friend’s analogue layout and it seemed pretty much fine.

Looking forward to getting it chipped. 

[Mark Hamlin]

Has anybody else fitted a Lenz Next18 chip and has figured out how to get the flickering effect working given Bachmann have hard wired the LED’s to output A and B rather than C and D?

[pauliebanger]

On 03/01/2020 at 21:40, Amand said:

Just from Googling pictures of motor types, a "coreless" motor is going to have a cylindrical shape. The magnets make up the centre of the motor and the windings ar aide of a self-supporting mesh that spins around the magnet. With only the winding forming a moveable mass the motor can react faster to a change in power and load. It looks like a normal motor turned inside out.

 

Traditional motors have the magnets on the outside, attached to the outer casing. Although there are exceptions - Ringfield, where the magnets totally surround the windings - the magnets don't touch. These motors are more square shaped, to have two crescents where the magnets live.

 

If the motor in the J72 is completely cylindrical, then I'l bet this weeks pockets money* that its a "coreless" motor.  My J72 is still in the box as the railway room is in disarray until the deccies are put away, so I can't open mine up to look..

 

*the last time I was given pocket money was 1977. It wouldn't cover the cost of a stamp today.

 

Your pocket money is safe.

 

The motor in this model is definitely coreless (as correctly stated in the review in Hornby Magazine, and by Andy York in his review).

My authentic J72 sound project has been optimised for this model with exhaust (Chuff) rate firebox flicker effect and coreless motor CVs all pre-set for plug and play simplicity.

 

This is available from Digitrains on ZIMO MX659. Couple this with their 'Stayin Alive' supercapacitor pack and you'll have a great looking and sounding model which can run without power for up to 10 seconds, so no stalling for lack of power on dirty track, points or any other 'dead sections'.

 

Cool thing is that Bachmann have included solder pads on the loco PCB to which the Stayin Alive wires can be soldered to make fitting straightforward.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[Porcy Mane]

Might be of help to some:

 

 

 

P

Edited August 10, 2022 by Porcy Mane
Replace missing pic.

[No Decorum]

2 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

Might be of help to some:

 

 

P

Lovely to see axle bearings like that.

[Daddyman]

4 hours ago, Porcy Mane said:

Might be of help to some:

 

 

P

You can go a bit further, Porcy - the boiler fittings pop off very easily, as does the s.box front. Kudos for getting the cab roof off though... 

 

I said earlier in the thread that I suspected the s.box itself came away from the boiler front but it doesn't - it's moulded as part of the latter. I also stated incorrectly that the tanks and cab seemed to be metal, whereas in fact they're plastic. 

[2750Papyrus]

For the record, I attach an email from Bachmann in response to my query.

 

"The  J72 was tested using a Gaugemaster HH feedback controller and it was noted that the running was not that smooth. But as it uses a half wave rectification, very few loco’s do run smoothly in our experience.

 

Although many modellers use feedback controllers we would suggest that any loco with a coreless motor should ideally be run on straight DC power and  that high frequency track cleaners should not be used on a layout with loco’s containing coreless motors.

 

Apologies, on checking the service sheet we have noticed that we missed out adding a line regarding the type of motor used but would suggest contacting your controllers manufacturer to see if it is compatible with this type of coreless motor. This will be added on future instruction sheets for locos using coreless motors. 

 

Many thanks for your comments and I trust this information is of interest to you."

 

[etendam]

3 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Apologies, on checking the service sheet we have noticed that we missed out adding a line regarding the type of motor used but would suggest contacting your controllers manufacturer to see if it is compatible with this type of coreless motor. This will be added on future instruction sheets for locos using coreless motors. 

 

As more and more manufacturers (Kato, Hobbytrain, Arnold, several Trix and Märklin models and lot's of others) are now switching to the coreless motors now they say in a polite way that the feedback controllers should be scrapped. As coreless motors in large quantities have the same price as the old brush motors the manufacturers are easily conviced that this is their future. Soon there will be conversion kits to convert from a coreless motor to a brush motor available.

Ed

Edited January 14, 2020 by etendam

[Legend]

5 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

For the record, I attach an email from Bachmann in response to my query.

 

"The  J72 was tested using a Gaugemaster HH feedback controller and it was noted that the running was not that smooth. But as it uses a half wave rectification, very few loco’s do run smoothly in our experience.

 

Although many modellers use feedback controllers we would suggest that any loco with a coreless motor should ideally be run on straight DC power and  that high frequency track cleaners should not be used on a layout with loco’s containing coreless motors.

 

Apologies, on checking the service sheet we have noticed that we missed out adding a line regarding the type of motor used but would suggest contacting your controllers manufacturer to see if it is compatible with this type of coreless motor. This will be added on future instruction sheets for locos using coreless motors. 

 

Many thanks for your comments and I trust this information is of interest to you."

 

 Models utilising coreless motors should be clearly marked as such, even in the description of the box label, so there is no misunderstanding.  People can then choose to avoid them if operating Feedback Controllers or HF track cleaners, rather than finding out after you’ve bought it.  If Bachmann have confidence enough to use Coreless motors they should have no hesitation in stating so . 

[etendam]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

 Models utilising coreless motors should be clearly marked as such, even in the description of the box label, so there is no misunderstanding.  People can then choose to avoid them if operating Feedback Controllers or HF track cleaners, rather than finding out after you’ve bought it.  If Bachmann have confidence enough to use Coreless motors they should have no hesitation in stating so . 

Why if almost all manufacturers are swapping to coreless motors now? Soon you can't choose anymore. As manufacturers also don't have to keep brushes in stock anymore - just spare motors.

Ed

[Legend]

5 hours ago, etendam said:

Why if almost all manufacturers are swapping to coreless motors now? Soon you can't choose anymore. As manufacturers also don't have to keep brushes in stock anymore - just spare motors.

Ed

 

No they are not

 

Hornby aren't using Coreless motors ,Heljan aren't  Dapol aren't . Bachmann don't use it for most of its range.  Model Rail/ Rapido used it on their J70

 

Yes they may be getting more popular because they are less expensive , but they are a far cry from universal.

 

On the other hand there are still numerous people using feedback controllers (isn't the main Hornby HM2000 a type of feedback controller?) and many , me included, using HF track cleaners .

 

All that I'm asking is that Coreless motors are clearly shown in a models description , so we can make an informed decision on whether to buy or not , rather than buying one and finding it doesn't work .

[etendam]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

No they are not

 

Hornby aren't using Coreless motors ,Heljan aren't  Dapol aren't . Bachmann don't use it for most of its range. 

I think this should be not yet because the larger types are still a little bit expensive that's why it started with N gauge and Arnold was one the first among a few others that introduced them. As Arnold is part of the Hornby / Bachmann group they will follow when the correct types are available for the right price! From my wifes contacts I know that a lot of testing in H0 is done at the moment.

Ed

[Legend]

1 minute ago, etendam said:

I think this should be not yet because the larger types are still a little bit expensive that's why it started with N gauge and Arnold was one the first among a few others that introduced them. As Arnold is part of the Hornby / Bachmann group they will follow when the correct types are available for the right price! From my wifes contacts I know that a lot of testing in H0 is done at the moment.

Ed

 

I can understand it in N where space is an issue . But on OO/HO I reckon its more about cost.   Consumers should get a say in this . Its not  necessarily true they will all go coreless

[iak]

To another matter, anyone going to etch some replacement coupling rods? The ones on these models look hideous!

[Porcy Mane]

15 minutes ago, iak said:

To another matter, anyone going to etch some replacement coupling rods?

 

I've asked.

In the mean time I'm going to give Mr F's CR21 universals a go. There's plenty of meat around the boss to accommodate Bachmanns crankpins.  (For which I have a plan!) A bit of filing to get rid of the fish belly should see things looking a bit more prototypical.

 

But then the best laid plans etc.

[Daddyman]

1 hour ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

I've asked.

In the mean time I'm going to give Mr F's CR21 universals a go. There's plenty of meat around the boss to accommodate Bachmanns crankpins.  (For which I have a plan!) A bit of filing to get rid of the fish belly should see things looking a bit more prototypical.

 

But then the best laid plans etc.

I had a plan too, based on Hornby's J36, where you can replace their hideous "cranknuts" with Romford crankpins (same thread), and then fit scale rods. However, the Bachmann wheels have a large boss cast integral with the wheel, which scuppers that plan rather. My solution is a full chassis replacement with an MT kit which I had lying around. Although it's cheap (£18 or so) it's a false economy as you still have to pay for a gearbox, which the High Level chassis has included in the £42 price tag (? I assume), and some of the holes on the MT chassis (those associated with the brakes) are etched too large; there's also no provision for the later (and more common) brake rigging. 

[Porcy Mane]

6 minutes ago, Daddyman said:

My solution is a full chassis replacement with an MT kit which I had lying around.

`

My MT chassis now complete but still sitting in the "cupboard of dreams"* unpainted.

 

* Full credit to RN of the South Pelaw boys for coming up with this term.

 

[Silver Sidelines]

12 hours ago, etendam said:

......As manufacturers also don't have to keep brushes in stock anymore - just spare motors.

Ed

  Dream on.....after nearly two years of waiting and being told by Hornby that they will have some spare motors for the Q6 they finally admitted that I would have to look elsewhere.  As to Heljan - try getting a replacement motor for their Claytons.

 

Ray

[micklner]

13 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

  Dream on.....after nearly two years of waiting and being told by Hornby that they will have some spare motors for the Q6 they finally admitted that I would have to look elsewhere.  As to Heljan - try getting a replacement motor for their Claytons.

 

Ray

Q6 motors on ebay £7 inc postage. You need to put the worm on from the old motor (detail n Q6 thread).

[Mad McCann]

This wee lassie scrubs up well; no question of that! 

 

Davy

[etendam]

7 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

  Dream on.....after nearly two years of waiting and being told by Hornby that they will have some spare motors for the Q6 they finally admitted that I would have to look elsewhere.  As to Heljan - try getting a replacement motor for their Claytons.

 

Ray

 

Ray - Before you say something like this please first zoom in what is happening in the motor markets.....

 

Japan has been for years the country where most traditional 3 and 5 pole motors came from. Most manufacturers have facilities full of coil winding machines. They are facing huge competition from China for the last decade and several are struggle to survive. Motors from China are sold for a fraction of the Japanese prices. At the same time Chinese manufacturers are investing (with a lot of help from their government!) in machines that are suitable for making coreless motors as the patents that Faulhaber and Maxon used are expired! Chinese coreless Motors in the 1.5 to 3V range are available starting from $ 0.10 a piece and are made by billions for toys, drones and other industries.

 

With this terrible competition and the Chinese factories taking over the Japanese orders in the low voltage range, the Japanese factories must decide if they scrap their old coil winding machines and swap to other machines suitable for making coreless motors as they simply can't keep a production facility open for just 12 Volt railway motors as their output must be in the dozens of millions range to make the company profitable. Another problem that most Japenese companies have is that they are usually traditional family businesses and if you want to take over this type of company the investors will simply not invest in factories that can only produce traditional motors anymore. This is why several established companies are ceasing their production or company. (Examples enough on the forum here)

 

The price of traditional motors in China are slowly rising and the prices of coreless motors are dropping. So for sure Hornby can say that they will keep sticking to their old motors NOW but they also know very well what is happening in the market. No wonder that several Model railroad manufacturers are having difficulties sourcing their spare motors and simply have to say to their costumers sorry out of stock and this will happen more and more as the motors will dry out in the next decade.

 

So before making comments what you think will happen in the market next time first look what is actually happening in the market and this is why I say that in a couple of years all motors are coreless! (and perhaps some after market companies earn money with making conversion kits to swap a coreless motor to a traditional motor for those who want to stick to their old motor types because they can't run models with their controller )

 

Ed

 

 

[Silver Sidelines]

12 hours ago, etendam said:

 

Ray - Before you say something like this please first zoom in what is happening in the motor markets....

 

 

 

 Hi Edam you seem to have missed the point, even with cheap motors available Hornby and Heljan are not willing to provide replacement motors.  Given past performance I don't see this changing .  Nothing to do with changing to coreless motors.

 

Cheers Ray

Edited January 16, 2020 by Silver Sidelines